one piece cores

[scdiveteam]

Yeah, I don't know if I'd try to use a PVA for a ringbillet, maybe. I haven't made one yet so it's hard to speculate.

Since the topic is already in discussion, here's a picture of a small section that I had cut off the nose side of the handle I described earlier. Even at .015" over, to my untrained eye it looks like a good bond.

Hi Kim,

I am shure you agree. When you consider the surface area of the dowel times the length of the cue the expansion of the GG is the nuts. The glue bond in our application is not subject the sheer, elongation, compression and torquesional forces that push any envelopes for the full core cues that you and I construct.

The best feature of the GG chemistry is the 2000 year half life on this material. Entropy is your worst enemy. The more man tries to put thing together, the more the natural forces of the universe wants to work on making it fall apart.

I agree with TW and use better glues for ferrules, joint collars and butt caps. I always use G5 @ 90 degrees. I like 105 206 west system for gluing points for sure.

JMO,

Rick G

 

[Thomas Wayne]

I have used PVA many times and still do but I had a bad experience on my first ring billet. I cut the slots in the billet and had the strips all ready to go in. I put PVA on everything and started to assemble it. By the time I got half way done it was a ball of sticky sht that looked like a pile of pick up sticks covered with alfredo sauce. I sht canned the whole sticky mess.

One of my many failures when learning to build cues............ I hope I live long enough to not make any more.

Now I use west system for billets and have plenty of time to assemble and it turns out hard as a rock.

Many CB's use gorilla glue for coring and it works great. Glue it up and let it cure over night and then bounce the end of it on the floor. It sings like a single piece of wood. If you can't get gorilla glue to hold a core in place when cutting in points, there is something wrong with the method of glue up or assembly.

l

Kim

Just to be absolutely clear, when you refer to "PVA glue" you do know that's white wood glue or yellow aliphatic resin glue....right? Such Titebond and the like?

In case you didn't know that, Gorilla Glue is not PVA glue. It's polyurethane glue, and is abbreviated "PUR" (or sometimes "PU").

Just wanted to be sure we're talking about the same stuff. And after personal experience and reading the testing methods and results, I'd say for certain I'm not the only one who isn't very impressed with PUR Glue. In several years of using the stuff I personally only had one failure, but that's one too many, no matter HOW convenient it is.

TW

 

[pescadoman]

Just to be absolutely clear, when you refer to "PVA glue" you do know that's white wood glue or yellow aliphatic resin glue....right? Such Titebond and the like?

In case you didn't know that, Gorilla Glue is not PVA glue. It's polyurethane glue, and is abbreviated "PUR" (or sometimes "PU").

Just wanted to be sure we're talking about the same stuff. And after personal experience and reading the testing methods and results, I'd say for certain I'm not the only one who isn't very impressed with PUR Glue. In several years of using the stuff I personally only had one failure, but that's one too many, no matter HOW convenient it is.

TW

Thomas, if you please. What were the conditions of the failure and what is your preferred glue for coring?

 

[Thomas Wayne]

I actually think the issue was some sort of honeycomb checking inside the Ebony. This came from a big pile of very rough sawn billets I had bought from Gidwani (back in the day), and when I peered closely into the failed section it looked as if there had been an internal "split" exactly like you might find from a kiln drying error. I don't remember the Ebony being billed a "kiln dried", but that's sure what it looked like internally.

TW

 

[whammo57]

Just to be absolutely clear, when you refer to "PVA glue" you do know that's white wood glue or yellow aliphatic resin glue....right? Such Titebond and the like?

In case you didn't know that, Gorilla Glue is not PVA glue. It's polyurethane glue, and is abbreviated "PUR" (or sometimes "PU").

Just wanted to be sure we're talking about the same stuff. And after personal experience and reading the testing methods and results, I'd say for certain I'm not the only one who isn't very impressed with PUR Glue. In several years of using the stuff I personally only had one failure, but that's one too many, no matter HOW convenient it is.

TW

Yes... I was a newbe and use titebond (PVA) to make a mess. It just gets too thick snd sticky too fast for ring billets or for coring.

But Rick is right. There is no way gorilla blue can fail in a core it's put together right.

I use the corner of a file to gouge rings every inch to inch and a half in the core while it's spinning in the lathe. I size it for a nice slip fit in the forearm, handle, and butt sleeve. Put a copious amount of GG on the core and wipe it in. Squirt some GG in each of the parts going on the core and twist as you slide it into position. Some people slightly dampen the parts to ensure good GG expansion and foaming. I put a clamp on the core at both ends of the piece to keep it from moving as the GG foams. It will move the piece sometimes.

I build the cue in stages and not all at once. It you use epoxy on long pieces I believe you will get voids in the glue internally. I do use epoxy on the butt sleeve sometimes and I do glue the butt cap and joint cap with epoxy.

Kim

 

[whammo57]

Hi Kim,

I am shure you agree. When you consider the surface area of the dowel times the length of the cue the expansion of the GG is the nuts. The glue bond in our application is not subject the sheer, elongation, compression and torquesional forces that push any envelopes for the full core cues that you and I construct.

