Opinions needed - my venture

[TheWizard]

Hi Willie. Since the no-count portion of the game is where the handicap lies, usually both players play to the same number of points.

I can't tell from your post if you are talking about a true no-count league or if you are just talking about a league where different handicaps play to different point totals.

No-count games work like so: If I have to go 30-no-count, I don't receive any points until I run at least 30 balls, at which point I receive all 30 plus any more I run during that inning. If I run 29 and miss, I receive no points for the inning.

All straight pool leagues I've played are the type to which you refer. Different skill levels go to different point totals, but the games are not no-count.

- Steve

Hi Steve, thank you for replying buddy

Sorry about the confusion in my previous post, but the kind of system that I have in mind, is where both players play a regular game of straight pool, but to the designated score that is suited to the player's ranking, just as Kevin has mentioned above, but with all balls being counted in each inning, reguardless of the run.

In what I'm thinking though, is not like a regular league where a lower rank player would normally be spotted an x number of balls by his/her opponent, instead both players would play from scatch (zero), to the designated score, and instead of getting so many points for a win, the league standings go by ball count and innings player, as well as games won/loss basis

This way, I feel that it will really allow for the widening range of players at a wider variety of skill levels, but at the same time, they will be able to improve in their ability level, with time

At the end of the day, I'm just hoping to try and work out a system, that would work best for everyone, and that would also be simple enough to atract more players to join in too

Willie

 

[selftaut]

OK Guys , here is plan B below, this would be throwing out the "no count" system completely and putting a system more in line with Bob Jewets system , although not the same at all , it is based on the general idea.

Please give me your thoughts , better than the no count?

---------------------------------------

Players will race to their designated handicap , scoring will be on the beads or counter and played and scored with BCA 14.1 rules.

Level Handicap
---- --------
PRO.......175
A+ ..... 125
A ....... 115
A- ..... 105
B+ ..... 95
B ....... 85
B- ..... 75
C+ ..... 65
C ....... 55
C- ..... 45
D+ ..... 35
D ....... 25
D- ...... 20

In league match play , if a player wins their match by 10 balls or more of the opponents handicap then this player goes up one level for next week, the losing player goes down one level. If a match is won by less than 10 balls of the opponents handicap then both players remain at that handicap. EXAMPLE: a "B" is playing a "C" , the match is B player has to get 85 balls before C player gets 55 balls, if B player wins 85 to 42 , then the difference between the C players final score of 42 and the designated race to 55 is 13 balls , so the B player won by 13 balls of the opponents handicap and moves up one level and the C player moves down one level.

**STARTING YOUR LEAGUE**:

A minimum of 8 players and maximum of 16 players are required to form a 14and1.com league. Leagues are set up that each player plays all other players twice , chart below shows length of leagues according to number of players and based on once a week league play..

8 players = 14 weeks
9 players = 16 weeks
10 players = 18 weeks
11 players = 20 weeks
12 players = 22 weeks
13 players = 24 weeks
14 players = 26 weeks
15 players = 28 weeks
16 players = 30 weeks

The first week of league play ALL players start as a B level , there are no "bonus points" awarded during the first 3 weeks of league play , only 2 points for a win. This allowes time for the handicaps to naturally adjust , and without allowing any player to surge to far ahead in points. In the 4th week of league play the bonus point system kicks on in addition to the 2 points for a win.

**SCORING**:

Match win points:
----------------
A match win recieves 2 points added to winners overall points, no points are deducted for a loss.

Bonus points: Players can earn bonus points after the first 3 weeks.
------------

*If a player wins by 10 to 14 balls of their opponents handicap, 2 bonus point is awarded to players overall points.
*If a player wins by 15 to 19 balls of their opponents handicap, 3 bonus points are awarded to players overall points.
*If a player wins by 20 or more balls of their opponents handicap, 4 bonus points are awarded to players overall points.
BONUS EXAMPLE: a "B" is playing a "C" , the match is B player has to get 85 balls before C player gets 55 balls, if B player wins 85 to 42 , then the difference between the C players final score and the designated race to 55 is 13 balls , so the B player wins by 13 balls of the opponents handicap and recieves 2 bonus point2.

Each league is also a 14and1.com Nationals qualifier , the top 2 finishers after the last week of play earn a entry into the 14and1.com Nationals.


