Decent is a relative term. Someone might call one player decent, and I may call that player a goose. I'm not asking for anyone to measure what decent means, but Cliff would already be laying the bite down on me if he gave me 12-5, and I consider myself not much better than decent.
Great replies, everybody. I thought this shot would spark some good debate, and it looks like I was right. Ok, this shot is from a match b/w Buddy Hall and Wade Crane, and when I saw this layout it struck me as a particularly difficult situation. Crane picked out what he felt was the best shot, executed it to near-perfection (as far as I could tell, anyway), but Buddy responded by running 8 & out (gotta love that Rifleman). Here's what happened:
And then Buddy shot at the 15/2 combination, made it, and ran 7 more.
After it was over, I wondered if Crane might have been better served by shooting into the 1 and drawing onto the top of the stack. I think if I were going to shoot that shot I would try to avoid moving the 4 ball. Perhaps something like this:
I would leave the 4-ball there for two reasons: 1) my opp. may make an attempt at a return shot that involves glancing off of the 4, which I think would have great potential to let me out of the trap 2) if my opp. simply rolls back to the long rail on my side, then I still maintain the option of rolling off of the 4 to try to get behind the 5, and I will most likely have a better angle for that shot if he does that (cb will be further uptable), which will hopefully mean that I can use straight follow instead of draw or left-hand spin to get the proper angle to go behind the 5, thus making the shot considerably easier to judge.
I guess my current opinion is that this is one of those situations where the best move might be to give your opponent an opportunity to let you out of the trap; put him on defense, and hope that he uses poor judgment or fails to execute well. With as many loose balls as there are on the table, forcing the issue at this point could cost you the entire game, as it did Crane. While it's absolutely possible that you could find yourself in a worse predicament next inning, your opponent would almost have to freeze you to the side of the stack or something to accomplish that, and that's going to be very difficult for him since he's jacked up, has nothing near the rail on your side to play an angle off of, and, most importantly, has to worry about selling out a shot on the 11 or 13. Worst case scenario, I think, is that he rolls back to the rail on your side, at which point you will have a better angle to roll behind the 5.
Great replies, everybody. I thought this shot would spark some good debate, and it looks like I was right. Ok, this shot is from a match b/w Buddy Hall and Wade Crane, and when I saw this layout it struck me as a particularly difficult situation. Crane picked out what he felt was the best shot, executed it to near-perfection (as far as I could tell, anyway), but Buddy responded by running 8 & out (gotta love that Rifleman). Here's what happened:
And then Buddy shot at the 15/2 combination, made it, and ran 7 more.
After it was over, I wondered if Crane might have been better served by shooting into the 1 and drawing onto the top of the stack. I think if I were going to shoot that shot I would try to avoid moving the 4 ball. Perhaps something like this:
I would leave the 4-ball there for two reasons: 1) my opp. may make an attempt at a return shot that involves glancing off of the 4, which I think would have great potential to let me out of the trap 2) if my opp. simply rolls back to the long rail on my side, then I still maintain the option of rolling off of the 4 to try to get behind the 5, and I will most likely have a better angle for that shot if he does that (cb will be further uptable), which will hopefully mean that I can use straight follow instead of draw or left-hand spin to get the proper angle to go behind the 5, thus making the shot considerably easier to judge.
I guess my current opinion is that this is one of those situations where the best move might be to give your opponent an opportunity to let you out of the trap; put him on defense, and hope that he uses poor judgment or fails to execute well. With as many loose balls as there are on the table, forcing the issue at this point could cost you the entire game, as it did Crane. While it's absolutely possible that you could find yourself in a worse predicament next inning, your opponent would almost have to freeze you to the side of the stack or something to accomplish that, and that's going to be very difficult for him since he's jacked up, has nothing near the rail on your side to play an angle off of, and, most importantly, has to worry about selling out a shot on the 11 or 13. Worst case scenario, I think, is that he rolls back to the rail on your side, at which point you will have a better angle to roll behind the 5.
I don't think you can make the 1 avoid the 4 the way you diagrammed it. I think the 4's going to move quite a bit unless you really thin the 1, and in that case you lose your cue ball.
