Open Question: Does it matter to you if a manufacturer moves "US" product overseas?

[Poolplaya9]

How about when Unions do take concessions to help their company?
Because they care.
The company gets back on their feet.

:rotflmao1: Unions don't care about the company or all the rest of all Americans who are negatively affected by unions. You care only about yourselves and take concessions only when you have to in order to keep your jobs, either because it would push the company far enough to be worth it to them to take the losses associated with replacing the large numbers of employees at once, or because it would cause the company to go under.

Now the wotkers would like to get a little back.

You already get something back. It is called your paycheck. You aren't entitled to anything more than what you as an individual and the company agree to.

PP9
We have people leaving the Non-Union sector all the time to join us.

It isn't hard to attract thieves. Free stuff always gets supporters. We have a whole political party built on it. I totally agree that you have no problems at all finding people who want more than they are worth. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who don't have very high values or ethics.

Apparently Unions are still necessary.

Only for those than want more than they are worth and are willing to steal by force to get it.

It us not all about wages either. I hear their many reasons all the time.

You are a little off base.
You seem to only be focused on the wages.

While I did concentrate mostly on pay, I also referenced the "demands" that unions make which could be anything, and I also talked about various working conditions and even gave examples. But in case I wasn't clear enough, collective coercion is wrong whether it is to get money, any other forms of compensation, different working conditions, different perks, or anything else whatsoever of any value whatsoever (not just monetary).

We also have this thing called collective bargaining.

Yup, and it is wrong. Should companies be allowed to collectively bargain so they can screw employees by setting artificial salary caps and whatever else? Of course not, but they damn sure should be allowed to if you are allowed to. What makes you think it wrong if the other guy does it but ok if you do it?

We do quite well.

Of course you do. It is easy to do well when you are stealing by use of collective coercion.

So do the owners.

If the owners do well you can be damn sure it is in spite of the unions and not because of them. Unions benefit nobody but the workers in the union. The company and everybody else in America suffers and is worse off because of them.

Here is some food for thought for you. If you are worth better than what your company offers, whether it be better pay or better conditions or whatever else, then why don't you just go to another company and get it? What's that you say, because you can't? You can't because you are not actually worth it at all in a free market, which is why you have to attempt to subvert the free market by attempting to steal it from the place where you are already at by strong arming them through collective coercion to put them in a position where they don't really have a choice to give you more than you are worth. You stole it. It is along the same lines as kidnappers who take a hostage to get a ransom for the hostage except you hold the company hostage in order to get your ransom.

 

[9andout]

:rotflmao1: Unions don't care about the company or all the rest of all Americans who are negatively affected by unions. You care only about yourselves and take concessions only when you have to in order to keep your jobs, either because it would push the company far enough to be worth it to them to take the losses associated with replacing the large numbers of employees at once, or because it would cause the company to go under.


You already get something back. It is called your paycheck. You aren't entitled to anything more than what you as an individual and the company agree to.


It isn't hard to attract thieves. Free stuff always gets supporters. We have a whole political party built on it. I totally agree that you have no problems at all finding people who want more than they are worth. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who don't have very high values or ethics.


Only for those than want more than they are worth and are willing to steal by force to get it.


While I did concentrate mostly on pay, I also referenced the "demands" that unions make which could be anything, and I also talked about various working conditions and even gave examples. But in case I wasn't clear enough, collective coercion is wrong whether it is to get money, any other forms of compensation, different working conditions, different perks, or anything else whatsoever of any value whatsoever (not just monetary).


Yup, and it is wrong. Should companies be allowed to collectively bargain so they can screw employees by setting artificial salary caps and whatever else? Of course not, but they damn sure should be allowed to if you are allowed to. What makes you think it wrong if the other guy does it but ok if you do it?


Of course you do. It is easy to do well when you are stealing by use of collective coercion.


If the owners do well you can be damn sure it is in spite of the unions and not because of them. Unions benefit nobody but the workers in the union. The company and everybody else in America suffers and is worse off because of them.

