one pocket strange occurrence - what's the ruling?

M

moose man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).

I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.

He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash;)

It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.

What are your opinions?
 
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I hardly play one pocket, but my .02 cents are that the balls stay where they are since neither of you noticed it til after someone took a turn. My other thought if that is not correct is that they stay on the table but are spotted instead of staying where they are.
 
drv4 said:
I hardly play one pocket, but my .02 cents are that the balls stay where they are since neither of you noticed it til after someone took a turn. My other thought if that is not correct is that they stay on the table but are spotted instead of staying where they are.
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Thanks for your input!
 
One Pocket

That sure sounds like a move to me... why the hell would you put balls on the table in the middle of a game instead of in the rack? When he spotted one, he didn't pull up two or three balls and spot one, right? I call shenanigans... you only put balls on the table to spot them, or if you're out and you're putting your eight on the table... that's it.

And he'll have to post up next time... you quit, you lo$e.
 
Runner said:
That sure sounds like a move to me... why the hell would you put balls on the table in the middle of a game instead of in the rack? When he spotted one, he didn't pull up two or three balls and spot one, right? I call shenanigans... you only put balls on the table to spot them, or if you're out and you're putting your eight on the table... that's it.

And he'll have to post up next time... you quit, you lo$e.
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Hey Runner, thanks for sharing your thoughts. His argument was that he grabbed three balls from the ball return, set two of them on the table to clear his hands so that he could spot one, then forgot to pick them up and place them in his tray. My argument is that while it very well may be true that it went down that way, I'm not certain that it did, and it doesn't matter anyway. He screwed up and it's his fault, not mine. All balls on the table can factor into shot selection and effect the game. Although they were closer to his pocket then mine, I don't expect he was placing them there as a move. If it happened as he said, it was probably just forgetting.
 
I call BS. Whenever I play one pocket - after the inning I put my balls up first and then spot if need be. Same with my opponents.

We all know that your balls pocketed are what's important and I don't ever see people put balls on the table instead of off to the side/above the return.

I can't say whether it was a move or not but if he forgot his balls on the table and another inning was over after that I say they remain in play on the table.
 
Definitely sounds like a move, and if he's prone to tantrums like you said and is anything like the people i know, i'd say he most likely didn't pocket those balls. I'd say he did you a favor by breaking down. That's just me though as i can't stand playing people like that.
 
First, I feel like you should know if he pocketed one ball or more. If you know that they are his balls, I would probably just let him have them assuming they didn't affect any shot taken. Another option would be a rerack assuming you didn't have an advantage in the current game.

Legally, I would think they would stay on the table if shots were taken though.
 
LSU1018 said:
First, I feel like you should know if he pocketed one ball or more. If you know that they are his balls, I would probably just let him have them assuming they didn't affect any shot taken. Another option would be a rerack assuming you didn't have an advantage in the current game.

Legally, I would think they would stay on the table if shots were taken though.
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I think that he did pocket either two or three balls, but I'm just not absolutely certain. I also expect that he probably left them on the table as he claimed, but I'm less sure of that. I believe that it's probably the case because I have no better explanation for where the other one or two balls pocketed ended up after he spotted one. An onlooker suggested that the game count be restarted, and based on my expectation that Joe wasn't purposely pulling a move, I agreed that would be acceptable. I don't however agree that he should be able to pull balls off the table an inning or two later. Just about all balls on the table effect overall "layout", and layout effects shot selection. That being the case, it seems an awful lot like rewarding the guy who screwed up to let him claim them later. Regardless, he went into his typical childish behavior prior to any adult conversation being able to take place.
 
You guys should know how many he made. If you have to, go back and think about how he made that certain ball number. Then if you both know that those are his balls, you would be the bad guy for not giving him his balls back. It was an honest mistake. (Why would he give up balls he made just to have them on the bottom rail. Maybe the spot would be a move, but the rail?) If they didn't change the outcome of the game, take them back off of the table.

I have had an opponent do this a time or two while spotting balls, and had to tell them to take the balls off of the table before my shot. I guess that's why I watch my opponent spot balls.
 
I would call the game off.....same guy breaks.

Putting two balls back on the table might be one of the groggiest things I ever heard.
....shooting at the wrong hole is far more forgivable.

Either both players are sleepers, or the OP let him do it.

If the OP's opponent started to tell me how he was wronged after putting two balls BACK
ON THE TABLE, I would say "Stop right there...who waters you twice a day?"
 
TheMadScientist said:
You guys should know how many he made. If you have to, go back and think about how he made that certain ball number. Then if you both know that those are his balls, you would be the bad guy for not giving him his balls back. It was an honest mistake. (Why would he give up balls he made just to have them on the bottom rail. Maybe the spot would be a move, but the rail?) If they didn't change the outcome of the game, take them back off of the table.