------------------------------------------------

OK , thats it for now.

Steve , am I getting warmer??? LOL

everyone, any comments appreciated!

thanks
Kev

 

[TheWizard]

That sounds pretty good to me , I gotta give it to you Kev for putting the time and effort into this already, as I know that it can be quite testing sometimes trying to find a way to make everyone happy

Willie

 

[selftaut]

That sounds pretty good to me , I gotta give it to you Kev for putting the time and effort into this already, as I know that it can be quite testing sometimes trying to find a way to make everyone happy

Willie

Thank you Willie, glad to have your vote of confidence. I am determined to make this work. I have been around long enough to know to listen the the guys that been there done that. No we can't please everyone, no handicap system will never make everyone happy , thats impossible , but starting off on the right foot with a good system that fair is crucial.

Kev

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... In league match play , if a player wins their match by 10 balls or more of the opponents handicap then this player goes up one level for next week, the losing player goes down one level. ...

This is a really, really, really bad way to handle the adjustments. Really, really bad. All the players will quickly figure out that they should let the sucker get within 10 balls before making their game ball. The skill will be in selling out a limited number of balls and hanging up isolated balls with nothing else loose and no good way to break.

On the other hand, some players will find that adjustment method very attractive and that will draw them to the league.

 

[selftaut]

This is a really, really, really bad way to handle the adjustments. Really, really bad. All the players will quickly figure out that they should let the sucker get within 10 balls before making their game ball. The skill will be in selling out a limited number of balls and hanging up isolated balls with nothing else loose and no good way to break.

On the other hand, some players will find that adjustment method very attractive and that will draw them to the league.

OK Bob , glad you weighed in here! , I had put the Bonus Point system in place to be a deterant to that (win by10+ to earn bonus), if players DID do what you suggested then they would be cutting their own throat by not getting bonus points , the bonus points are actually the catalyst of the system and without gaining bonus points I don't think a player could win the league, but you could be right , I will put more thought into that situation.

Kind regards
Kev

 

[Williebetmore]

Just some unasked for advice; the "no-count" handicap systems are SEVERELY flawed in my opinion. We briefly experimented with the system - it was a very short time before the poorer players found out that their best strategy was to immediately shoot all potential break shots. The intermediate players would STOMP the advanced players (shutting them out not infrequently as they mastered the principles of eliminating all the break shots from the table). The games took a lot of innings.

I think it is a TERRIBLE system for a league; and it is (to answer Bob Jewett's speculation in the "14.1 league" thread) NOT straight pool. The beginning players learn to shoot all of their easy shots first, eliminate all potential break shots as soon as they can, and settle for a few balls every rack. The advanced players will get LOTS of practice manufacturing break balls. An undesirable situation in my view; since the game is easy to handicap in a more traditional fashion.

By imposing such a handicap system, you are changing the game - it will be hard to convince people that the game is really 14.1 (because it won't be).

 

[selftaut]

Just some unasked for advice; the "no-count" handicap systems are SEVERELY flawed in my opinion. We briefly experimented with the system - it was a very short time before the poorer players found out that their best strategy was to immediately shoot all potential break shots. The intermediate players would STOMP the advanced players (shutting them out not infrequently as they mastered the principles of eliminating all the break shots from the table). The games took a lot of innings.

I think it is a TERRIBLE system for a league; and it is (to answer Bob Jewett's speculation in the "14.1 league" thread) NOT straight pool. The beginning players learn to shoot all of their easy shots first, eliminate all potential break shots as soon as they can, and settle for a few balls every rack. The advanced players will get LOTS of practice manufacturing break balls. An undesirable situation in my view; since the game is easy to handicap in a more traditional fashion.

By imposing such a handicap system, you are changing the game - it will be hard to convince people that the game is really 14.1 (because it won't be).

Williebetmore, thank you for your comments and sharing your experience with your no count system , I have already taken the advice from the previous comments in the thread and scrapped the no count system , in favor of the system I have posted in thread #22 , I also have been recieving emails and phone calls and every little bit of advice has been taken into consideration , I can't thank everyone enough for the advice.

If you have any other thoughts for 14and1.com please feel free to throw them at me.

