One pocket shot what do you do?

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
Using a bit of left so as to attempt freezing the cueball

At first glance, I said bank the 4 2 rails leave the cb on the top rail and beg him to try a cross bank on anything at that end of the table. I haven't changed my mind on that shot. The others who want to bank the 13 and go 3 rails with the cb and the player who wanted to leave the cb down on the other end of the table are the guys I want to play. You never leave that close of a bank if you miss, Always leave long.---Smitty

Hi HS,
Assuming that you really didn't mean that you should, "always leave long," I have to point out for some others that you have mentioned an important point for those that do go for the 2-cushion bank; use a bit of left so as to attempt freezing cueball to head cushion. Putting yourself in the "shoes" of the opponent will help you in noticing such things.

I just learned about this "rep" thing and hope I've done it right.
 

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
Getting reality on how these shots look to top players

I cut the 13 in here with pocket speed. I don't disagree with the two railer on the four ball. It isn't a bad shot. I just don't think that shooting the 13 is a sucker shot.

Hello "Tin Man,"

Couldn't agree more with your above statements. Many obviously just don't realize how some top players can shoot really straight and would go for the cut-shot full of confidence that they will either make it or hang it up; and the same is true for those that really know how to bank.

The bank is quite easy to prove to yourselves. I certainly hope that at least some of you will try the following: Just shoot the two-cushion bank three or four times so can get the feel of the angle and speed of the shot, as much feel as what a top banker would have before his very first attempt, and then shoot it. That should provide a bit more reality as to why top players select different shots from many others.

As for how to do the same for the cut-shot, just place the cueball 2-3 diamonds closer to the shot and then see what the shot would have looked like to a Mosconi or a "New York Blackie."

for whatever its worth,
Eddie Robin
 

dabarbr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nope, I would not shoot a safety here - the offensive shots are too high percentage to pass up, and you have the other balls tied up out of play....I stick with the shot choices in my original post.

- Ghost

You're right Ghost. I don't think he got to six by passing up shots like these.
 

akaTrigger

Hi!
Silver Member
If you're at 6, then normally you stay away from sending balls down table (even though you're backwards on your drawing LOL!!). Cut the 13-ball, and play the cueball all the way to make sure you don't sell a bank on the 4-ball.

That being said, 2-railing the 4-ball looks like a good lag and pretty free. Play the cueball hanging in the corner pocket area.

Fred <~~~ that's what the commentators might say

I want to sit next to you and commentate with you soon. :)
 

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
Ghost,

No Kidding? Wonder how well you remember! I recently talked on phone to someone else that knew me at Howard & Paulina and I screwed up by not getting his name and number. Gotta get back to that guy for he can help authenticate the fact that, except in 3-cushion or when on the lemon with a victim, I'd never lost in Chicago. Also gotta find the number of the Greek guy ("very" "connected") who ran a restaurant on Rush Street and used to hang out at the Golden 8-Ball on Rush Street; did you know him by any chance?

Do you recall Keith, Fuss, or ... forgot other guy's name. Did you know the guy in the glass business who went on road with me and two others? Wonder if he's still around. Can we talk? Got 3 numbers but don't expect main one to be functioning for another few days at least. If ya want, give me a call at 702 641-9686 and don't be at all concerned about the hour for my hours have been changing daily and I normally get back to sleep easily.

Eddie R
 

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
The 4 two rails at first looks like a good option. But, one pocket is similar to a chess game. And, while the 2 rail bank looks good now, it can bite you bad later.

Cutting the 13 is a desperation move. And you are not in a desperate situation. So, it would be foolish to try and cut it. Even if you can cut it in 2 out of 3 times, that one time you scratch makes it not worth it. If you scratch off it, you are down to 5 balls, and your opponent has an easy two balls to get, and maybe three balls. He gets those three, and then banks the 4 in, you might agree that the cut wasn't worth it.

As later mentioned (quite correctly) by "DeadOn," you must not be thinking about what would be correct for top players. I can see how lesser players might be concerned re a possible scratch but not someone who can really play.

I suggest that everybody who would be afraid of a scratch on this cut-shot to simply try the shot a few times at make speed and prove to yourself just how badly you would have to shoot to scratch even once in a hundred or even a thousand attempts. Please try the shot on the table!

I say "make-speed" because the idea should be to leave the ball very close if not hanging in the pocket should you miss; that should govern your speed rather than where the cueball winds up. One can really overdo the idea of safe, safe, safe, when you are ahead on the score; the cutting of the 13 would not be considered a risky shot for a good player.

If this shot is considered too "risky," you must be playing a very conservative game. The better the player the more aggressive he is able to play whether it be 14.1, 3-cushion, bank-pool, 9-ball or whatever. The weaker the player the less aggressive he can play because he can't depend on very much success in his shooting abilities. Depending on equipment, make-speed might be perfect for winding up frozen on the head rail anyway!