The best feature of the GG chemistry is the 2000 year half life on this material. Entropy is your worst enemy. The more man tries to put thing together, the more the natural forces of the universe wants to work on making it fall apart.

I agree with TW and use better glues for ferrules, joint collars and butt caps. I always use G5 @ 90 degrees. I like 105 206 west system for gluing points for sure.

JMO,

Rick G

I did a little math. I use an 11/16 gun drill all the way. The circumference is pi times 11/16 or about 2.16 inches. The circumference times 26 inches that is glued length using GG equals 56 square inches of gluing surface.

So to equal that .... take 2 pieces of wood about 7.5 inches square and glue them together with GG. After it has cured, try to get them apart.

It isn't going to happen. The same with the core. It is never going to come apart.

Kim

 

[treed]

core glue

I usally use tightbond,but have also found west system too do very well too.w.s.will allow you to more time,if you are doing something that is multiple pieces.the tightbond should be wetted to make a sronger bond,I usally wet my wood to induce some extra moisture.the w.s. is tougher to clean up,I wear some toss away latex gloves when using it.

 

[cutter]

Let me start out by saying, this is my opinion. I don't like gg for cores, just for the reason that most people use it. It foams up and fills the gap between the core and outer parts of the cue. Take a piece of wax paper, put on gg and a lite mist of water. When it dries drop the foam on the floor, no bounce, no sound. It is dead. So even with a .012 gap and most people end up with a larger gap, you are putting a foam layer between the core and the outside of the cue. I don't want that, but again, that's my opinion. Now if you laminate things with gg, it's a differnt story, no real room to expand. It's a very strong bond, but it's a dead zone if you have a gap. Just another opinion.

 

[Thomas Wayne]

[...] There is no way gorilla blue can fail in a core it's put together right.[...]

If history has taught us nothing else, it's taught us that those first four words have preceded many a major disaster.

Nevertheless, there are many ways to de-fur a feline - and there's no greater example of that than cuemaking. I don't use PUR ("Gorilla Glue", et al) for coring anymore but that doesn't mean it's no good. I actually use different glues depending on the core and shell species.

My original reason for no longer using PUR [for coring] was due to an unexpected failure during subsequent construction, but I also do not think the manner in which it "fills" gaps is desirable. It might also be wise to remember that PUR glue [in pool cues} has only been popular for a short period of time. There are many examples of cues built multiple decades ago that are still solid and sound, but Gorilla Glue (et al) has not yet passed that test.

Again, all just one man's opinion... well, actually, several men's opinion:

TW

 

[desi2960]

no gg for me

i'm no expert when it comes to glue, but have seen studies that show tight bond is the strongest glue in the world when gluing wood to wood. i do not mean end grain to end grain, but surface to surface. i core a few of my cues, i use tight bond, i as of yet have never had a failure.
chuck

 

[shankster8]

If history has taught us nothing else, it's taught us that those first four words have preceded many a major disaster.

Nevertheless, there are many ways to de-fur a feline - and there's no greater example of that than cuemaking. I don't use PUR ("Gorilla Glue", et al) for coring anymore but that doesn't mean it's no good. I actually use different glues depending on the core and shell species.

My original reason for no longer using PUR [for coring] was due to an unexpected failure during subsequent construction, but I also do not think the manner in which it "fills" gaps is desirable. It might also be wise to remember that PUR glue [in pool cues} has only been popular for a short period of time. There are many examples of cues built multiple decades ago that are still solid and sound, but Gorilla Glue (et al) has not yet passed that test.

Again, all just one man's opinion... well, actually, several men's opinion:


TW

Thomas, if it's not privileged information, would you comment further on the various glues you now use for specific purposes. Thanks

 

[Thomas Wayne]

Thomas, if it's not privileged information, would you comment further on the various glues you now use for specific purposes. Thanks

I probably would if I could, but the info doesn't belong to me. All my epoxies are custom blended by a small company [not connected to cuemaking], and the close friend who turned me on to that source swore me to secrecy.

I'm sure that many of the top brands out there work just fine. However, a lot of the suppliers won't ship various chemicals to Alaska without haz-mat designations (I can't even bring in Dri-cote, for crying out loud)). My epoxy packager doesn't have those issues, so I bring in a few different blends every year or so and store the unused portions refrigerated.

TW

 

[Agent17]

Good article.

I would agree wholeheartedly that polyurethane glues are not as strong. Easy, yes, but I've experienced several problems and will only now use it for unimportant bonds.

Would have also liked to have seen Cyanoacrylate and Cascamite/Extramite/Polymite in those tests. Be very interesting to see exactly how they compared. Both superior to polyurethane I would expect.

If you wish to retain maximum 'ping' in the wood, you should use a glue that sets rock hard and has 'substance'. Epoxy will do this, as will Cascamite.

 

[Lexicologist71]

Cascamite? Googling now.

I found a bunch of places to buy it in England, but only one review and that was negative.

 

[Agent17]

I can tell you from personal experience that Cascamite (old name, be re-branded as Extramite and Polymite) is an excellent wood glue if used for the right purpose.