Kind Regards
Kev

 

[Williebetmore]

I have already taken the advice from the previous comments in the thread and scrapped the no count system , in favor of the system I have posted in thread #22
Kev

Kev,
Excellent idea.

Here is a very long description of our local straight pool league that I sent to Danny Harriman when he was soliciting suggestions for a league. I do like the way that all of our games end at 100 for both players (using negative handicaps for the monster players) - allowing total ball count to be used for breaking ties (players with negative handicaps that do not get out of the hole, get half credit for balls made):


I'm a straight pool fanatic, I'll help however I can.
Our league has been continuously in operation for over 50 years, so at least it works.

Ours is a handicapped league. We have 18 players (9 tables in the poolhall) of varying abilities, playing in a round robin format. Each player will play each other player one time. There is a “position round” halfway through the season, and at the end of the season where you play the person just above or below you in the standings (#1 plays #2, #3 plays #4, etc.) – so you will end up playing 1 or 2 opponents twice during the year.. Standings are based on won-loss records (with total # of balls made as the tie-breaker).

The matches are EVERY Thursday night – players join the league for the WHOLE season (not just a few nights here and there). Once you are in the league, you are in until you quit or die (any poor sports are encouraged to quit or we kill them). Make-up games are allowed at any time, but must be made up before the position rounds in the middle and at the end of the season. One of our pro players missed 6 straight weeks, but made up all of those matches in 2 days right before the end of the season. We bend over backwards to make it attractive for the pro players.

All matches are played to 100. The poorer players have higher handicaps. The feeble players who can’t run balls at all are in the 50-60 handicap range. The best amateur players are in the 0-10 handicap range. The pro’s are in the -70 range (negative 70). If my handicap is 10, and I play a 60 handicap player, you just subtract the 10 from the 60 and I spot him 50 balls. He starts at a score of 50, I start at 0, and we play to 100. If I play a negative handicap player it’s a little different. Our best pro's handicap is -70 (negative 70). I would start at my handicap of 10, the pro would start at -70. Therefore I would have to score 90 balls to get to 100, and she would have to score 170 balls to get to 100. She must score at least 70 balls to “get up to zero”, then another 100 to win. Only her balls after the initial 70 to “get out of the hole” count towards her total balls for tiebreaking purposes.

With this handicap system, you can mix top pro’s with feeble, factory players and STILL have great matches. When these guys need only 40 balls and you need 170, you have to play hard from the very start to beat them – it’s a LOT of fun.

The initially handicaps are set by the league director. I agree with Blackjack that 10 racks of Equal Offense would be a great help in setting them initially – you could do it the first night of league, 2 players per table, alternating racks. Our handicaps are changed over a 20 week average, so you would not be able to use our system the first year. Handicaps are skewed a little towards the better players, set about 75% of the true difference. If the better player plays his best, he will usually win; if he slacks off much he will lose. If you set yourself at about -60 to -80, and the good amateurs around 10, and the hackers at 30 – 50; then you can’t go wrong.

The league director has a Handicap Committee to discuss things with; but it runs so well now, that there is never any need for it. If you win a match, they look at how you did 20 weeks ago and adjust up or down. A new league just needs someone like you to be the “dictator”. Just set the initial handicaps based on the Equal Offense results. Then adjust the handicaps every week or two. After a year you will know exactly where everyone should be (new players can then just be compared to the ones you know). It’s easy, don’t be afraid.

There is also a Rules Committee. If any rules clarifications (or god forbid a dispute) come up, then the decision of the Rules Committee member is FINAL (even if it’s wrong). There has been one dispute in our league in 5 years (and that troublemaker was OUT of the league at the end of the year).

We each pay $20 membership fee at the beginning of the year. We then pay $5 per week to the league. Everyone takes care of their own table time. There is no pressure to collect every week; because nothing is paid out until the final night. As long as you are paid up at the end of the year, then you will be included in the final payouts. We pay out all 18 places – no fortunes to be made in this league. The top half players will get all of their fees back and a little more; the bottom players play HARD the last night to improve their positions. There is NO sandbagging in this league – it would only lower your position.

I’m sure I’ve forgotten something, feel free to call if you have questions. Mark Wilson in Collinsville, IL has a quite different league format and handicap system; he has only 3 tables and shorter games. You might call him if you want another viewpoint. SJM on the AZB forum also has a different straight pool handicapping system (from his NYC straight pool leagues) that is good; but everyone plays to different numbers (a bit confusing), and is based on “high runs” during competition which makes a LOT of record keeping. Our system requires only recording the final score; I highly recommend this to reduce the paperwork.