I have had an opponent do this a time or two while spotting balls, and had to tell them to take the balls off of the table before my shot. I guess that's why I watch my opponent spot balls.
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Thanks for sharing your opinion. I don't know if either of us would've been able to recall the details of which ball/pockets etc, since when my opponent saw that I wasn't ready to concede the balls without discussion, he unscrewed his cue.

I also think that there is merit in the argument that the balls on the table changed the game just based on layout alone, (without being contacted).
 
moose man said:
Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).

I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.

He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash;)

It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.

What are your opinions?
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Nobody, spelled: NOBODY, puts balls they've pocketed on the table unless it's the end of the game. If this is the only guy in America who might have done that, he owes you a cogent explanation of the shots involved -- it's early in the game, he should be able to describe what happened. Barring that, they stay on the table in play.

Don't know what your history is playing this guy but your best move is to not play anyone who would pull a move like that, IMO.

Lou Figueroa
 
I don't know the history either... but lets just give the benefit of the doubt and say it was an honest mistake, and he did accidentally leave a couple of his balls on the table while spotting one.

I think the fairest thing to do is restart the game, with the same breaker. It was so early, that does not seem like a move to get out of playing that particular game.

Now, if there is a heated disagreement over a technicality like this, and one guy said F off and quits, in no way do I believe the other guy (you in this case) are entitled to the 50 for that game. That game is just void.

These are my gambling opinions:) Your's may vary:)
 
iusedtoberich said:
I don't know the history either... but lets just give the benefit of the doubt and say it was an honest mistake, and he did accidentally leave a couple of his balls on the table while spotting one.

I think the fairest thing to do is restart the game, with the same breaker. It was so early, that does not seem like a move to get out of playing that particular game.

Now, if there is a heated disagreement over a technicality like this, and one guy said F off and quits, in no way do I believe the other guy (you in this case) are entitled to the 50 for that game. That game is just void.

These are my gambling opinions:) Your's may vary:)
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I understand what you're saying but I just cannot recall anyone ever putting pocketed ball on the table. If there's three or four in the return and you owe, you put one or two on the spot and what's left goes onto your side or pocket.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
I understand what you're saying but I just cannot recall anyone ever putting pocketed ball on the table. If there's three or four in the return and you owe, you put one or two on the spot and what's left goes onto your side or pocket.

Lou Figueroa
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I agree. It kind of seems he took them for a "pit stop" during the spot, then forgot to pick them up to put wherever they were putting them (if it was an honest mistake). Also seemed strange the OP said they looked at a neighboring table ball box. Were you guys keeping score on the other table too, for one opponent? Confused.
 
What is the rule or common action to take if a player owes a ball, makes a ball and forgets to spot it before the next player shoots?

Here the common practice is it gets spotted between turns.

Usually owed balls are marked by coins on the rail.
 
I am always amazed at how many players can't be bothered with getting their balls out of the return after their inning , they leave them there for 3 or 4 shots and then if there are 5 down there , they all belong to them.
Whenever I am playing one of these donkeys , I just sit in my chair until they figure out they need to get their balls, sometimes i have to point to the return to get them to pull their heads out.
It only takes once or twice and they get sick of looking at me looking at them like they are dumbasses, which they are.
There are 100 possible moves from this "forgetfullness" and I'm not going for any of them.
I'm also not getting them out for you every time and babysitting.
If he put the 2 balls on the table he made an error right there, then he spotted the ball and forgot to put them in his pocket or holder , thats his problem , not yours.
If you had already shot before the error was noticed, I would either say that game is null and void and start another one, if they don't want to do that I would say , take the 2 balls off the table for an inning each and spot them back up and continue or I would say , the mistake was yours, I'm done .
From past experience I know that about the only way you are going to get paid in this situation is if you beat on him a while .
I also know, I would not be paying him unless he had been beating on me for a while.
This is why there needs to be a uniform set of rules that professionals go by and in
gambling matches unless the 2 players make their own rules.
And they need to be followed all the time every time or you end up with these types of scenario forever.
 
I would say you need to pay better attention to the game if you want to gamble.

I watched a stream of Efren gambling with Bobby Emmons a couple years ago. During the entire three sets Efren never took his eye off the table or sit down. At one point Bobby questioned the ball count and Efren visually displayed every shot in the game to that point.

Your opponent was goofy for forgetting to pick up the balls but you need to pay better attention to prevent this stuff from happening.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I agree. It kind of seems he took them for a "pit stop" during the spot, then forgot to pick them up to put wherever they were putting them (if it was an honest mistake). Also seemed strange the OP said they looked at a neighboring table ball box. Were you guys keeping score on the other table too, for one opponent? Confused.
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To answer the question regarding the other table: Since the Diamond table we were playing on doesn't have drop pockets, it's common that people place them in a tray or just on the snooker table nearby (usually always available after the mid day golf game ends).
 
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