Eddie Robin
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
By the diagram, with the 90 degree rule, it is a dead scratch, and you have to bend the cb a little to avoid it. In real life, that is not true. I just tried it on my table, and with no english, pocket speed, I avoided the scratch by over 1/2 diamond.

Actually, the "90 degree rule" wouldn't apply unless you were shooting almost a 90-degree cut. Otherwise the forward roll on the cue ball would carry it forward of the 90 degree tangent line to hit the end rail.

The risk with this shot is that if you miss the cut by hitting it a little too fat the forward roll might not be enough to carry the cue ball forward of that tangent line to miss the scratch. As somebody else said, however, you'd have to miss the cut by a diamond or so in order to scratch.

pj
chgo
 

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
Thanks for going to the table to find out for yourself!!!

For what it's worth, I would shoot the shot. When I made the post, I was just going off the cuetable diagram, which can be decieving. By the diagram, with the 90 degree rule, it is a dead scratch, and you have to bend the cb a little to avoid it. In real life, that is not true. I just tried it on my table, and with no english, pocket speed, I avoided the scratch by over 1/2 diamond.

Neil,

Thanks ever so much for going to the table to find out for yourself and then letting everybody else here know the result. That's one of the ways for all of us to learn.

From your example, I now feel like wanting to admit something here myself. Sure I've got ego, as one of the recent posts re my character has mentioned. And nobody really likes to be wrong. It was not at all easy for me to come to grips with being dead-wrong several years ago about how lessened weight near the tip will lessen deflection.

For over two weeks I'd explained with great logic, even managing to convince a couple of others who were somewhat used to my having the answers, as to how that lessened weight business re deflection was an error; I'm still somewhat embarrassed over that one and hope to get over it within another year or so.

for whatever it was worth,

Eddie robin
 

mullyman

Hung Like a Gnat!
Silver Member
You have two options that I see or would contemplate: play the 13 off of the 9 or two rail the 4. Of the two I would probably play the 13 off of the 9 with speed to leave the cb on the bottom rail.

Yeah, but for someone that is a good shotmaker, like this guy said his opponent is/was, leaving that 4 for a table length bank is just asking for trouble.

Now, I'm not a 1 hole player by any stretch of the imagination. I've played it, of course, but it's not my first discipline in this great game of ours and I'm waaaay far from being an expert. But hey, sometimes you can learn things from lesser players because they aren't looking at it the same way you are. Gotta keep those minds open.

With that said, if this was left to me, I would go 2 rails with the 4 trying to make it or get it as close to my pocket as possible. I would also do everything I could to get that cueball on the same side of the table as his pocket, against the rail hopefully, so he can't go taking a winger at that 13.
MULLY
 

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
Thought should remind you as to what you previously said

The 4 two rails at first looks like a good option. But, one pocket is similar to a chess game. And, while the 2 rail bank looks good now, it can bite you bad later.

Cutting the 13 is a desperation move. And you are not in a desperate situation. So, it would be foolish to try and cut it. Even if you can cut it in 2 out of 3 times, that one time you scratch makes it not worth it. If you scratch off it, you are down to 5 balls, and your opponent has an easy two balls to get, and maybe three balls. He gets those three, and then banks the 4 in, you might agree that the cut wasn't worth it.

Neil,

Thought I should remind you as to what you had previously written in re to the shot this thread is about BEFORE I'D CORRECTED YOU. You've mentioned how the cut shot "is a desperation move" and how "it would be foolish to try it" and then, unbelievably, going so far as to infer one might scratch once in three attempts when any good player couldn't have done that in a thousand tries.

I recall you later wrote, after I'd corrected you and pleaded with you to just shoot the shot on a table, about how you actually would not have been concerned about the scratch after all. I'd be somewhat embarrased about those words after arguing against one who obviously knows so much more than you about the game. I'd think you should focus more on striving to learn than to teach others. I realize that this may be a long shot but just gotta ask ya; do you teach others how to play?

You just might want to now say, "uncle."

Eddie Robin
 
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Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
How adroit! Please re-read what you've written.

I'm not sure just what your problem is, but you definently have one. Yes, I would shoot the shot. And, I feel that any good shotmaker would. However, on this forum, we have ALL levels of players. A good portion on here are not great players, and, I feel that when posting on here, their skill level has to be taken into account also.

Since the shot is a backwards cut, the actual contact point from making the shot, and scratching off the ball are very close together. It is VERY possible to scratch of that shot. Sure, it means you missed by half a diamond or so, but look at where the contact points are from the angle of the shot. They are VERY close together. Also, from being on here a while, I know that a good portion of the people on here have a problem aiming back cuts.

Your reply seems to only take into account what top players would shoot, and anything else is less. I don't agree with ONLY stating what a top player would shoot, because there are so few of them.

As far as me teaching, now and then I do. I also try and learn all the time. I have no problem doing both. And, I never take the attitude that just because I said something, that is the end of it. I'm always open to seeing things different ways. Unlike you, my ego doesn't get in the way. Strange how you give me green rep for posting after I tried the shot, and now you feel the need to slam me for it. Whatever floats your boat, Eddie. Have a good day.