 

[TheWizard]

Hey WillieB , I gotta hand it to you, the negative handicapp league sounds interesting, The only thing that I would wonder about though, with this handicapp system, and I feel that you would be able to answer this best

How would the handicapped scoring be set for the start of a match between player A (-50) Vs Player B (-20), would your sytem shorten the game length a little by having the difference being marked, e.g. Player starting at -30 Vs Player B starting on 0, playing to 100?... Or would you just get both players to play from their full handicapp scores? (-50 Vs -30)

It sounds like a pretty good and competitive system for all skill levels and it certainly sounds interesting

I'm going to be taking the time though to get as much info on various handicapp systems before considering starting up a straight pool league over here, simply because I wish to use a handicapp system that is straight forward, easy to use, effective and mostl;y a fiar system that will give as much competitive oppertunity to the lesser skilled players as well as the advanced players

Thank you WillieB for posting the info, as like you, I'm also a straight pool fan, I have been from I first started playing it as a kid

Willie

 

[Williebetmore]

Hey WillieB , I gotta hand it to you, the negative handicapp league sounds interesting, The only thing that I would wonder about though, with this handicapp system, and I feel that you would be able to answer this best

How would the handicapped scoring be set for the start of a match between player A (-50) Vs Player B (-20), would your sytem shorten the game length a little by having the difference being marked, e.g. Player starting at -30 Vs Player B starting on 0, playing to 100?... Or would you just get both players to play from their full handicapp scores? (-50 Vs -30)

It sounds like a pretty good and competitive system for all skill levels and it certainly sounds interesting

I'm going to be taking the time though to get as much info on various handicapp systems before considering starting up a straight pool league over here, simply because I wish to use a handicapp system that is straight forward, easy to use, effective and mostl;y a fiar system that will give as much competitive oppertunity to the lesser skilled players as well as the advanced players

P.S. - For local leagues, I love the idea of using Equal Offense to set initial handicaps. I also favor the "dictator system" or the "handicap committee" system for adjusting handicaps. Formula's seem too cumbersome.

Thank you WillieB for posting the info, as like you, I'm also a straight pool fan, I have been from I first started playing it as a kid

Willie

Willie,
Actually we have 3 pro's in the league now (maybe 4 next year if we are lucky). The handicap of our 2 best pro's is now -100. When they play each other they play to 200. When they play the 3rd pro (who is a -30); they play to 200, and the other pro plays to 130. In other words, the negative handicapped players always play to their full handicap (trust me, their matches are NOT longer in duration than the regular players - they make balls like they mean it).

We have found this eminently workable. The pro's have enjoyed all of their matches; and have had some very close ones with even the worst players.

I will also tell you that (as in golf), a successful handicap system MUST FAVOR THE BETTER PLAYER BY AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT (about 3/4 is fair). There HAS to be incentive for players to improve. If they want a match that is a coin flip; they'll just go play poker; or head to Vegas for some roulette. There should be NO INCENTIVE FOR SANDBAGGING.

 

[TheWizard]

Thanks buddy, it makes very good sense in what you're saying and as you say, it gives the weaker players a good incentive to try and improve

Cool I would imagine that if a player is -100, then that would be a reasonably standard length match, as they would mostly be capable of running a 100+? balls and so, anyone would expect that

I definitely am intrigued by this sytem that you got and I'll print out the details of your system and run it by some of the guys at the room, to see if 1, they will play in a straigh pool league and 2, if they would be happy with that handicapp system

If possible, can you PM me all the details on your system, including how you guage a player's h'capp, etc, it's so that I can print it out and run it by the guys in the pool room, when I go there on Monday, at least that way, I'll be able to get an idea of how many players would be up for playing in it, etc

Many thanks again Willie B

Willie

 

[selftaut]

Kev,
Excellent idea.

.