Either way, any shot that leaves a look at the top side of the 15 is death against a good player, who should be able to make that combo and then run a bunch of balls.
But of course, regardless of whether the 4 was positioned such that the 1 would go around it, I definitely agree that drawing off the 1 into the top of the stack is the way to go here, hence my first post in this thread.
I don't think you can make the 1 avoid the 4 the way you diagrammed it. I think the 4's going to move quite a bit unless you really thin the 1, and in that case you lose your cue ball.
You may be right, but I tried to measure it out very carefully, and I believe the shot is there. It may, however, require some left-hand spin on the cb to throw the 1 a bit to the right and aid with cb control. That may in turn cause the 1 to run into the 12, but I'm not sure there's a big loss in that.
I advocated going off the 4 and landing behind the 5.. A lot of people are saying that is a hard shot.. I'll give a quick rundown of the system behind it, and for anyone that wants to learn a new way to shoot these type safeties, if you add a new weapon to your arsenal, then I've done my job.
On this shot, get behind the four, and aim through the middle of the four to the point you want to land on the rail behind the 5. Like so:
Then, look at the point on the four ball closest to the point you are trying to reach. Then, aim the center of the cue ball at that point, and stroke the cue ball with a soft follow shot, with speed to just reach the rail with the cue ball. That's it.
Try it, everyone. You'll find this shot is not nearly as hard as everyone makes it out to be. Using this system, you can very accurately get the cue ball to follow through an object ball to reach whatever point you want.
Not sure where I learned this system from, but it works. I use it when I am hitting an object ball back down table for a safety, and I am hitting the ball full. I will change the hit slightly to get the cue ball to follow through and freeze to another ball.
Rolling off the 4 behind the 5 won't change the situation enough. you need to hurt him somehow. Here's what would probably happen when coming off the 4.
On page 2 you will see that he can just bank at the 12 and either make it...or the 5...and run out. If he misses both, he will leave you on the side rail with two balls in front of his pocket!
Rolling off the 4 behind the 5 won't change the situation enough. you need to hurt him somehow. Here's what would probably happen when coming off the 4.
On page 2 you will see that he can just bank at the 12 and either make it...or the 5...and run out. If he misses both, he will leave you on the side rail with two balls in front of his pocket!
Granted.. If you read earlier in the thread, I said this would probably be the threat. In that case, you can always aim thinner on the carom and get completely behind the 5, OR aim to bump the 5 away from the pocket lightly.
In the latter case, if he DOES make the bank, he's going to be frozen to the rail if he decides to play it that way. If he misses his next shot, being frozen to the rail, he can kiss this game goodbye. If he plays it differently, and does not leave you on the rail, but doesn't make the bank, you are in MUCH better shape that after the break.
Either way, it doesn't get much worse than it is right now. I would probably play the shot to softly bump the 5 away from the pocket, and just let him go at the bank. He doesn't HAVE to get you frozen to the rail.
In summary, when a guy gets a hellaciously good break on you, sometimes you just lose. In this case, you have a high percentage move that removes a ball from his side. If he plays a perfect response, yeah.. Yer gonna lose.. That's just how it goes when a break is this good.
Well, obviously with that thin a hit, the 9 ball won't hit a rail.. So, in order not to lose a ball, you have to catch the rail right by the 5, which could lead to a scratch off the back of the 5 if you hit a bit too hard.
Now, keep in mind, i realize you are in WA state, and we both know the cloth there is slow because of the humidity, (it's where I came up in the game, around Mike Z., JD, etc..) so this might be a decent option there or in Florida, but anywhere there is faster cloth, I think a scratch is a definite danger.
Plus, if you move the 9 over and bump the 5 an inch or two, you open up a bank lane for the 9, and if I am right, I think the opponent could bank the 9 and get to the other side of the stack without leaving you a shot.
After this shot, you may come back to the table with two balls in front of his pocket. If he's like a lot of top players, he just banks the 9 ball in and runs out.
Belmica: Your shot would come down to personal skill. It is simply above my ability to catch the 9 that thin AND with the correct speed to land behind the 5 without scratching. A fractional change in thickness of hit on the 9 will greatly effect the CB path at that thin of an angle.