Neil,

Neil,

I've pasted here what you've previously written to help others understand what would be best in the given situation: "Cutting the 13 is a desperation move. And you are not in a desperate situation. So, it would be foolish to try and cut it. Even if you can cut it in 2 out of 3 times, that one time you scratch makes it not worth it. If you scratch off it, you are down to 5 balls, and your opponent has an easy two balls to get, and maybe three balls. He gets those three, and then banks the 4 in, you might agree that the cut wasn't worth it."

For those of that have any doubts re the danger of scratching on the cut shot, please do what I'd previously had Neil do. Shoot the shot with make-speed so as to hang up the ball should you miss.

Back to Neil. I see nothing about how you may have been referring only to weaker players. There are situations in which there may be as many as several different options for several different levels of play, but that obviously had nothing to do with what you had written. You didn't refer to levels of play that would obviously have to be even lower than your own. You are simply looking for an out when none is available. I understand how you would like to somehow back out of the silliness in that previous quote but I tried to help you save face but you wouldn't have any of it. I just don't see how any twisting of what I've been communicating can get you out of what you had previously written. I believe it will remain there for quite some time.

I even tried to ease your pain at realizing your ridiculous post by giving you that green rep with my thanking you for admitting it was wrong advice, and explaining how I was once similarly embarrassed. I was attempting to make things a bit easier forr you and now you insist you really didn't mean what you wrote. Give us all a break! I was doing my best to save you embarrassment and now you try to save face with attempts to embarrass me with alterations and misleading remarks. Shame on you!

Though some of you other guys might be enjoying these replies between Neil and myself, my apologies for those of you that are more than a bit tired of them. Please realize that I have no choice for Neil has been attacking me instead of owning up to the truth of the matter. I don't wish to be victimized like this.

For straighter shooting,

Eddie R

PS: Some advice for those weaker players wanting desperately to improve their level of play. Please realize that when going to weaker players that pretend that what's really important is that they are good teachers, you are learning from one who was unable to either understand their own weaknesses at the game or know how to remedy them or both. Sure, my writing such things figure to pull in more attack. But I figure helping you guys is worth it.

You've got a much better shot if you at least go to someone who has reached high levels of play. That doesn't mean they are good teachers, it doesn't even mean that they have a good understanding of fundamentals, but at least you got a shot! Going to one who never really got anyplace as a player; you've not got much of a shot because, on top of all else, they may easily pass on to you their own weaknesses and misunderstoods.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Silver Member
Well, Eddie, you are right. You should quit posting here. If you can't handle what I said, you sure aren't going to handle what others will say in the future. I'm done with this stupid childish behavior. Go think what you want to. You obviously will anyway. You really should try and grow up some though. Someone didn't bow down to the almighty, all- knowing Eddie Robin, so you will go on and on trying to discredit them. Go fly a kite. My reputation is what it is on here, and you aren't going to change that. I'm done responding to you. As far as my level of play, you don't know what you don't know, so quite making an ass of yourself.
Apparently I'm reading Eddie differently. I'm sorry you two are having this bizarre squabble, but I for one am very glad that Eddie Robin is posting his opinions.

Maybe I'm just comparing his defensive posting to Fast Larry. But, so far, I don't have any problems with Eddie's posting.

Fred
 

Eddie Robin

Eddie Robin
Silver Member
Sorry to Neil and to the rest of ya! Eddie Robin

Well, Eddie, you are right. You should quit posting here. If you can't handle what I said, you sure aren't going to handle what others will say in the future. I'm done with this stupid childish behavior. Go think what you want to. You obviously will anyway. You really should try and grow up some though. Someone didn't bow down to the almighty, all- knowing Eddie Robin, so you will go on and on trying to discredit them. Go fly a kite. My reputation is what it is on here, and you aren't going to change that. I'm done responding to you. As far as my level of play, you don't know what you don't know, so quite making an ass of yourself.


I'm truly sorry for Neil and to the rest of ya in regards this "squabble" between us. Hopefully at least a few of you found it somewhat entertaining for there were some funny parts to it, but must apologize to the rest of you who almost certainly found it all quite distasteful. I hope you realize my sincerity here.

I also feel for Neil; truly I do. The guy found himself in a hole from lack of understanding on the situation provided in this thread, and from refusing the orignal rope I'd thrown him, it became increasingly difficult for him to climb out. That kinda thing sometimes happen to people. I want to apologize to him for not finding an easier way for him to climb out of his hole. He simply made a mistake and paid a price; we've all experienced such things and we all know that it isn't much fun at all. You've been there and I've been there as well!

I believe that he really meant what he wrote and that it really has finally come to an end.

for the playing of a better game,

Eddie Robin

PS: I do have intentions to contribute my share of help to AZBilliard members and in various games starting off, at least mostly with one-pocket. Many of you have shown in various ways that you deserve it; just look at the guys that stuck their own neck out to defend me. I trust you'll eventually find that I really do know a lot about billiards in general.
 
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