Thank you for sharing Williebetmore! nice system you have there and sounds like great fun as well! lots of good info there , my system is more based on the system itself making adjustments to the players level on a match to match basis, I agree with you that it can't be a complete coin flip , I thought exactly the same thing when putting this together, I feel I am giving a very small edge to the better players and thats why i capped at A+ = 125 being the highest ball count, my thinking was an A+ having to go to 125 and a C player having to go to 55 actually is slightly weighted to the A+ , I just went about the same idea in a different way. Really glad you mentioned that because I was thinking along the same lines.

And thank you for extending your invitation if I need advice , and your continued support for straight pool!

Kev

 

[Williebetmore]

If possible, can you PM me all the details on your system, including how you guage a player's h'capp, etc,
Willie

W,
Most matches last about 2 hours. As players improve, their handicap goes down and they must make more balls - but the matches continue to be about the same length.

We have the "handicap committee" method. As most of the guys have been playing together for 30 years; everyone's ability is well known. New players are estimated, and after one match adjusted according to their level.

Veteran players are adjusted according to a 20 week running total. If you win this week, and lost 20 weeks ago, your handicap would go down. If you lose this week, and won 20 weeks ago, your handicap would go up. If there is no difference in the result of this week compared to 20 weeks ago it stays the same. They used to make fine adjustments in the handicap; but found that increments of 5 balls works just as well; with less hassle.

The pro's are about -100. A fairly good amateur player is about a 5. A banger who has trouble making 3 balls is a 50-70.

If I played you, I could gauge your handicap accurately in 10 minutes. If you do not have that luxury (someone who knows all of the players in the league), I like the idea of using an Equal Offense scale to decide initial handicaps (though I don't know which EO score would equal what handicap; but I could figure it out if pressed).

Good luck.

 

[dmgwalsh]

A few things to consider:

2. From your site: "65% of all membership and weekly fee's will be paid out in prizes at the 14and1.com Nationals , and cover costs of the Nationals. Remaining 35% will go to administration and operating costs."

This would be a big step down from what our (and I would guess most) straight pool leagues offer now. In my league, there are no membership fees. Part of the weekly fee goes to pay a fixed sum for table time and 100% of the rest goes to the prize pool. No administrative fees.

The two leagues I play in cost $20 or $30 (for two matches) and half goes to the house. 25% is given back to the players based on $5 and $7.50 a win in the respective leagues. The othe 25% goes into the prize fund which pays the top three or four places (based on 16 entries).

This idea is good, but can we get the players to cut into their prize money??

What do the other 14.1 league operators think?

 

[selftaut]

The two leagues I play in cost $20 or $30 (for two matches) and half goes to the house. 25% is given back to the players based on $5 and $7.50 a win in the respective leagues. The othe 25% goes into the prize fund which pays the top three or four places (based on 16 entries).

This idea is good, but can we get the players to cut into their prize money??

What do the other 14.1 league operators think?

Hi Dennis , there might be a little confusion on this issue , maybe not. It is hard compare a single local league to what I am planning since they are really totally different. In your local league players contibute to your local league prize fund every match as you stated above, the 14and1.com membership and weekly fee's are sent in to fund the 14and1.com National Championships and operate daily, 65% to Nationals prize fund and costs in running the Nationals, 35% to pay for advertising , administration costs ( web hosting , print products, outsourcing etc..etc..) , if there possibly would be enough left over for me to fill my gas tank then OK fine, if I break even OK fine.

Just an example based on rooms running 1 league per season:: If 30 leagues are created with 10 players in each league = 300 members (60 qualify for nationals), membership fee's might average total $200 per league ($25 adult $15 Junior $15 Senior) X 30 teams = $6000.

Weekly $5 fee's sent in (if everyone played every week) from 300 members = $1,500 per week , the 10 player league chart is 18 weeks in duration so the weekly dues would calculate to $1,500 x 18 = $27,000.

Add $6,000 membership fee's + $5 weekly fee's from 30 leagues = $33,000.

65% of $33,000 = $21,450 for the Nationals (prize fund for 60 qualifying players).
35% of $33,000 = $11,550 for operating and admin costs.

If there is to be a prize fund on the local level then that would be up to the players and league operator to put in a few more dollars a week to fund that , this is up to each league and not regulated by 14and1.com. A note , the APA charges $6 per week sent to them , with a couple hundred thousand players weekly , calculate that quick, do you think they are giving 65% back in prize fund in APA Las Vegas Nationals?

