Once and for all!

[rossaroni]

I know his cousin Bobby lost to Billie Jean King in tennis when he made the same boast. And Bobby was a shortstop tennis player who also thought he could beat any woman in the world.QUOTE]

Bobby was a little better then a shortstop tennis player....in the 1940's! He was once ranked the number one player when he was younger, but he was 55 years old when he played a much younger Billie Jean King. There are also rumors that he dumped the match because he bet a lot of money on her to win. I also recall hearing somewhere that he smoked two packs a day. To say that Billie Jean King could compete with the top men was a little bit of a stretch, even though she beat a retired former pro. People use this as an example, but this match was a joke, and didn't really prove too much, except that Riggs was too old and out of shape to beat the top women in 1973. I don't know if King could compete with the top men, but playing Riggs, did not prove this at all. If Allison beats Efren in ten years, does this prove that she is a better player then he was?

 

[Johnnyt]

These female vs Male threads are interesting to read for me for sure...but never really prove anything. I think the real question here should be ...do the top ten women players in the world have a chance to be competitive in open events. Do they have a chance to make the final 16 in the big ones like DCC, Turning Stone, US Open (if made women & men), and the few other biggies? We all ready know they can compete (final 8 or better) in the regional tours. I say this because it looks to me like that this is where the top ten or so women are going to try to see if they can compete or not.

We have seen that some of the women can win matches over the 30 or so top tier men in tournaments already. If a dozen of the women played all the opens they could for a few years, we would have an answer. I believe that the six women could make it in the opens for sure and only get better as they become more comfortable playing men. I think this would be a tremendous boost to the game and fun to watch.

As far as any woman right now beating a top tier male in long races or ten ahead sets...I don?t believe they can. When I was playing my best pool I don?t believe I would have been called a weak shortstop on a nine-footer. On a bar table I was a lot better. Over the years I beat the dozen or so women on tour on the bar tables that I played. On the nine-footers...not so much. Also when I was playing my best pool the women were nowhere as good as they are today. Johnnyt

 

[JB Cases]

Bobby was a little better then a shortstop tennis player....in the 1940's! He was once ranked the number one player when he was younger, but he was 55 years old when he played a much younger Billie Jean King. There are also rumors that he dumped the match because he bet a lot of money on her to win. I also recall hearing somewhere that he smoked two packs a day. To say that Billie Jean King could compete with the top men was a little bit of a stretch, even though she beat a retired former pro. People use this as an example, but this match was a joke, and didn't really prove too much, except that Riggs was too old and out of shape to beat the top women in 1973. I don't know if King could compete with the top men, but playing Riggs, did not prove this at all. If Allison beats Efren in ten years, does this prove that she is a better player then he was?

You're totally right. The Riggs/King match isn't a fair comparison to pool.

The real comparison I think is Bryan's chauvinist attitude and Rigg's. As whether Bobby dumped or not let's just say that in pool this is far more likely to be considered by players and side bettors as well. That would be my concern IF I were betting on the guy. Thankfully, I have the No Dumping Possible side of this matchup.

Tennis however is a truly physical sport where I have no problem saying that the top men can and probably always will outperform the top women.

Pool has no such barrier. None. Some of the women break better than most of the men. There is no physical impediment to playing top notch pool for a healthy woman. Some of the top flight male pool players have bigger breasts than most of the women competing and most of the men have bigger bellies.

The only place where women are handicapped as far as top notch pool goes is that there aren't as many of them playing and they have to fade major amounts of attitude when trying to seriously compete. The odds are completely against a woman coming out and being as good as Johhny Archer.

Why?

Because to put it simply it's much harder for a woman to get serious instruction and experience even in today's "enlightened" world. And with less women playing and it being super hard to be able to compete with top players without the attitude and chauvinism what are the odds that a super talent will emerge who can truly hang and even dominate a field of super talents? Men who didn't have to fade the crap comments and the sexism while getting better, men who were encouraged and constantly pushed to get better?

