Open Question: Does it matter to you if a manufacturer moves "US" product overseas?

[poolguy4u]

I was looking at 1x1 cue cases in a local mom n pop store. I liked the Lucasi branded case over the Player branded case as it had Made in USA on the opposite side of the Lucasi tag. The Players were import. I understand they are the same parent company.

The case I purchased was not the floor model, but the same in every aspect except the Lucasi tag had an American flag on the opposite side. I thought it looked cool.

It wasn't until months later I found the Made in China tag inside the storage pocket.

Lots of people on the internet say the best cases in the world are made in China.


Heck, people are even saying copies are being made after the ones made in China....LOL




:thumbup:




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[Wieguns]

I don't have a problem with imported products, as long as they are accurately described. ie. Made and Assembled in America, Assembled in America, Made in America and Assembled "elsewhere", Made and Assembled "elsewhere."

I want to be an informed buyer about my purchase, and if I want a truly american made product, I want to know where it is built and sourced from.

I also agree with what a few people have said regarding better quality coming from imports. That is frustrating to see as I believe we have the talent in the US to deliver top notch products and solution.

Lastly, I will pay a premium price to support american business, as long as the product is aslo premium.

 

[justinb386]

This is a question that means quite a lot to me. This is not a flame... please don't take it that way. Not a political stance whatsoever... I just really want to know your opinion because I am really struggling with this as an American worker...

My background... very quickly:

I have worked more than 26 years of my adult life in manufacturing in the United States. I have supported my US suppliers, my US distributors and encouraged my customers to support American Employees. I wish I were kidding when I said I purchased millions of dollars worth of parts and equipment... but I'm not. And all were American made and kept Americans at work.

Now... I get 100% confirmation (I have email proof provided from the source that tells me the product is now imported) today that a notable cue manufacturer (who already markets import lines) that touts itself as "Made in the USA" has replaced previously US made products with imports and just simply omits it from the description and markets under their US made name.

First... I understand that most production cue manufacturers have import lines... it seems to be a necessary evil (and some do it better than others) but this is the first confirmation that I have seen that this major company is now marketing imports under it's "American Made" trademarked name.

It bothers me...

Does it bother any of you?

Yeah, I would not be happy about that either. I assume you are not going to say which of the US cue companies no longer makes any cues in the US? There are not many left here in the US that build cues here. There are the only ones that I can think of.

Schon
Joss
Meucci
Viking (has an import line)
McDermott (has an import line)
Schmelke
OB
Tiger
Pechauer
Jacoby

I might be missing a few, and those last few (and a few others on my list) are arguably custom cue makers.

I can only think of 2 American cue makers that have an import line of cues, and I can't imagine that either of those 2 cue makers will ever completely move their cue company overseas, because both McDermott and Viking make a very good quality cue (made in the USA), and they are both very popular brands.

 

[justinb386]

If I buy something, I want to know where it is made.

I may purchase it, no matter where it comes from, but I don't like lying SOBs or deceitful practices.

Tell me UP FRONT where it is from.

If you know what you are buying (and have done your research on the company), then you should have no reason not to trust them. Viking and McDermott have been around for how long? 40 years or longer? They are a trusted American made cue company, and I am sure they still build cues here in the US. I can't think of any others that might have moved their cue company overseas.

 

[justinb386]

Yes it bothers me. Apparently they are trying to hide it...or at least let buyers believe the product is US made.

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Who specifically is trying to hide it? I am very curious to know.

 

[justinb386]

Businesses in America have been allowed to do this for years. Not only that they have been encouraged to do so by the folks that we elected. They lied to us, the businesses lied to us and it has become the American way. Yes it sucks, Yes I don't like it and I attempt to purchase things that are made or is it assembled in America whenever I can. America today is nothing at all like it was when I was a young man. It's very sad.

That is really messed up. Money and profit trumps everything else (it is the only thing that is important to many of the manufacturers).