Further, if I catch the 9 a little too thin and bump the 5 to the side rail, I’ve just opened up the bank on the 9 where he CAN slip the CB between the 10/13 to leave me back where I started.
If he makes the 9, he can make the 13 and probably run out. If he misses, he leaves me right back where I started...except with MORE balls in front of his pocket.
I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, I just like these mental exercises because its a nice break during my work day. Don't take offense if it sounds like I wanna be a know-it-all.
There are a lot of pitfalls to avoid in this tricky little situation.
In the latter case, if he DOES make the bank, he's going to be frozen to the rail if he decides to play it that way. If he misses his next shot, being frozen to the rail, he can kiss this game goodbye. If he plays it differently, and does not leave you on the rail, but doesn't make the bank, you are in MUCH better shape that after the break.
Either way, it doesn't get much worse than it is right now. I would probably play the shot to softly bump the 5 away from the pocket, and just let him go at the bank. He doesn't HAVE to get you frozen to the rail.
Well, obviously with that thin a hit, the 9 ball won't hit a rail.. So, in order not to lose a ball, you have to catch the rail right by the 5, which could lead to a scratch off the back of the 5 if you hit a bit too hard.
Now, keep in mind, i realize you are in WA state, and we both know the cloth there is slow because of the humidity, (it's where I came up in the game, around Mike Z., JD, etc..) so this might be a decent option there or in Florida, but anywhere there is faster cloth, I think a scratch is a definite danger.
Plus, if you move the 9 over and bump the 5 an inch or two, you open up a bank lane for the 9, and if I am right, I think the opponent could bank the 9 and get to the other side of the stack without leaving you a shot.
After this shot, you may come back to the table with two balls in front of his pocket. If he's like a lot of top players, he just banks the 9 ball in and runs out.
It looked to me like the 5 was less than a ball width from the rail, and I could snuggle the cue ball there. Also, the shot you described looks like a guaranteed scratch if you don't hit it perfectly.
Easy way to settle the discussion. Go set up the layout as shown, and then try to get behind the 5 from the two different directions. On my follow/carom shot, you can hit different points on the rail by changing the thickness.
I don't know.. Your shot might play easier than mine. Someone see if they can film a couple of tries with each shot..
One thing I find interesting.. Everyone on this board seems to have the ability to shoot the bank on the 12, either MAKE it or hang it up, AND keep the cue ball near the lower rail. Oh yeah.. While shooting out of the pocket. Oh yeah... And while the cue ball is crossing the 12 from left to right, imparting right spin on the ball and causing the bank to straighten out.
What? I'm just saying that you guys all play WAYYYYY too strong for me, lol. That's why I am a C player, I guess...
I'm not a one-pocket expert either, but I would submit a guess that the risk/reward factor associated with your shot is a bit lopsided for most players to consider seriously. It's not so much that the risk is that high, although it is asking a lot of yourself (not to mention the table) to catch the ball that thinly while achieving the correct angle and speed. The main problem with the shot, as I see it, is that the reward is not high enough to justify the risk. The only reward I see here is that you might survive the inning, and, assuming you were able to execute the shot properly, you could potentially create worse problems for yourself by sweetening the deal on the 9-ball bank. Actually, the best reward I could see from your shot is if you caught too much of the 9, pushing it to the rail and doubling it up with the 11, and the cb glanced wide and pocketed the 5. That might actually improve your odds of winning this game dramatically.
But... if the balls end up in the diagrammed positions, then your opp. would essentially have a free shot at banking the 9 toward the 5 (I say free because it allows for an easy angle to send the cb between the 10 & 13 with speed to stop behind the stack, maybe stuck on the rail), which could result in a) the 5 going in the hole, b) the 9 going in off of the 5, or, and maybe worse yet, c) the 9 and 5 ending up surrounding the pocket with you stuck on the rail on the opposite side of the stack and virtually no possibility of a clearance shot. Even if your opp. played all cb and simply banked the 9 to his side and sent whitey behind the stack, it's not going to be pretty from there.