I know that if the playing conditions were the same then there would be a relatively equal number of top players of both genders. IF there were an equal number of both sexes playing serious pool then there would an equal number of top players. There has never been and is likely to never be an equal number of men and women playing serious pool though so the women will continue to be in the minority and will continue to have the odds against them.

I am sure though that if someone like Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, or Kelly Fisher had the same amount of in-the-trenches gambling at all venues, hard-won road experience then they would be top 50 players easily if not top ten. Why do I say this? Because those three have the insane talent that Johnny, Alex, and Shane have, they just haven't had the place to have that talent formed in the same way as the men I mentioned.

Anyway that's my opinion on it and it's a far cry from "once and for all" and "never evers".

 

[JB Cases]

These female vs Male threads are interesting to read for me for sure...but never really prove anything. I think the real question here should be ...do the top ten women players in the world have a chance to be competitive in open events. Do they have a chance to make the final 16 in the big ones like DCC, Turning Stone, US Open (if made women & men), and the few other biggies? We all ready know they can compete (final 8 or better) in the regional tours. I say this because it looks to me like that this is where the top ten or so women are going to try to see if they can compete or not.

We have seen that some of the women can win matches over the 30 or so top tier men in tournaments already. If a dozen of the women played all the opens they could for a few years, we would have an answer. I believe that the six women could make it in the opens for sure and only get better as they become more comfortable playing men. I think this would be a tremendous boost to the game and fun to watch.

As far as any woman right now beating a top tier male in long races or ten ahead sets...I don?t believe they can. When I was playing my best pool I don?t believe I would have been called a weak shortstop on a nine-footer. On a bar table I was a lot better. Over the years I beat the dozen or so women on tour on the bar tables that I played. On the nine-footers...not so much. Also when I was playing my best pool the women were nowhere as good as they are today. Johnnyt

http://www.totalpool.info/tours/points_list.asp?t=1&s=22

http://www.totalpool.info/tours/money_list.asp?t=1&s=22

And she doesn't even play in all the events. I don't know how she has done in the Turning Stone events in the past but I'd guess it's pretty good.

Karen is about the only one who is "regularly" mixing it up with the men and there are an awful lot of GOOD players below her on that tour.

Sure the top women have the talent to go deep in the majors. And the more that they play against that top competition the better that they will get.

But remember what Bryan said or implied? It's a fluke if a woman beats a man in a short set remember? It's only a contest if a Man beats a Woman after many hours of play. So it means nothing when a Karen Corr beats a Mika Immonen in the finals of a tournement, or when she double dips Jim Rempe two set to 11 to win a tournament - not to mention all the other great players she had to beat to get there. All that means nothing because she's clearly inferior and would NEVER EVER win in a long ahead set.

Well boys - I bet the following - SOMEBODY stake Bryan White and put him on the Joss Tour and I bet that he does not finish the year higher than Karen Corr on either the money list or the points list.

I have $5000 to bet on this proposition? Any takers? That's two PLAYERS against the field and each other. The odds are exactly the same. No weight, no BS. Well, the odds are a little better for Bryan since he doesn't have a pro tour to attend. So I guess I am giving a little weight there.

 

[Varney Cues]

Last time this debate came up someone mentioned that Derek Leonard in Norht Carolina could beat Allison. I just played him tonight and asked him for his opinion on the matter. He said it all depended on what she would spot him. It takes a damn good player to beat that woman.

Well Chew did beat the other Fisher. He came to Kelly Fisher's home room and played her an ahead set. He won rather quickly if I recall correctly.

 

[JB Cases]

Well Chew did beat the other Fisher. He came to Kelly Fisher's home room and played her an ahead set. He won rather quickly if I recall correctly.

True - he did and I was betting on Kelly. That day his break was firing on all cylinders and Kelly could not overcome it.

But people should know the rest of the story as well. We had agreed to play for $5000 and had the money posted.