It should not be used for items immersed in water, but for all other general use there is no other issue.

My experience runs well over 25 years where I have seen old work return to me, which was done with Cascamite, along with various pva's and aliphatic resins like Titebond, plus of course polyurethanes like Gorilla glue.

In my opinion, it is superior to pva and aliphatic resin when used on cues because it sets rock hard, and will minimise any glue lines. Unlike pva and Titebond which have some elasticity and tend to let the wood 'creep' a little, thus occasionally leading to 'raised' glue lines. These glue lines become more prominent on older cues where the wood has had time to to really pull in on itself. Cascamite virtually eliminates this because it appears to 'hold' the wood better, and not allow it to 'pull away' from any jointing work.

That's not to say that titebond/pva/pu doesn't stick wood. They do. But I know for a fact that Cascamite type glue has some advantages on certain types of joint.

However, it's not the simplest stuff to to work with because it is a powdered resin which must be mixed with water. Bit of a pain to knock some up but stays workable for some time so if you have a lot to do, you can make up a load in one go so it's not really an issue. Certainly gives you plenty of time to position/clamp stuff, and excess cleans up with water no problem.

 

[NY9912]

deleted - 7/25/2020

 

[Agent17]

Can anyone say why it's not used more often in cue building, at least here in the states?

Ignorance probably. I can guarantee it's not because the 'popular' glues are more suited to the job.

Plus, in fairness, it's a little inconvenient having to mix it, and sets slowly (but that's not necessarily a bad thing). There may also be shelf life issues although I have never experienced any.

In this modern day where ease, speed, and convenience rules, it's no surprise it flies below the radar.

I don't want to sound like I'm a Cascamite salesman because I'm not. I've used all the glues mentioned by others, over many many years, and I just know Cascamite does the job a tiny bit better.

For the job of coring, Cascamite or Epoxy would be my 'go to' glues, but Cascamite would probably edge it because it is much easier to clean up. And cheaper of course :thumbup:

 

[NY9912]

deleted - 7/25/2020

 

[whammo57]

Ignorance probably. I can guarantee it's not because the 'popular' glues are more suited to the job.

Plus, in fairness, it's a little inconvenient having to mix it, and sets slowly (but that's not necessarily a bad thing). There may also be shelf life issues although I have never experienced any.

In this modern day where ease, speed, and convenience rules, it's no surprise it flies below the radar.

I don't want to sound like I'm a Cascamite salesman because I'm not. I've used all the glues mentioned by others, over many many years, and I just know Cascamite does the job a tiny bit better.

For the job of coring, Cascamite or Epoxy would be my 'go to' glues, but Cascamite would probably edge it because it is much easier to clean up. And cheaper of course :thumbup:

How many full length cores (29 inches) have you actually done using cascamite or epoxy??

Kim


EDIT: didn't think so

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

Epoxy or even Titebond may be structurally stronger but when you are coring it is not a situation where clamping force can be applied. The biggest benefit of Gorilla Glue Type products is the expansion factor with the reactivity from the water as the catalyst.

The problem with using epoxy to cement a core is that most of the material pistons out and voids are formed inside the annular gap space. When this happens the cue can buzz. Also some of the highest strength slow cure epoxies soak into the wood fiber creating a tenuous transition bond zone. Players don't like buzzing cues, nor do I. Poly Glue like GG and Axcel expand and fill the annulus completely and have a 1/2 life of way over a thousand years chemically.

GG may not be the strongest glue but in this application it is over kill to the max concerning modulus strength numbers vs. application expectations. The structural integrity of the cue will not be compromised because of the 68.2" inches of Total Surface Area of the glue footprint on the core is only challenged by a microsecond shock wave coefficient transmitted to the cue via the joint face and collars to distribute the load through the core as well as the wood cylinder itself. The Delta P of this wave propagation between the dowel and the cored parent woods is almost non existent as the shock wave is moving laterally and not at an angle to the jointery.

The compression coefficient of the cue as a rod is minimal because of the cue ball weight, cue's mass and the force to overcome the moment of inertia and the elongation effect ever rendered on a pool cue is close to zero. Most tests for glue apps are designed to show the material's resistance to shear force and those numbers are great to know but when is the last time you saw a player put a cue in a vise and attach a hydraulic cylinder to it. Now Mike Seigel's Breaks Shot, that's a different story and thats why I want high strength space shuttle approved epoxy on my pin install, ferrule and joint collars.

AS for GG I would not use it for putting on tips & ferrules, gluing points, gluing A - Joints or other cue areas because there are much better and stronger things to use. For coring Polyurethane Glue is the Cat's Pajamas IMHO.

Based on the physics of pool and glue manufacturer's product testing information I have developed engineering models plotting the dynamic forces placed on a cue shaft and full cored butt that is joined with a flat face and big pin aspect geometry as part of my Esoteric Cue QA/QC Manual. If you are using GG for your joints, ferrules & tips you are not using the best available product for those applications, IMO. :nono:

Good Cue Making,

Rick G