Granted, there aren't any great moves from here, but I think this one has the potential to send you out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I wasn't the one who made the diagram. The one who did diagrammed the cue ball getting frozen on the rail.
And I really don't think this bank is as easy as everyone makes it out to be. If you go for position on the one, this bank needs to be hit with a stun stroke. This stun stroke will increase the collision induced friction on this bank, straightening it out.
If you hit it with stun and right english to compensate, it's easy to put too much english and widen the bank too much. Besides the fact that with right english, the cue ball tends to move a little faster off this sort of cut. Which may not allow hiding behind the stack..
I might be wrong.. Who knows? I would however, like someone to film how this 12 bank is an absolute hanger. From the angle I see, if the 12 doesn't go, then you are going to have an easy time removing balls from in front of his pocket.
If someone can demonstrate how easy it is to accomplish everything they want while shooting out of the pocket, then I stand corrected.
I'm not a one-pocket expert either, but I would submit a guess that the risk/reward factor associated with your shot is a bit lopsided for most players to consider seriously. It's not so much that the risk is that high, although it is asking a lot of yourself (not to mention the table) to catch the ball that thinly while achieving the correct angle and speed. The main problem with the shot, as I see it, is that the reward is not high enough to justify the risk. The only reward I see here is that you might survive the inning, and, assuming you were able to execute the shot properly, you could potentially create worse problems for yourself by sweetening the deal on the 9-ball bank. Actually, the best reward I could see from your shot is if you caught too much of the 9, pushing it to the rail and doubling it up with the 11, and the cb glanced wide and pocketed the 5. That might actually improve your odds of winning this game dramatically.
But... if the balls end up in the diagrammed positions, then your opp. would essentially have a free shot at banking the 9 toward the 5 (I say free because it allows for an easy angle to send the cb between the 10 & 13 with speed to stop behind the stack, maybe stuck on the rail), which could result in a) the 5 going in the hole, b) the 9 going in off of the 5, or, and maybe worse yet, c) the 9 and 5 ending up surrounding the pocket with you stuck on the rail on the opposite side of the stack and virtually no possibility of a clearance shot. Even if your opp. played all cb and simply banked the 9 to his side and sent whitey behind the stack, it's not going to be pretty from there.
Granted, there aren't any great moves from here, but I think this one has the potential to send you out of the frying pan and into the fire.
That is the first shot I saw, actually, and I could execute this about 85%. I changed my mind, when I realized a slightly thinner hiton the nine, and I could snuggle up the the back side of the five without having to give my opponent a point, or a shot for that matter.
I wasn't the one who made the diagram. The one who did diagrammed the cue ball getting frozen on the rail.
And I really don't think this bank is as easy as everyone makes it out to be. If you go for position on the one, this bank needs to be hit with a stun stroke. This stun stroke will increase the collision induced friction on this bank, straightening it out.
If you hit it with stun and right english to compensate, it's easy to put too much english and widen the bank too much. Besides the fact that with right english, the cue ball tends to move a little faster off this sort of cut. Which may not allow hiding behind the stack..
I might be wrong.. Who knows? I would however, like someone to film how this 12 bank is an absolute hanger. From the angle I see, if the 12 doesn't go, then you are going to have an easy time removing balls from in front of his pocket.
If someone can demonstrate how easy it is to accomplish everything they want while shooting out of the pocket, then I stand corrected.
Well, obviously with that thin a hit, the 9 ball won't hit a rail.. So, in order not to lose a ball, you have to catch the rail right by the 5, which could lead to a scratch off the back of the 5 if you hit a bit too hard.
Now, keep in mind, i realize you are in WA state, and we both know the cloth there is slow because of the humidity, (it's where I came up in the game, around Mike Z., JD, etc..) so this might be a decent option there or in Florida, but anywhere there is faster cloth, I think a scratch is a definite danger.
Plus, if you move the 9 over and bump the 5 an inch or two, you open up a bank lane for the 9, and if I am right, I think the opponent could bank the 9 and get to the other side of the stack without leaving you a shot.
After this shot, you may come back to the table with two balls in front of his pocket. If he's like a lot of top players, he just banks the 9 ball in and runs out.
(gotta love that Rifleman). Here's what happened: 