Derek showed up without his backer and we waited and waited and waited and basically Kelly sat there for four hours while Derek tried to get his backer to show up. At the end we agreed to play for $1200 which is all that the guys with Derek could put together.

Then after Derek won we asked to play with alternate breaks - and the answer was no. He probably would have played but his backers, being on rather short money wanted no part of it, they didn't want to give an inch to Kelly Fisher in any fashion.

I have no doubt in my mind that Kelly can beat Derek as much as he can beat her. On any given day either of them are likely to win.

On that day Derek's break was the key and he was playing six ball - on another day Kelly's might be there and the set would go the other way.

Kelly did dog it a little too and I can tell you that the ONLY REASON was because of the fact that she was put on ice for four hours and didn't really want to play after that nonsense.

You all ask Derek what HE THINKS of Kelly Fisher's game and if HE THINKS that there are 500 men in the world that can beat Kelly Fisher all day and night.

 

[Johnnyt]

Karen Corr came in 5th at Turning Stone in 2007. There weren't too many of the top players from around the world that were not there. The lady can play. Johnnyt

 

[catscradle]

Last I looked Ga Young Kim is not Allison or Karen. Good job with beating her though. It sounds like you are saying male B players are the same as women pros......you are not serious right?

I drew SVB in the first round of the Reno Bar Table 9 Ball last year...he beat me 9-7....then beat some top pros 9-3....so that means I am better than them right?

I would not say Alison, Karen, and some others are just "B" players (whatever a "B" player is), but I would say most of the women pros fall in this category, maybe strong "B" players, but not consistent "A" players. Karen plays (or at least used to) the Joss tour frequently, she wins it once in a while but not with regularity and it is usually an "A" player that wins it.
I think the point being made is that the best men are better than the best women, and the average man is better than the average woman. I also think the further you go down the bell curve of skill, the greater the disparity becomes. Yes, the best women can beat the best men, but not with regularity.
On the other hand, Alison or Karen or maybe ANY of the women pros could kick my butt every day of the week.

 

[corvette1340]

JB Cases,
You sir flip flop more than a ten dollar whore on a bouncy mattress. First you say that Kelly can beat Brian and you are willing to bet a lot on it. Then after finding out that she wanted the 7, ask if Brian will play her snooker and berade him for not giving her the 7! Try and stay with your initial opinion at least, instead of backtracking when you find out that she is not the favorite by trying to make different games. You also misconstrue comments made by Brian to try and belittle him. He said that the top women can't compete with the top men. He also said that he didn't consider himself in the top 500, which is humble, IMO. That being said, he also challenged any of the top women. So by the transitive property, he and you proved the point of the thread. If Brian is willing to play any of them then think what kind of weight they would need from Shane, Alex, Efren, Yang, etc...
If you can get in touch with Kelly and she wants to play even then I'm sure a lot of people will step up to cover all that you can tote. And as to your comment about the dumping, I consider Brian one of 3-4 players that I would bet everything I've got on and not worry about dumping.

 

[JB Cases]

JB Cases,
You sir flip flop more than a ten dollar whore on a bouncy mattress. First you say that Kelly can beat Brian and you are willing to bet a lot on it. Then after finding out that she wanted the 7, ask if Brian will play her snooker and berade him for not giving her the 7! Try and stay with your initial opinion at least, instead of backtracking when you find out that she is not the favorite by trying to make different games. You also misconstrue comments made by Brian to try and belittle him. He said that the top women can't compete with the top men. He also said that he didn't consider himself in the top 500, which is humble, IMO. That being said, he also challenged any of the top women. So by the transitive property, he and you proved the point of the thread. If Brian is willing to play any of them then think what kind of weight they would need from Shane, Alex, Efren, Yang, etc...
If you can get in touch with Kelly and she wants to play even then I'm sure a lot of people will step up to cover all that you can tote. And as to your comment about the dumping, I consider Brian one of 3-4 players that I would bet everything I've got on and not worry about dumping.

cough cough cough - bs.