Thanks
Kev

 

[TheWizard]

W,
Most matches last about 2 hours. As players improve, their handicap goes down and they must make more balls - but the matches continue to be about the same length.

We have the "handicap committee" method. As most of the guys have been playing together for 30 years; everyone's ability is well known. New players are estimated, and after one match adjusted according to their level.

Veteran players are adjusted according to a 20 week running total. If you win this week, and lost 20 weeks ago, your handicap would go down. If you lose this week, and won 20 weeks ago, your handicap would go up. If there is no difference in the result of this week compared to 20 weeks ago it stays the same. They used to make fine adjustments in the handicap; but found that increments of 5 balls works just as well; with less hassle.

The pro's are about -100. A fairly good amateur player is about a 5. A banger who has trouble making 3 balls is a 50-70.

If I played you, I could gauge your handicap accurately in 10 minutes. If you do not have that luxury (someone who knows all of the players in the league), I like the idea of using an Equal Offense scale to decide initial handicaps (though I don't know which EO score would equal what handicap; but I could figure it out if pressed).

Good luck.

Thanks again buddy

The Equal Offence method of guageing a player's h'capp has got me thinking that it would be a better and perhaps more accurate method, as the guys that would be most likely to play in a straight pool league are of a wide range of ability levels, including a few pros, and so, in that respect I feel that Equal Offence would be the best way for getting a player's h'capp

Many thanks again buddy and I hope that I can get a league started sometime soon

Willie

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Players will race to their designated handicap , scoring will be on the beads or counter and played and scored with BCA 14.1 rules.

Level Handicap
---- --------
A+ ..... 125
A ....... 115
A- ..... 105
B+ ..... 95
B ....... 85
B- ..... 75
C+ ..... 65
C ....... 55
C- ..... 45
D+ ..... 35
D ....... 25
D- ...... 20

Kev, you're definitely getting warmer . I do think these point totals are not weighted enough towards the weaker players. I am a proponent, like Willie, of giving the better players a better than even chance of winning any given match, but your system above would make it so they would never lose. A C player has no chance getting to 55 before a pro gets to 125, for example. I am assuming your A+ is a pro because you don't have a separate pro designation. If you were to tack on two more handicaps on top, maybe Open at 160 and Pro at 200, everything else begins to fall in line a bit.

You also may want to figure out a way to get the lower players to race to higher numbers when they play each other. The league fee around me is $15 per week; would you want to pay this to play a game where you and your opponent play a race to 25 in straight pool?

As has been mentioned, starting everyone at a B... you'd have to come up with some pretty strong reasoning to convince me why this should be so, in a league where everyone knows each other and knows what the games should be. If you did tack on the two extra levels at the top, it would take a pro 6 weeks every season before he was at the correct handicap.

Also, your bonus point system and your move-up/move-down criteria seem to be based on absolute scores, rather than relative scores. For example, how is a D playing a D going to win a match by 20 balls to get a certain number of bonus points?

Leagues with mostly frozen handicaps (only moving when clearly no longer accurate to a player's skill) seem to work better in my experience. There's less sandbagging and more actual playing.

Kevin, I know we are all giving you a lot of suggestions - please do not take them as criticism. Take what you like, throw out the rest, and make the system your own.

- Steve

 

[selftaut]

Kev, you're definitely getting warmer . I do think these point totals are not weighted enough towards the weaker players. I am a proponent, like Willie, of giving the better players a better than even chance of winning any given match, but your system above would make it so they would never lose. A C player has no chance getting to 55 before a pro gets to 125, for example. I am assuming your A+ is a pro because you don't have a separate pro designation. If you were to tack on two more handicaps on top, maybe Open at 160 and Pro at 200, everything else begins to fall in line a bit.

You also may want to figure out a way to get the lower players to race to higher numbers when they play each other. The league fee around me is $15 per week; would you want to pay this to play a game where you and your opponent play a race to 25 in straight pool?

As has been mentioned, starting everyone at a B... you'd have to come up with some pretty strong reasoning to convince me why this should be so, in a league where everyone knows each other and knows what the games should be. If you did tack on the two extra levels at the top, it would take a pro 6 weeks every season before he was at the correct handicap.

Also, your bonus point system and your move-up/move-down criteria seem to be based on absolute scores, rather than relative scores. For example, how is a D playing a D going to win a match by 20 balls to get a certain number of bonus points?

