One of the world's biggest ever seizures of illicit ivory - $3.4m
- Thread starter Jive
- Start date
Did the enlightenment ever reach the US? Sometimes it is difficult to tell.
Well, it obviously hasn't reached your parts.......dead serious. :sorry:
Banks
Banned
2007 article on Elephant ivory and poaching
I could very well be wrong, be it hasn't been until the last 10-15 years that conservation and population management have become popular in Africa. In a country in which many people have a daily fight to survive, killing an animal for food is natural. It became a problem when there became an easy profit from poaching for particular parts - as Eric said, there's a big market in China, they have the wealth and the demand. Now that some countries are finding there is a larger profit to be made from conservation/management through tourism and restricted hunts, a stronger effort is being made to thwart poachers. The problem remains, criminals will act in manners outside the law(weapons, tactics, murder), while the enforcement has to abide by those laws.
That's my 2 cents*.
(*May not be adjusted for inflation.)
I could very well be wrong, be it hasn't been until the last 10-15 years that conservation and population management have become popular in Africa. In a country in which many people have a daily fight to survive, killing an animal for food is natural. It became a problem when there became an easy profit from poaching for particular parts - as Eric said, there's a big market in China, they have the wealth and the demand. Now that some countries are finding there is a larger profit to be made from conservation/management through tourism and restricted hunts, a stronger effort is being made to thwart poachers. The problem remains, criminals will act in manners outside the law(weapons, tactics, murder), while the enforcement has to abide by those laws.
That's my 2 cents*.
(*May not be adjusted for inflation.)
I just dug out an old N.Y. Times Magazine article from back in 1993 about the fraud that the African Wildlife Foundation and others perpetrated on the general public to extract funds worldwide to save the elephants from extinction. The funds were not needed for the elephants, which in many places at the time were actually enjoying populations so large that culling entire families was being considered. They used the money to help protect other species that were actually in much greater danger, like the rhino.
A noble cause for sure, but deception nonetheless.
Here's a link to the article (san pics):
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/07/magazine/crying-wolf-over-elephants.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
A noble cause for sure, but deception nonetheless.
Here's a link to the article (san pics):
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/07/magazine/crying-wolf-over-elephants.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
O and how you out the BS!!!
I can't believe how sometimes you can make such valid points, and the next sound like such a complete ass...
As someone who has never hunted in Africa but has read extensively on the subject from many of the great hunters past and present I can say that Eric certainly knows his subject and hunting legally there supports not only the locals there but the elephants themselves.
When you've hunted humans like Eric has, well hunting in the sense of thinning the heard of people who have a small amount of money and scamming them, then what's left but poor elephants.
He's acting like no one but him has been there but him.
Big wig corporate people do exactly what was posted, they go there, someone radios that there are what they are looking for at certain coordinates, and you go to those coordinates, aim, and put your trigger pressure on.
He's acting like no one but him has been there but him.
Big wig corporate people do exactly what was posted, they go there, someone radios that there are what they are looking for at certain coordinates, and you go to those coordinates, aim, and put your trigger pressure on.
I am pointing out a closed minded set that might be taking an insulting and ignorant position in this matter. It is a description. I insult no one. Or perhaps you feel there are no people of that description? Or others?
Pointing out people's short-comings is non-PC, I agree. But insulting? If people happen to fit a description then it is not an insult. I never specified anybody at all, hence nobody should be insulted. If, however one feels one fits the description, then one might be offended at being pointed out the way a criminal is upset about getting caught...but not about being a criminal.
.
.
My position, sunshine, is abhorrence at the rich living out their juvenile fantasies at the expense of the natural world.
Talking of 'fantasies', I don't believe you clarified how a non-gambler can possibly earn enough from playing pool to put themselves through medical school, did you? I thought you'd be too busy tending to Lance Armstrong on the Starship Enterprise to be a pro...
I earned enough money playing pool to put myself through undergrad. I never claimed it put me through med school. Pay attention sunshine.
I got out of undergrad with zero debt.
Gamblers play odds. I played even, for cash. I am not a gambler and never was.
I have over $170,000.00 in debt for medical school.
There is nothing to explain, you simply have trouble understanding.
Now come off it, your inadequacies are showing.
.
TheThaiger
Banned
How much was undergrad?
TheThaiger
Banned
You insult no one? See post 23. Your 'butter wouldn't melt' schtick is tiresome. And get rid of those bloody fullstops.