I said I think Kelly can beat Brian. I still think that. That hasn't changed. I merely upbraded Bryan for coming on here and saying that HE is better than she (and ALL other women players) but then refuses to give up any weight.

Where I come from a player who only wants to steal is a lock artist. If Kelly has NO CHANCE to win playing even then why not give her a little weight?

I don't care where Bryan considers himself to be - where he SAID he is is better than all the women who play pool. Others consider Bryan to be pro speed - so why won't he give up the 7? Can you say lock artist?

Billy Incardona came on here and gave up his opinion that there aren't 500 men on Earth better than Allison. But that means nothing because all of you know more about pool than Billy does.

The whole premise of the thread is Bryan White expounding on his chauvinistic views on women's pool. You should try reading a little deeper to see who is doing the flip flopping here.

Bryan, the underrated shortstop who regularly slaughters pros who venture too close to where he lives, said no woman would EVER win 7 ahead set with the likes of Johnny and co. Then a few posts later he says that he will play any woman and bet the farm playing 20 ahead. I call that backpedaling. But then I apparently read things a little bit differently.

Don't worry about it Vette. I think Bryan will wilt under the heat when the cameras are on him and Kelly Fisher is putting racks on him. But IF I am part of it then there won't be any playing for $10,000. We will play for money that hurts when you lose. And you can have all of Bryan's side that you want. Even no spot.

I can berate anyone I want to who comes on here and crows that they are BETTER and then won't give up any weight to make a FAIR game. Kelly isn't going around talking about all the people she beat, and she has beat some people giving UP weight. She isn't on here talking smack about being better than x-group of people.

So ONCE and FOR ALL - IF you are going to SAY you are BETTER than someone then make a FAIR game.

Class is the difference between Kelly Fisher and Bryan White and is the reason she is on TV all the time and he is not. The same thing applies to Shane Van Boeing as the reason he gets the press and the accolades. He exudes class.

 

[JB Cases]

Karen Corr came in 5th at Turning Stone in 2007. There weren't too many of the top players from around the world that were not there. The lady can play. Johnnyt

She got lucky - all the men had the flu and their stroking arms were in casts. Mike made the races to 3 because Karen was in the field.

Bryan White wasn't there or she would have been out in the first round.

Everyone knows that women can only get lucky in tournaments - there is no way she could that deep in a full field of champions unless it was races to 2.

What were the races again? 9 and 11 and 13 I think???? How did she do that??? I guess maybe she can play a little bit.

 

[iba7467]

IF I were in the States and I had enough money I would let Bryan play Kelly Fisher even up - no spot - 100 games for $1000 per game. I 'might' lose but then again Bryan might get his nuts shot off when Kelly starts hitting him with runs of 3 and 4 and plays safe and then another 3 pack and so on.

I think Bryan is a good shortstop but he won't even begin to fade the heat Kelly will put on him when he realizes he trapped himself into a LONG session where she absorbs whatever little bit that he knows that she doesn't yet.

...

I will make it a goal in 2008 to see if we can't Mr. White matched up since he so desperately wants to beat a woman.

Mr. Barton, this is what you said earlier. You mentioned no need of a spot here. I have refrained from entering this argument since I don't believe this match would ever happen, but you can believe you can bet your limit if it does.

 

[corvette1340]

yeah Iba, he first states that he wants to bet on Kelly even then gives Brian (there is no Y in Brian by the way JB) hell for not wanting to give up a spot. LMAO.

 

[9_Ball_King]

Put it down and back away....get some help

the BEST 500 or so pool players on this planet are ALL male.

OK you can put down the crack pipe now. You have some serious male/female issues dude

It's ridiculous for anyone to say that Allison Fisher is not one of the best 500 pool players on the planet.....lunacy I say.

 

[corvette1340]

JB,
I assume that you sponsor Kelly Fisher? Amirite? If not, I have an idea for your next case for her. Whatcha think?