Leagues with mostly frozen handicaps (only moving when clearly no longer accurate to a player's skill) seem to work better in my experience. There's less sandbagging and more actual playing.

Kevin, I know we are all giving you a lot of suggestions - please do not take them as criticism. Take what you like, throw out the rest, and make the system your own.

- Steve

Hey Steve , thanks again for the thoughts and everyones thoughts have been very helpful , I do not at all take anything as critisizm.

OK your issue #1 , I did think of putting one more level as "Pro" = 175 , but your suggestion of 2 more "Open" and "Pro" might make more sense , now I will definately add the Pro level and possibly the 2 more levels , but adding 2 more might be to many levels to go from opening day as a B ,as you mentioned.

Issue #2 , I understand that maybe in your league with the flat fee for table time might come into play , but 14and1.com does not get involved in table time or wat can be worked out for table time with room owners etc..etc... thats really up to each individual league and league operator , I think players should just split the table time and possibly get a discount from room owners for the league , but that is just my thoughts but I am staying out of that arena , and 2 D players could take an hour to race to 25.

Issue #3 , starting everyone as a B level opening day. I set this almost the same as the 8 ball league system I put together and is very popular here locally , except in that league I use 4 weeks before bonus points kick in. Here is what happened this season , I have the strongest team by far in the 8 ball league , we won the first 4 weeks and went up 4 levels to where our handicap is more relative to our skill levels but got relatively few points for it, the 4 teams we beat went down one level from playing my team and those that lost some matches also playing the other teams are all now closer in handicap to their skill levels , within 4 weeks everyone was just about where they should be in levels. Now during those 4 weeks no bonus points were awarded and we were not very far ahead even though winning all first 4 weeks , we were ahead by only 2 points, some other teams picked up a few wins as well, what has to be taken into consideration is that the strong player won't be a full 8 points ahead since other will have won some matches as well , then in the 5th week the bonus system kicked in , now in the 10th week of this league my team is absolutely shooting its brains out to hang onto second place (tied for 2nd), on paper it looks like it won't work ,all the players in my 8 ball league had the same reservations, but it works and they were all shocked when it did. I can't see any way of setting a players speed before the league starts , I can't and won't leave it up to league operators , that would open the door for serious problems somewhere down the line.

Issue #4 , criteria for players moving up/down in skill levels. I have to have something in place that automatically shifts the players , I will not have the luxury of someone looking over the players , I can not leave it up to league operators , that would be a huge mistake on my part having 30 different views all across the leagues. What I came up with does not leave much room for sandbagging , the bonus points are the catylist to win the league , in order to get the bonuses you will also go up in handicap , if a player wants to win the league then the player has to play at his/her best all the time and catch some bonus points here and there ,and an incentive to improve their game constantly. The D player matchup does not leave much room for bonus points as you say , but does give them an incentive to get to C level. its really all about having a place to start for new players and bringing new players into the game.

I know I can't please everyone , nor agree with everyone , but I have used many suggestions from posts here , emails , and phone calls , a HUGE thanks for everyones input.

UPDATE:
Steve , I went with the 1 more level PRO = 175 , and updated the system on the website , what do you think about a PRO level getting "frozen" if reached , because its a 50 ball drop to an A+ , kind of puts it out of balance a bit. My thoughts are if you get to that level then you are that good and maybe should stay there? Sort of like an APA7 , once there you are locked in and can't go down. Or another option is lower PRO to 150 and it won't be so far out of balance from the other levels?

Kev

 

[dmgwalsh]

14.1 league

Hi Dennis , there might be a little confusion on this issue , maybe not. It is hard compare a single local league to what I am planning since they are really totally different.

I wasn't really confused. I was thinking about how to incorporate many of the existing leagues into your organization. It seems that if you could get the New York leagues, Mr. Jewett's league, the one in Indianapolis, Danny Harriman's and a couple in Chicago, it might help jump start your organization.
With that in mind, it sounds like, if the leagues wanted to adopt your format and join, each player would pay $25 per year and an extra $5 per week to share in the national prizes. I understand that other organizations like the bca and the apa get money out of the fund sent to them, so I imagine pool players would be used to it and not object.

I hope this thing develops.