 

[justinb386]

What I have noticed is that sometimes the imported product, is better made, better wood, better machining, better fit and finish. That is what bothers me.

Yeah, and Lucasi makes an amazing hitting cue. They really upped their quality over the years. I am really impressed. I want me a Lucasi Hybrid someday (if I can ever afford one).

 

[justinb386]

The price never reflects the cheap labor cost in other countries, especially China. They're money hungry marketing experts and think nothing of charging a custom cue price for banged out product. Most buyers don't know the difference.
As you grow older, you'll be able to examine anything and easily tell that it's an import.
Remember the old saying "Let the buyer beware."
I personally have a great deal of respect for any cues or pool products made in Japan. They not only meet high standards, but exceed US made, in quality, value and performance.

Yeah, I always thought that Adam / Helmstetter was a really great cue maker (from Japan). Always loved Helmstetter cues. Great quality cues, and super nice hitting cues too. They are no longer in business (I read that Miki / Mezz cues actually made the Adam / Helmstetter cues), so they were actually made by the same people ho now make Mezz cues. Balabushka cues (that were made by Miki / Adam for a long time) are now made in China (I read somewhere on here years ago).

 

[justinb386]

Jr,

Having spent 38 years in the consumer electronics business beginning in the 60's, I remember when Japanees manufacturers used to have "made in usa" on the boxes. Notice usa not USA? It was a city in Japan. We bought the goods anyway. Who is responsible for the current mess? YOU, ME and everyone who valued price more than where a product was manufactured. For many, many years our government has been complicit in giving the imports an advantage. It was always the fault of the Republicans or Democrats. No, it was you and me!

Perhaps you remember Lucky Gold Star products? Some were laughablely cheap imitations of major American brands. Today that company is LG. They are everywhere and most of their products are excellent. Honda and Toyota are more American made than Ford or Chevy.

Sam Walton was one of the smartest businessman ever! He took an entire business and went from only American made products to basically nothing but Chinese. People flock to Walmarts for the cheap prices not realizing it is destroying their jobs and their country. I've said it many times in the past here but it deserves one more reminder. As HL Mencken once said, "no one ever lost a buck UNDERESTIMATING the intelligence of the American public". Although predating our current President by one hundred years, he also said "for every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and WRONG"!

Lyn

Jr, Is your phine number BR 549?

You forget that with the low minimum wage, and the high housing costs (and living expenses), that shopping at Walmart is all that many of us Americans can afford to shop at. People buy what they can afford to buy. Many of us need places like Walmart and Dollar Tree.

 

[justinb386]

From the OP I get the impression that the manufacturer is not actively lying, just not coming clean about the source. They may have removed the 'made in America' label but continue to use the brand name that is associated with the old production.
As far as producing overseas, watch a couple of episodes of Shark Tank. The billionaires on that show are always asking if the products are made overseas, and if the answer is no, they want to know why not? I've seen them totally pass on great business ideas because the owners won't move production.
As far as made in America goes, they need to figure out a happy medium. I was listening to a piece about an American company that made clothing from American cotton in the US, so I hit up their website. A t-shirt was $35. You had better have a pretty compelling argument if you want common people to buy $35 t-shirts.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

Ralph Lauren shirts are like $60, and they are NOT made in America.

 

[justinb386]

Until and unless the OP comes forward and clarifies specifically what manufacturer he's talking about and what evidence he has, I'm not biting on this.

So far, crickets...

Maybe it is Dale Perry? He sure does make a lot of cues to list on ebay for $99 starting bid, and many wonder if they are really made by him, or imported. I forgot about him before.

 

[justinb386]

I would absolutely, positively say it is NOT OB Cues. They are still made in Texas. McDermott and Viking as well as others already import some of their cue lines from China.

What others? I can only think of McDermott and Viking. I am very curious. Thanks.

 

[justinb386]

I suppose the term "Globally Manufactured" now has become code for made in China; at least that's how I see it. And I don't think anyone would expect a line of cues priced from $35 to $99 to be made in the US.

