one master craftsman vs a crew

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Silver Member
I have many years experience with this, have owned a half-dozen shops where perfection was the standard myself. I have also dealt with master craftsmen since the early seventies.

A one man or forty man shop means little until the one man shop builds a reputation. Then the shop rises and falls on his reputation. He can take in a partner and if they both seek perfection it still works. However, any time you have a crew of people working on a project, quality invariably suffers compared to a single master craftsman. Nobody is fully responsible for the work and most of the people doing the work don't have their name and their reputation on the line.

A fine example is the realm of gunsmithing. Quite a few people rise to the rank of master gunsmith, capable of doing world class work. Naturally the world beats a path to their door. A huge backlog and bringing in people to help often follows. Shortly thereafter without fail crap starts going out their door. Sometimes it is a small percentage of their items, sometimes large, but when the master loses tight control, quality suffers. A fine example closer to home is Meucci cues. I owned an early one, a nice cue even if it did have a noodle shaft that took getting used to. When he tried to expand using a crew quality took a nose dive and the result is the 363 threads on this forum.(An estimate, not an actual count :D )

There are dozens of other areas I can give examples in including my own auto body shops. One maintained a six month waiting list to bring a car in the door until I sold the business. My problem was simple, if an experienced body person could look at the work from arm's length and see a car had been repaired the person that did the work wasn't qualified to work at my shop. There were limits to how much work three of us could turn out and that was the most people I ever had at one time that could meet my demands. I fired a body shop instructor with over twenty years of experience as an auto body instructor and many years working in the trade. I also fired the former foreman of a large local new car dealership's body shop. Master craftsmen are damned hard to come by.

Compare master craftsmen to the numbers for the powerball. One number is pretty easy to hit. Two numbers can be done. The odds of getting six in one place was one in 80 million. They decided that was too easy and made it much tougher. It may not be as tough to get six master craftsmen in one place without a stinker in the bunch but I have yet to see a six man crew that were all top notch after pushing crews for decades. By far the very best I have ever done was hire 20 out of 24 good workers for a construction project. They were far from 20 masters, just 20 willing to try.

If you do business with a one man shop and that man is a master craftsman, every bit of the work will be done by a master craftsman. If you go to a shop with a master craftsman at it's head and six people assisting him not only is it likely that he won't do all of the work on your project, most likely much of the work will be done piecemeal by multiple workers with none of them accepting responsibility for the final product. "Good enough" becomes acceptable for their part of the project and unfortunately "good enough" rarely is.

One major reason I sold my body shop that was making money by the bucketful and had super financial security was the frustration over finding quality people to assist me. In years I had one other man capable of turning out consistent finished work at the level I demanded. The third or fourth person was usually just there to run parts or help disassemble damaged vehicles. I owned the real estate and had the room to hire six men and to expand my shop to hire dozens. Never happened because I was more interested in being the best shop in the area than the biggest. The man that bought my shop but not my name quickly expanded it into a large shop doing so-so work. No doubt he made a lot more money than I did although I had the second highest shop rate I knew of when I was in business. The only person with a higher rate was an old master with a one man shop . . . .

Hu
 
There is a good reason you don't see that many master craftsmen working together.
Most of your master craftsmen are going to go out on their own.

just my humble opinion.
 
Seems like you are passionate about cues, would you make me one?
I want it made from 40 plus years of aged wood. Will pay extra for more. Don't need wrap. Thanks.
 
I have many years experience with this, have owned a half-dozen shops where perfection was the standard myself. I have also dealt with master craftsmen since the early seventies.

A one man or forty man shop means little until the one man shop builds a reputation. Then the shop rises and falls on his reputation. He can take in a partner and if they both seek perfection it still works. However, any time you have a crew of people working on a project, quality invariably suffers compared to a single master craftsman. Nobody is fully responsible for the work and most of the people doing the work don't have their name and their reputation on the line.

A fine example is the realm of gunsmithing. Quite a few people rise to the rank of master gunsmith, capable of doing world class work. Naturally the world beats a path to their door. A huge backlog and bringing in people to help often follows. Shortly thereafter without fail crap starts going out their door. Sometimes it is a small percentage of their items, sometimes large, but when the master loses tight control, quality suffers. A fine example closer to home is Meucci cues. I owned an early one, a nice cue even if it did have a noodle shaft that took getting used to. When he tried to expand using a crew quality took a nose dive and the result is the 363 threads on this forum.(An estimate, not an actual count :D )

There are dozens of other areas I can give examples in including my own auto body shops. One maintained a six month waiting list to bring a car in the door until I sold the business. My problem was simple, if an experienced body person could look at the work from arm's length and see a car had been repaired the person that did the work wasn't qualified to work at my shop. There were limits to how much work three of us could turn out and that was the most people I ever had at one time that could meet my demands. I fired a body shop instructor with over twenty years of experience as an auto body instructor and many years working in the trade. I also fired the former foreman of a large local new car dealership's body shop. Master craftsmen are damned hard to come by.