TheThaiger
Banned
That simply isn't true. If anything, the media plays down the impact human beings make on the planet. True, there's manipulation and distortion in some instances, but the scale of extinction caused directly by one species is unprecedented in the planet's history.
In short, we're ruinous for the planet, and this will only get worse if enlightened and prosperous nations legitimise killing iconic animals for sport or entertainment.
High time people around here grew up.
TheThaiger
Banned
Care to expand on your first paragraph?
You are bang-on with your point about hunting for recreation. An army of wealthy chinese corporate types descending on Africa in years to come doesn't bear thinking about. This is not necessarily about what happens to elephants today; rather, the message it sends out and what happens to everything else tomorrow.
I agree with a good bit of what you said, however I can clearly see at least 15 tusks that were cut as you descibed, so this would appear to be a mix.
-Dave
hey Sloppy...
your quoted article reminded me of 20 years ago when i was still comparatively young - i remember because i was collecting Japanese Netsuke at the time
the Times article you noted was one of many of the same ilk. and in the forthcoming years it was very apparent the damage that was done by De-legalizing ivory. even the banners knew the thuth
i'll tell you a story that i think you will appreciate:
i am just a shoemaker. nothing special, not a savior of the lost or innocent, not a man of importance one way or another
the story starts in China. it was the early 90's - twenty plus year ago...
i was at a factory that made rubber outsoles for shoes. they were making some of the outsoles that i needed for production of shoes and i agreed to use this additional factory because i was short of production outsoles available from usual sources, as sometimes happens
i speak some Chinese and was talking to the factory owner, mainly on issues of 'dwell time' which has to do with the curing of rubber - tech stuff; and i saw this young woman - and as a what i considered a usual outsole worker she caught my eye, she didn't fit
i watched her working. she was perfect. she knew her craft. i thought i misjudged her age - she looked so young but by my standards all Chinese looked younger than their age
later that day we were just talking and feeling foolish i asked how old that girl was. he said to me in a very polite way: "please do not ask me this". my heart stopped at that moment
oh shi*, i said internally. i made some sound. desperation.
i implored, please - what is the deal? i am American. i can not allow child labor. there was a long silence
finely he spoke: i am a father. i love my children. i provide for my children.
he said to me, "look! see the mountain?" i nodded - i do. "she lives there with her mother"
i just nodded and waited- a custom i learned in China...
and a story unfolded about her and her mother and about China
i learned that day that i am not qualified to judge another culture
fats said he spent 2 to 5 months abroad per year, but i have spent at least 6 months abroad for so many years that i can not even count; but more than 25 years. some moments i feel like a gypsy of the world
to end this story, i learned that day that this young girl needed this job to feed her and her mother. without this job, they could not survive life
tragic but true
i offered to pay her salary and let her go back to school. it was small money for me. he agreed and she was never again at that factory. he also never accepted my payment. he could not let me do what he felt he wanted to do
looking at our own past, in the early 1900's we had child labor. it was acceptable at the time. we have now a different view, but can we cast that view on the world?
i have learned that we can not...
you can make any decision you feel best but i know that i can not dictate to the world
she was 16 at the time. and one day maybe i will tell you more about her, but know this...
she and her mother survived life's difficulties
her boss and i are still friends
problem solved
between two men
but the problem with elephants has not been, unfortunately...
it has been made worse
think about it...
read the Sloppy's article: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/07/magazine/crying-wolf-over-elephants.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
all the best,
smokey
your quoted article reminded me of 20 years ago when i was still comparatively young - i remember because i was collecting Japanese Netsuke at the time
the Times article you noted was one of many of the same ilk. and in the forthcoming years it was very apparent the damage that was done by De-legalizing ivory. even the banners knew the thuth
i'll tell you a story that i think you will appreciate:
i am just a shoemaker. nothing special, not a savior of the lost or innocent, not a man of importance one way or another
the story starts in China. it was the early 90's - twenty plus year ago...
i was at a factory that made rubber outsoles for shoes. they were making some of the outsoles that i needed for production of shoes and i agreed to use this additional factory because i was short of production outsoles available from usual sources, as sometimes happens
i speak some Chinese and was talking to the factory owner, mainly on issues of 'dwell time' which has to do with the curing of rubber - tech stuff; and i saw this young woman - and as a what i considered a usual outsole worker she caught my eye, she didn't fit
i watched her working. she was perfect. she knew her craft. i thought i misjudged her age - she looked so young but by my standards all Chinese looked younger than their age
later that day we were just talking and feeling foolish i asked how old that girl was. he said to me in a very polite way: "please do not ask me this". my heart stopped at that moment
oh shi*, i said internally. i made some sound. desperation.