To me anyway, there doesn't appear to be any real attempt at subterfuge here. If anyone wants to think that a $35 cue said by the manufacturer to be "globally manufactured" is made in the USA I'd say it was just the law of natural selection at work. But the OP's inference was that there were cues being directly represented as US made now being made overseas. To me, that would be like McDermott sourcing parts of it's "McDermott" branded line overseas. Whole different deal and I for one would be extremely disappointed if that were the case.

Again, this is why I think the OP owes it to us to clear this up. He certainly had no problem in starting it in the first place!

Dale Perry cues (which he claims are built by him, in his Florida shop) sell for an average of a $100 on ebay. Could they possibly be from China? He sure does build a lot of cues to list on ebay. I do not know how he does it by himself.

 

[justinb386]

A loophole even Sam was guilty of in the Nafta agreement was the labels were made in the USA. That made it ok .I personally have never shopped at that store and wont.But i dont believe foreign is better .It isnt about labor ,its about taxes and no E.P.A or safety rules.

People shop where they can afford to shop at (with the money they can afford to spend). Where is it that you can afford to shop at (who only makes stuff that is Made in America)? You must have a good job I assume.

 

[justinb386]

People who say they won't buy a cue that is made in China, but will buy every other product from China are hypocrites.

I would think that if you went into just about any store in the USA and blindly picked up 100 items (excluding groceries) that the majority of them would be made in China or some other country.

Everything from underwear to fans to electronics to car parts to dishware, etc., etc., etc. is made in China.

If you don't buy something made outside the USA, you are spending 10 times what it costs to buy the item or you are just one frugal SOB who doesn't buy anything.

I lived in Taipei way back when you could buy cues there for $2 each and I never bought a single one. They were junk for the most part, but they had a few lines that actually had maple shafts with wood imported from the USA. Today, they can, and do, make cues that can compete with most any that are made in the USA.

Many of the companies that manufacture things in China are actually outsourcing of products from countries other than China. Taiwan has thousands of factories in China because it is cheaper than making their stuff in Taiwan.

I can remember back in the early 60's when everybody laughed at shit made in Japan and said it was junk. For the most part, it was. But now they make shit that is highly prized around the world. Mezz cues are a prime example.

If the American workers didn't price themselves out of competition (not in just cue making), then people wouldn't be buying most of their shit from foreign manufacturers.

Everything is relative. You want high wages because you want a car, a house, etc. So does the Chinese guy. The cost of living there is cheaper than it is here. They can afford to make it cheaper and live in the same life style that you gave up because you wanted something even higher.

There is nothing wrong with that, but everything goes in a circle. We were at the top and now the circle is turning. People are catching up. We aren't the only kid on the block anymore. There are others. You have to come up with a new game to stay ahead.

That was a great post.

 

[justinb386]

I back OB products because they are in Texas, plus I like the fact they are pretty active on the forums. Anyone see any other major cuemaker rep or owner come on AZB?

Not that I ever bought one before, but that thing with Carrier moving production overseas after talking to Trump and saying they would not will make me stay away from that company.

Cars is not much of an issue since many cars from Japan are made in US factories with US workers getting jobs there.

Electronics, clothing, pretty much impossible to keep to US made products and many of the Chinese cheap stuff you can find on eBay or Amazon are the same products US companies buy and rebrand but with a 200% markup.

Guitars are big with having product made overseas and in the US both, and all of mine are overseas made mid-range models from US companies.

McDermott has amazing customer service, and the guy from there is very nice. He actually posted on here once about an inquiry that I made about a cue years ago.

 

[Scott Lee]

Jesus Justin...14 posts in a row? Why do you feel like you HAVE to respond to every post in a thread...even if you didn't start the thread? :shrug: BTW, the answer is Viking. They're the only cue company to go BK and get "resurrected" as an "American" company.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[MitchAlsup]

Very nicely stated.

People who say they won't buy a cue that is made in China, but will buy every other product from China are hypocrites.