Here is some food for thought for you. If you are worth better than what your company offers, whether it be better pay or better conditions or whatever else, then why don't you just go to another company and get it? What's that you say, because you can't? You can't because you are not actually worth it at all in a free market, which is why you have to attempt to subvert the free market by attempting to steal it from the place where you are already at by strong arming them through collective coercion to put them in a position where they don't really have a choice to give you more than you are worth. You stole it. It is along the same lines as kidnappers who take a hostage to get a ransom for the hostage except you hold the company hostage in order to get your ransom.

Wow!! You have a lot of misguided hate sir.
The market I'm in is all about competition.
And we are winning. Sorry. Just a fact.
........
PP9
"Telling it like he THINKS it is"
^^^ Fixed that for you^^^^^

 

[Poolplaya9]

Wow!! You have a lot of misguided hate sir.

Yes I have thieves and theft. Always have, and always will. Too bad we don't all feel that way.

The market I'm in is all about competition.

Every market is about competition. When it comes to someone's employment though competition is when you go to the highest bidder for the best overall compensation package (to include pay, hours, working conditions, perks, etc) for your employment. If somebody else will offer you better, then you are worth more and you switch over to that new company, or maybe your current one will match it to get you to stay.

As soon as you can't easily go somewhere else and get a better overall compensation package you have found out exactly what you are actually worth though, so either accept it, or do something to improve yourself to make yourself a more valuable employee who is worth more to some employer. Holding a company hostage by colluding with many others to try to make them have to give you more than you are worth is not competition at all though, that is just downright theft through coercion. If you are to be allowed to do that then companies should also be allowed to band together to force you to have to accept whatever salary and conditions etc that they all collectively decide to force on you where you don't have a choice but to accept it either, the same way you are doing to them. If it is ok for you to do, then it is ok for the next guy to do too.

And we are winning. Sorry. Just a fact.

Well in one sense yes, since at the current time it is so easy to get what you want but that you don't deserve by just stealing it by force. On the flip side, unions are losing ground and more people are waking up to what they really are and how much of a negative impact they have and how much they cost everyone in dollars and jobs lost so in that sense the thieves are losing. Unfortunately it will take laws to stop union thieves and hopefully they will happen, sooner rather than later, and there is some promise on the horizon but only time will tell how long it actually takes.

 

[TILT9]

we've all had enough of the "Disposable" mind set.
I still shop Sears , Home Depot , Kmart , buy auto parts at NAPA.
Have to visit antique clothing shops to get LEVI'S that fit.
Mexico has pretty good stuff , Canadian products suck , take home cooking where I can get it.
Do I miss made in U.S.A. , yes, very much.
ie: great big beach balls - "made in New Jersey".

 

[JolietJames]

I've worked as both a union and management employee fit a large company. Unions do more harm than good period.
Back on topic, yes it bothers me when manufacturing moves out of the US. I always look for US made products when I shop for anything I intend to keep for a while. As far as pool equipment goes, my cues and my GOOD case were made in the US. I purchased a cheap used case for leagues and don't know/care where it was made.
In my current industry, we are seeing some manufacturing returning to the states -from Malaysia.

 

[onepocketron]

Unions are one of the biggest reasons the jobs are all going overseas to begin with. If we are ever blessed enough to be able to get rid of all the unions we would get a large number of those jobs back.

Unions are nothing more than legalized theft that should have never been allowed to be made legal. You are worth whatever pay you can get in a truly free job market (which means a union free market) and not a penny more--not what you can manage to steal by strong arming and coercion. The theft from unions costs all of us tremendously through significantly higher prices for goods and services, and tons of lost jobs. And then these same idiots want to put the last nail in our coffin with this movement for really large minimum wages. Some people just can't see the forest for all the trees.

I simply disagree. Have you ever worked in a union shop, or are you just saying what you have been spoon fed by others. Just because someone is in a union shop does not mean they are getting paid more than they are worth.
It also does not mean they are strong arming anyone. I think you are reciting what you have read and been spoon fed, not from real life experience.