Compare master craftsmen to the numbers for the powerball. One number is pretty easy to hit. Two numbers can be done. The odds of getting six in one place was one in 80 million. They decided that was too easy and made it much tougher. It may not be as tough to get six master craftsmen in one place without a stinker in the bunch but I have yet to see a six man crew that were all top notch after pushing crews for decades. By far the very best I have ever done was hire 20 out of 24 good workers for a construction project. They were far from 20 masters, just 20 willing to try.

If you do business with a one man shop and that man is a master craftsman, every bit of the work will be done by a master craftsman. If you go to a shop with a master craftsman at it's head and six people assisting him not only is it likely that he won't do all of the work on your project, most likely much of the work will be done piecemeal by multiple workers with none of them accepting responsibility for the final product. "Good enough" becomes acceptable for their part of the project and unfortunately "good enough" rarely is.

One major reason I sold my body shop that was making money by the bucketful and had super financial security was the frustration over finding quality people to assist me. In years I had one other man capable of turning out consistent finished work at the level I demanded. The third or fourth person was usually just there to run parts or help disassemble damaged vehicles. I owned the real estate and had the room to hire six men and to expand my shop to hire dozens. Never happened because I was more interested in being the best shop in the area than the biggest. The man that bought my shop but not my name quickly expanded it into a large shop doing so-so work. No doubt he made a lot more money than I did although I had the second highest shop rate I knew of when I was in business. The only person with a higher rate was an old master with a one man shop . . . .

Hu

This is a very good assessment of how things can go. It's very difficult to constantly stay on top of a crew and get them to understand why the quality must be there.

One way I do it is by paying more than everyone else. This lets my people know I value them and their work enough to pay well for it.

What is your position on one-man shops where the proprietor is not a master craftsman?

Would you also say that there were shops other than yours where the work was done by one person but it was generally inferior to yours?
 
This is a very good assessment of how things can go. It's very difficult to constantly stay on top of a crew and get them to understand why the quality must be there.

One way I do it is by paying more than everyone else. This lets my people know I value them and their work enough to pay well for it.

What is your position on one-man shops where the proprietor is not a master craftsman?

Would you also say that there were shops other than yours where the work was done by one person but it was generally inferior to yours?

The very first thing I said after the introduction to my thread: "A one man or forty man shop means little until the one man shop builds a reputation. Then the shop rises and falls on his reputation."

Also from my first post: "If you do business with a one man shop and that man is a master craftsman, every bit of the work will be done by a master craftsman." The obvious conclusion is that if the person isn't a master craftsman then none of the work is done by a master.

Seems like you are passionate about cues, would you make me one?
I want it made from 40 plus years of aged wood. Will pay extra for more. Don't need wrap. Thanks.

Funny you should say that, I have some wood that is over forty years old. Should be about enough to make a dozen cues. Unfortunately all of my equipment is in storage awaiting the building of my new shop. My new shop will be built at the same time or right after my new home sixty miles up the road. My new home will be built as soon as my present one is sold. The way things are looking right now it may be 50+ year old wood before I get to use it. Blame it on the gubment! I do have a fairly short list of people who have requested cues built. However at my present rate of production there is roughly a five year minimum wait! :wink:

Hu
 
The very first thing I said after the introduction to my thread: "A one man or forty man shop means little until the one man shop builds a reputation. Then the shop rises and falls on his reputation."

Also from my first post: "If you do business with a one man shop and that man is a master craftsman, every bit of the work will be done by a master craftsman." The obvious conclusion is that if the person isn't a master craftsman then none of the work is done by a master.



Funny you should say that, I have some wood that is over forty years old. Should be about enough to make a dozen cues. Unfortunately all of my equipment is in storage awaiting the building of my new shop. My new shop will be built at the same time or right after my new home sixty miles up the road. My new home will be built as soon as my present one is sold. The way things are looking right now it may be 50+ year old wood before I get to use it. Blame it on the gubment! I do have a fairly short list of people who have requested cues built. However at my present rate of production there is roughly a five year minimum wait! :wink:

Hu



Hello Hu, good to see you posting again, I hope all is well.

Oh and by the way, I have a piece of wood that is currently 51 years old and will turn 52 September of this year, and your are certainly right there nothing better than old wood, at least that is what I have been told!!!:D
 
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There IS some truth to what you posted Hu, which is why I work alone...and my list is so long...there's a lot of customers I'll never get to see...but I will ALWAYS stay busy...as busy as I want to be that is;):grin:

Glen
 
Where are you

There IS some truth to what you posted Hu, which is why I work alone...and my list is so long...there's a lot of customers I'll never get to see...but I will ALWAYS stay busy...as busy as I want to be that is;):grin:

Glen[/QUOTE"]there's a lot of customers I'll never get to see."...Glen..I hope I'm not one of your customers that you'll never see...I've been waiting patiently for your arrival to New York. Can you PM me with an ETA.

Ron in New York
 
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Funny you should say that, I have some wood that is over forty years old. Should be about enough to make a dozen cues. Unfortunately all of my equipment is in storage awaiting the building of my new shop. My new shop will be built at the same time or right after my new home sixty miles up the road. My new home will be built as soon as my present one is sold. The way things are looking right now it may be 50+ year old wood before I get to use it. Blame it on the gubment! I do have a fairly short list of people who have requested cues built. However at my present rate of production there is roughly a five year minimum wait! :wink:

Hu

Good Gawd! You're way ahead of the pack if you have wood that precious. Put me on the list please. Btw, now that online is dead are you hitting the live games? Whats in new awleens?
 