i implored, please - what is the deal? i am American. i can not allow child labor. there was a long silence
finely he spoke: i am a father. i love my children. i provide for my children.
he said to me, "look! see the mountain?" i nodded - i do. "she lives there with her mother"
i just nodded and waited- a custom i learned in China...
and a story unfolded about her and her mother and about China
i learned that day that i am not qualified to judge another culture
fats said he spent 2 to 5 months abroad per year, but i have spent at least 6 months abroad for so many years that i can not even count; but more than 25 years. some moments i feel like a gypsy of the world
to end this story, i learned that day that this young girl needed this job to feed her and her mother. without this job, they could not survive life
tragic but true
i offered to pay her salary and let her go back to school. it was small money for me. he agreed and she was never again at that factory. he also never accepted my payment. he could not let me do what he felt he wanted to do
looking at our own past, in the early 1900's we had child labor. it was acceptable at the time. we have now a different view, but can we cast that view on the world?
i have learned that we can not...
you can make any decision you feel best but i know that i can not dictate to the world
she was 16 at the time. and one day maybe i will tell you more about her, but know this...
she and her mother survived life's difficulties
her boss and i are still friends
problem solved
between two men
but the problem with elephants has not been, unfortunately...
it has been made worse
think about it...
read the Sloppy's article: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/07/magazine/crying-wolf-over-elephants.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
all the best,
smokey
I never totaled it up.
My first year was at an expensive private school and my dad helped out. I didn't like that so I officially gained emancipation and left school for a year. That's when I started playing pool. I then returned to school but went to a very inexpensive state university.
I earned some academic scholarships and worked in the labs. That paid for some. I also stretched it out and did not graduate in four years, mostly to spread out the expense.
Throughout most of that time I would estimate that 1/2 to 2/3 of my income was from pool. It fed me, paid my rent, put gas in my car, etc.
In my last year of undergrad I got married and had a "real job", that's when I stopped playing.
How much did it all cost? Depends on one includes only tuition or adds living expenses etc. Hard to say really. I lived pretty frugally, in fact extremely frugally. Much of the time I was very broke. So I think I accomplished it at minimum expense.
How much did it cost? I don't know.
What does this have to do with Ivory?
.
They are estimating the price of those tusks at $550 per pound. But to have claimed $750,000 worth of Ivory seized would not have sounded very impressive. But that value would have been more accurate if sold in small quantities. So the actual value of the haul was maybe $500,000. Don't get me wrong it was a lot of illegal Ivory, but the values were hyped up.
George Carlin on "Saving Endangered Species and the Planet"
Uh oh -- you *knew* this was coming, right?
George Carlin on "Saving Endangered Species and the Planet"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
RIP George, noone spoke the truth so lucidly as you!
-Sean
Uh oh -- you *knew* this was coming, right?
George Carlin on "Saving Endangered Species and the Planet"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw
RIP George, noone spoke the truth so lucidly as you!
-Sean
First: When I see the ivory burned I cringe. It should be sold and the money should be invested in anti-poaching measures.
Second: Smokey, I disagree. If you readily do business with a culture that would hire a child as easily as hiring an adult, than that is strictly endorsing the practice. There is no excuse for it, if you know they do it and do business with that person, than its on you. Because that is probably the beginning of what that company is capable of or allows in its own business practices. He sees hiring a child as ok, than its probably ok to dump mercury in the riverr in 55 gallon drums on a daily basis. Or burn carcinogens and let factory workers work without masks.
Yes the US used to allow this kind of stuff, but it was YEARS ago and if I saw you stick your hand in a saw and cut it off, you better believe that I am not going to do the same thing.
JV
Second: Smokey, I disagree. If you readily do business with a culture that would hire a child as easily as hiring an adult, than that is strictly endorsing the practice. There is no excuse for it, if you know they do it and do business with that person, than its on you. Because that is probably the beginning of what that company is capable of or allows in its own business practices. He sees hiring a child as ok, than its probably ok to dump mercury in the riverr in 55 gallon drums on a daily basis. Or burn carcinogens and let factory workers work without masks.
Yes the US used to allow this kind of stuff, but it was YEARS ago and if I saw you stick your hand in a saw and cut it off, you better believe that I am not going to do the same thing.
JV