I personally work in a union manufacturing shop. I am NOT in the union, but am on the other side, I am a member of the managment team.

We produce a variety of goods from materials that go into pharma industry, as well as the electronics industry. We sell world wide, as a matter of fact, most of our customers are NOT in the USA, most are overseas. We produce a very high quality product, and our products are not cheap.

The managment team here works closely with the union and it's members. Our union employees take pride in their work, and have a huge amount of focus on quality and safety for our facility and employees. I would put our guys and gals up against any non union shop with regard to work ethic, safety, and quality. It states plainly on our lables "Made in the USA" so there is no doubt where it was manufactured.

Unions will never go away simply because unlike our operation, many employers want to strong arm the employees, make unreasonable demands, and not pay them what they are worth, hence, unions will be around for a long time.

Personally on the deal of buying US or non US, I could care less as I want a product that is of high quality, and lasts. If it meets that criteria, I will buy it even if it is made in the arctic circle. I buy Toyotas and they are more American made now days than Chevy or Ford. What does that tell you about the US manufacturing environment? American manufacturers, and their workers became lazy, didn't worry about quality, and in generneral just dropped the ball completely. When that happened, others took the ball and ran with it. I'm going with the guy that gives me a high quality product every single time, not some maybe yes, maybe no outfit.

All of my cues are made by an American cue maker right down the road, and that will never change, because he is a fanatic about quality, and stands behind his work.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Just because someone is in a union shop does not mean they are getting paid more than they are worth.

Yes it does. That is the sole purpose of unions. A free market is what gets you what you are worth. Unions exist for the sole purpose of using collective coercion to get more than you are worth.

It also does not mean they are strong arming anyone.

When you band together to put someone in a position through coercion where they have no real choice but to give in to your demands then strong arming is exactly what it is. It is no different than if all the companies banded together and set artificially low wage limits etc to where you really had no choice but to have to give in and accept it, yet for some reason you think it is perfectly ok for you to do it to someone else but not ok for them to do it to you.

We produce a variety of goods from materials that go into pharma industry, as well as the electronics industry. We sell world wide, as a matter of fact, most of our customers are NOT in the USA, most are overseas. We produce a very high quality product, and our products are not cheap.

Whoop-de-frickin-do. You could do the exact same thing without having a union just like plenty of other companies and employees do, but instead you want to cost everybody else because your employees just had to steal more than they were worth.

Unions will never go away simply because unlike our operation, many employers want to strong arm the employees, make unreasonable demands, and not pay them what they are worth, hence, unions will be around for a long time.

That's nonsense. If you were worth more then you would be able to go to another company and get it. If you can't go somewhere else and do better it is because you are not in fact worth more at all, otherwise somebody would be glad to give it to you. There is no doubt you want more, even though you aren't worth more, hence the whole purpose for a union so that you can use collective coercion to try to steal what it is that you want by force. You are like any other product in that you are only worth what somebody is willing to voluntarily pay when they are not under the duress of force by collective coercion. Stop strong arming to steal more than you are worth because you are really just stealing from all the rest of us because all the rest of us are the ones that are having to pay for it through the lost jobs and increased costs for goods and services. Take what you are worth in the free market like everybody else and stop being thieves.

To bring it a little closer to the original topic, while buying American is nice and important, buying the products and services only from companies that are union free is just as important, otherwise you are just costing yourselves and shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Ak Guy]

Yes

I prefer to buy American, but don't always do it. The Russian chalk is an example.

 

[KRJ]

IPersonally on the deal of buying US or non US, I could care less as I want a product that is of high quality, and lasts. If it meets that criteria, I will buy it even if it is made in the arctic circle. I buy Toyotas and they are more American made now days than Chevy or Ford. [.