I would think that if you went into just about any store in the USA and blindly picked up 100 items (excluding groceries) that the majority of them would be made in China or some other country.

Everything from underwear to fans to electronics to car parts to dishware, etc., etc., etc. is made in China.

If you don't buy something made outside the USA, you are spending 10 times what it costs to buy the item or you are just one frugal SOB who doesn't buy anything.

I lived in Taipei way back when you could buy cues there for $2 each and I never bought a single one. They were junk for the most part, but they had a few lines that actually had maple shafts with wood imported from the USA. Today, they can, and do, make cues that can compete with most any that are made in the USA.

Many of the companies that manufacture things in China are actually outsourcing of products from countries other than China. Taiwan has thousands of factories in China because it is cheaper than making their stuff in Taiwan.

I can remember back in the early 60's when everybody laughed at shit made in Japan and said it was junk. For the most part, it was. But now they make shit that is highly prized around the world. Mezz cues are a prime example.

If the American workers didn't price themselves out of competition (not in just cue making), then people wouldn't be buying most of their shit from foreign manufacturers.

If Americans were content have a family of 4-5 live in 1,400 sq feet houses on 9,000 sq ft lots and share a single car amongst every member of the family, with 1 TV, and 1 land line phone, we could probably become <labor> cost effective to manufacture, again.

But with every driver in a family having one or more vehicles, 3,000 sq ft houses, everyone with a computer, cell phone,... ... ... there is no way.....

In any event, when manufacturing does come back, the jobs won't because robots will end up performing the tasks.

Everything is relative. You want high wages because you want a car, a house, etc. So does the Chinese guy. The cost of living there is cheaper than it is here. They can afford to make it cheaper and live in the same life style that you gave up because you wanted something even higher.

In effect, this argument is: In order to compete with another laborer, your productivity times your wage must be lower than his productivity times his wage.

Education (skills development) and mechanization are typical ways to improve productivity--but we seem to be doing as much as possible to kill off the school system in this country.

There is nothing wrong with that, but everything goes in a circle. We were at the top and now the circle is turning. People are catching up. We aren't the only kid on the block anymore. There are others. You have to come up with a new game to stay ahead.

 

[JB Cases]

manufacturing is at an all-time high in the USA. Because of robots and efficient methods. inefficient needy humans are expensive to employ on assembly lines.

As for brands moving their production outside the USA? I see no problem with that. A brand starts because someone somewhere decides to invest their money and time and sweat into it and if they are successful they can hire more people to help out. If those people end up costing too much or some other cost is too high then the brand owner has every right to move their production elsewhere.

Do you condemn individuals for changing jobs? Of course not. Every person has the right to move wherever they want to and take whatever job they can get to maximize their personal income. Why shouldn't a business have the same right?

Does that sound cold-hearted? At the basest level it is. But I believe that business owners have every right to do whatever they want with their business that is legal even if it's cold and heartless. But I believe that many business owners would prefer to keep their production as close to their customers as possible and would prefer to employ as many of their fellow citizens as possible.

What I do not find to be acceptable is to deceive consumers about where the product is made. I personally do not care what patch of earth a product is made on. I only care how well it is made. BUT I know that many people place a lot of stock in having a certain "made in xxx" tag on something. So for that reason, I do not appreciate competing against those who deliberately wrap themselves in a desireable flag because they know that consumers will assign a higher quality level and patriotic fervor to that flag.

 

[pwd72s]

Craftsman wrenches no longer bear the words "forged in the USA". As a guy who likes to do minor wrenching on his cars, I'm glad I bought my tools when I did. If I were buying today, I'd probably go Proto or snap-on. No real problem buying other imported (Chinese) goods that work well, but cheap wrenches? Nope...

Yeah, I know..Snap-on costs a LOT more, but there is a reason pro mechanics like the brand. For a do it yourself car nut the old USA Craftsman stuff was a great tool maker. Sadly, no more.