 

[JB Cases]

Mr. Barton, this is what you said earlier. You mentioned no need of a spot here. I have refrained from entering this argument since I don't believe this match would ever happen, but you can believe you can bet your limit if it does.

I didn't mention a "need" for a spot anywhere else either. Brian with an I said that he went to NC to play Kelly and that "her backer" wouldn't let her play without the 7. Since Brian didn't mention giving her the 7 or any other weight for that matter then I can only assume that no game took place.

I questioned WHY Brian would state or infer that he is the better player and yet be unwilling to give up weight.

I don't think that you will find anywhere in this thread where I said that I wanted to bet only IF Brian gives up weight. I don't think Kelly needs weight to beat Brian - I said that ten times already. I just happen to think it's a bit confusing as to WHY a player proclaims that he is better but then won't give up weight.

See IBA if I was running around claiming to be better than you without you barking back then I think I would be expected to give up weight if I wanted to get you to the table. Unless I wanted to steal your money then I wouldn't give you anything.

If you or Vette can quote one sentence where I said I will bet only when Kelly gets weight then I will paypal you and Corvette each $50 right now and post the transaction details on this thread.

I love y'all but when it gets into the what did he say part of this I can spot all of you the rainbow and I am stone cold stealing.

 

[crawfish]

The reason people on this forum disagree so much on the man / woman issue is that everyone is not listening. To the people who defend the woman......... Everyone on here knows that any man or woman can beat another in a tournament. They are short races and no one is disputing that anyone can win. So for you to get on this forum and announce " Oh look, a woman just beat a pro in a tournament" is useless.
But, listen up very carefully. Any woman could "career" it and beat tiger woods 18 hole of golf. Does this mean she's as good as tiger? Please!
What we are saying is that anyone can win in a tournament, but, the BEST 500 or so pool players on this planet are ALL male. Don't go by a tournament, play a 7 or 8 ahead 7 days in a row and see what happens. IT WOULD BE 500-0. Yes i'm saying it, pick your best woman and if she played the top men 7 or 8 ahead 7 days in a row she would NEVER win.
That's why a lot of people on here are tired of hearing this issue.

Damn, B. I couldn't have phrased it better myself. I'm gonna look you up at the Palace and buy you a beer next time I get to G'ville.

 

[Matya]

I do agree that the top men play better then the top women, it seems a different style of a game. Nevertheless I have loads of respect for the top female players' game. Nobody mentioned that Jasmine finished 5th at the world championship of 14.1 - playing with men (somebody correct me if I am mistaken).

I am a woman (play like a woman ) and find this thread rather motivating to improve. Can not wait to get to the pool hall tonight

 

[crawfish]

Those people that think women have a chance are not good pool players..thats the plain truth..

Ask the top 100 male players and they will tell you the truth..A women can't beat good male players over any period of time.. The women play on the softest conditions possible on t.v.. A good shortstop in any major city in america could win a ladies event if he played. Thats the plain truth. Those here disagreeing can't run out so their thoughts don't really matter.Only players know the scoop so all you bangers keep dreaming.

Luv ya! I've said it a thousand times. However, I wouldn't refer to most of these guys as bangers. I do believe that most shortstops could be in the top five on the women's tour. Let's end this. Someone get one of the women to match up and play John Schmidt, or Johnny, or somebody.

 

[corvette1340]

I do agree that the top men play better then the top women, it seems a different style of a game. Nevertheless I have loads of respect for the top female players' game. Nobody mentioned that Jasmine finished 5th at the world championship of 14.1 - playing with men (somebody correct me if I am mistaken).

I am a woman (play like a woman ) and find this thread rather motivating to improve. Can not wait to get to the pool hall tonight

I have a tremendous amount of respect for the females also. I just think its silly when people talk about how they could compete with the men in the long haul. If there were no womens tours and the ladies had to play stricly with the men, then there wouldn't be any women playing in a year or two because they would be broke. If that seems disrepectful to anyone then so be it, but it is the plain truth.