Not to nit pick, but you do realize that Toyota is all non union, right? just saying. For whatever reason, without a union, Toyota is able to pay their employees more than fairly, with year round work, using American workers, who by all accounts do a great job for Toyo.

But, with that said, there are some industries that do need unions, because of the way they are treated or compensated, because not all companies do the right thing, just like all employees don't either

 

[chefjeff]

Isn't it great that each of us gets to choose what he buys, from whom he buys, and from where it's made, at what price, etc. etc.

THAT is how it should always work. Win/win is better than win/lose or worse, lose/lose as so many govt schemes end up eventually.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Poolplaya9]

...there are some industries that do need unions, because of the way they are treated or compensated, because not all companies do the right thing...

You don't need a union for that because the free market already takes care of that perfectly. When an employee doesn't feel he is being treated fairly or compensated fairly he just moves on to another company who will give him more/better. If he can't find better then he was obviously already being treated more than fairly where he was, and if he can go and find better then just take that new position and the problem is solved. The free market ensures people get treated according to their worth, and it also ensures that companies have to stay reasonably competitive with each other over how they treat an employee of a particular value.

On an unrelated note I am not even sure there is such a thing as "companies not doing the right thing" with the exception of the company not honoring an agreement with an employee because all the company owes the employee is what the two of them agreed upon when the employee was hired.

 

[Coop1701]

A long long time ago..., in a galaxy far far away...., Unions use to be a good thing. To be honest their time has past and they should go away. They are not there to help nor protect the employees and members any more. They are a money making lobbying group.

Sadly they will probably never go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[KRJ]

You don't need a union for that because the free market already takes care of that perfectly. When an employee doesn't feel he is being treated fairly or compensated fairly he just moves on to another company who will give him more/better. If he can't find better then he was obviously already being treated more than fairly where he was, and if he can go and find better then just take that new position and the problem is solved. The free market ensures people get treated according to their worth, and it also ensures that companies have to stay reasonably competitive with each other over how they treat an employee of a particular value.

On an unrelated note I am not even sure there is such a thing as "companies not doing the right thing" with the exception of the company not honoring an agreement with an employee because all the company owes the employee is what the two of them agreed upon when the employee was hired.

Well, without getting too complicated you know how many folks use to fall to their death because companies would not buy proper safety equipment or provide training to employees. It was cheaper to just replace them with another guy. Stuff like this spurred the advent of unions back in the day. So, yeah, there are sill bad companies and such.

And quitting just because it's unsafe is not always the best option. Sometimes folks stick up for themselves so the next guy in line doesn't get killed, injured or poisoned.

Some companies don't know that it costs more to hire and train new employees so it's better to keep them... but just cause they own a business does not make them smart. Lots of money being flushed down the drain by lots of companies in various areas... I know, I work for one of them

I may not always agree with unions or their bribes of democratic officials but I understand why folks would join if they are mis-treated... and I'm not talking about getting a raise or not, but talking about folks being injured or worse. Some are needed and some are not. I don't think many things in life are "either / or " imho.

 

[alstl]

This gets into politics but I would say it depends on why it is moving overseas. When politicians of a certain persuasion over regulate/tax industries knowing full well it will drive the industry overseas because the politicians are on the take for globalists then it bothers me.

If employees who are making a good living go on strike or otherwise make life miserable for the owner then it's hard to feel sorry for them when the owner moves off shore.

 

[KRJ]

This gets into politics but I would say it depends on why it is moving overseas. When politicians of a certain persuasion over regulate/tax industries knowing full well it will drive the industry overseas because the politicians are on the take for globalists then it bothers me.

If employees who are making a good living go on strike or otherwise make life miserable for the owner then it's hard to feel sorry for them when the owner moves off shore.

Yep, lots of factors contribute, and one size does not fit all. Even the passage of NAFTA which encouraged companies to move factories to Mexico, cheaper labor rates without any penalties for shipping back to USA. Ford and many others went that route and many are still are doing it. We'll see if this is changed eventually?