Just getting to the live play

Good Gawd! You're way ahead of the pack if you have wood that precious. Put me on the list please. Btw, now that online is dead are you hitting the live games? Whats in new awleens?

Just getting around to live play. I was holding my own in a LPT tournament last week and in position to make a move when I just got too tired to continue. Decided the hell with it, the next hand with potential I was either making a move or going home, I wasn't sitting another two or three hours waiting. I figured my odds at not worse than 3-1 and shoved a few hands later. I went home and found why I was so tired, blood pressure 90 over 50. When it gets that low I run out of gas. It bounced between low and high all the next day but I finally got it settled down.

WSOP was in New Orleans for two weeks last month. I didn't play but did go meet a few people. Harrah's is as soft as ever except it tightened up a bit with the WSOP in town. I'm trying to get into some home games, one reason for playing on the Louisiana Poker Tour. Oh yeah, and I'm kicking ass and taking names on the free play at FullTilt! :D :D :D

Just want to keep my hand in figuring internet poker will return in three to five years and I'm curious to see if I will find any tougher players when I get to the higher levels that you can't rebuy into. Must be a few other folks like me, I'm finding one or two decent players in some of the play money sit and goes. A handful have lasted past the break with two or three players. I'm playing it like it is real and building my "bankroll". I have fifteen thousand and a handful of tourney tickets and will move up to higher stakes this week. Been at it off and on playing one or two nights a week for a couple weeks starting at $250 sit and goes. Moved to $1000 yesterday and ran good. Should be at $3000 to $10,000 in a couple weeks where I'm hoping people will hate losing bankrolls they can't replace with a click of a button.

I know it is sad dinking with play money but I was feeling very tempted to throw away a hundred bucks to play on one of the few sites that will still take US players and decided to give this a try first since I'm skeptical of ever making a withdrawal and have money sitting at FullTilt and Absolute already. I'll probably get bored if competition doesn't improve but multi-tabling without a HUD and trying to keep up with playing styles is pretty intense for me right now. I don't take notes or bother with names so it's kinda fun practicing how fast I can separate the wheat from the chaff each table and I'm hoping it helps my live reads. The online play was more about competition than dollars at the levels I was playing anyway so if I can find some competition I'll be happy.

One funny con, I'm thinking about Zynga. The competition is terrible but there is a good real money market for Zynga play money. For that matter if anybody wants to give me two-bits on the dollar for my FullTilt and Absolute cash it can be had! :grin:

Hu
 
learned a long time ago

There IS some truth to what you posted Hu, which is why I work alone...and my list is so long...there's a lot of customers I'll never get to see...but I will ALWAYS stay busy...as busy as I want to be that is;):grin:

Glen


Glen,

I learned when I was just a lad that there was always a market for quality. Try to compete on price and there is always somebody that will do it cheaper even if they lose money doing it. Charge a fair price for top quality work and not only will you be happy with your work, as you know folks will stand in line and wait for it. I never thought that people would wait six months to have a car repaired that was a daily driver but I kept an inch and a half to two inch thick stack of single sheet estimates representing people willing to do just that.

When I called for someone to bring in a car it went back out on time, two days to two weeks depending on the size of the job. I can only remember missing a deadline once when a supplier lied to my shop foreman about parts. A rare car and the parts were hell to find when the ones that were supposed to be lined up weren't there. Made the job a week late and I did fourteen hours of work on one fender, a never to be forgotten or repeated event! Think of somebody showing you a pile of kindling and some gravel that once was table slates and wanting their "table" fixed. :D

Hu
 
The one-man shop, be he a master craftsman case maker, or cue maker. When might product quality begin to suffer should he decide to hire assistants, or maybe the question might be, when would he start spreading himself too thin? :)
 
diaper question!

The one-man shop, be he a master craftsman case maker, or cue maker. When might product quality begin to suffer should he decide to hire assistants, or maybe the question might be, when would he start spreading himself too thin? :)


"Depends" of course!

A one man band or any size shop for that matter has to be very careful about overpromising and under delivering. I always give myself a large fudge factor and am almost always on time or early. As for adding people, they have to be added slowly and each one has to be supervised doing small tasks before letting them do larger assignments. A friend spent two years in vo-tech learning to be a machinist. When he got his first job they handed him a file. That was the most sophisticated equipment he dealt with other than just turning a lathe on and off that was moving at a crawl to turn the stock he was filing on.

I had men with six or eight years experience botch the first simple assignments I gave them. Saved me time and aggravation starting them small, nothing I hate worse than having to come behind somebody else's work. I sometimes had people bring me work somebody else had started. Without fail when they asked me what it would cost for me to finish it the answer was always "more than it would have cost for me to do the job from the beginning." Funny thing is that most understood.

By the way, nothing wrong with your post I read this morning before you edited it, don't know why you whacked it.

Hu
 
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