 

[9andout]

Yes I have thieves and theft. Always have, and always will. Too bad we don't all feel that way.

So you admit to stealing?

I simply disagree. Have you ever worked in a union shop, or are you just saying what you have been spoon fed by others. Just because someone is in a union shop does not mean they are getting paid more than they are worth.
It also does not mean they are strong arming anyone. I think you are reciting what you have read and been spoon fed, not from real life experience.

I personally work in a union manufacturing shop. I am NOT in the union, but am on the other side, I am a member of the managment team.

We produce a variety of goods from materials that go into pharma industry, as well as the electronics industry. We sell world wide, as a matter of fact, most of our customers are NOT in the USA, most are overseas. We produce a very high quality product, and our products are not cheap.

The managment team here works closely with the union and it's members. Our union employees take pride in their work, and have a huge amount of focus on quality and safety for our facility and employees. I would put our guys and gals up against any non union shop with regard to work ethic, safety, and quality. It states plainly on our lables "Made in the USA" so there is no doubt where it was manufactured.

Unions will never go away simply because unlike our operation, many employers want to strong arm the employees, make unreasonable demands, and not pay them what they are worth, hence, unions will be around for a long time.

Well said.

You don't need a union for that because the free market already takes care of that perfectly. When an employee doesn't feel he is being treated fairly or compensated fairly he just moves on to another company who will give him more/better. If he can't find better then he was obviously already being treated more than fairly where he was, and if he can go and find better then just take that new position and the problem is solved. The free market ensures people get treated according to their worth, and it also ensures that companies have to stay reasonably competitive with each other over how they treat an employee of a particular value.

On an unrelated note I am not even sure there is such a thing as "companies not doing the right thing" with the exception of the company not honoring an agreement with an employee because all the company owes the employee is what the two of them agreed upon when the employee was hired.

So much hate.
Did you fail a Union apprenticeship test?
It's just a yes or no question.
Try to answer in 100 words or less this time!!

Well, without getting too complicated you know how many folks use to fall to their death because companies would not buy proper safety equipment or provide training to employees. It was cheaper to just replace them with another guy. Stuff like this spurred the advent of unions back in the day. So, yeah, there are sill bad companies and such.

And quitting just because it's unsafe is not always the best option. Sometimes folks stick up for themselves so the next guy in line doesn't get killed, injured or poisoned.

Some companies don't know that it costs more to hire and train new employees so it's better to keep them... but just cause they own a business does not make them smart. Lots of money being flushed down the drain by lots of companies in various areas... I know, I work for one of them

I may not always agree with unions or their bribes of democratic officials but I understand why folks would join if they are mis-treated... and I'm not talking about getting a raise or not, but talking about folks being injured or worse. Some are needed some or not. I don't think many things in life are "either / or " imho.

Well said.........But PP9 is blinded by inner hate.
It's quite sad.

 

[chefjeff]

Well said.........But PP9 is blinded by inner hate.
It's quite sad.

I don't see any hate, but I do see lots of research and facts backing his claims.

He took the time and you dissed him for that and then you say HE is blinded by hate?

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, unless you know him from elsewhere and know more than he's posted so far on azb.

Btw, he and I went at each other last month I think re taxes.




Jeff Livingston

 

[9andout]

I don't see any hate, but I do see lots of research and facts backing his claims.

He took the time and you dissed him for that and then you say HE is blinded by hate?

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, unless you know him from elsewhere and know more than he's posted so far on azb.

Btw, he and I went at each other last month I think re taxes.
Jeff Livingston

His tone and posts on this speak volumes.
He disregards opposing views. Sticks with what "he thinks" is correct.
I think it's plain to see.
.....
This should be in NPR don't ya think?

 

[RiverCity]

This should be in NPR don't ya think?

Yes...... yes I do..... thanks for asking. :thumbup:

 

[KRJ]

Yes...... yes I do..... thanks for asking. :thumbup:

FREE chalk to the next person that catches me posting in NPR in the next month. Starting..... NOW