Opinions regarding a former top pro playing in and dominating a Poolroom‘s weekly handicapped tournament?

C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A top pro pool player back in his prime (+\- 30 years ago) is now frequently playing in a weekly handicapped 9-ball tournament that attracts 30–40 players, with a considerable $ Calcutta pot.

Even though the game handicaps he has to give up are often extreme, as much as 2/10, he seems to win most of the time, often going undefeated. Yes, there are some other skilled players in the field, but no one close to him, even in his advanced years.

As a room owner and tournament director, I have mixed feelings about how I would deal with it if it was happening in our pool room. On one hand, for anyone desiring to get better, an opportunity to play a match against and learn from a player like that should be relished, even if you are mainly just watching.

On the other hand, I’ve heard there are a number of their regular tournament players that are complaining about his participation. I also have a hard time understanding what his motive is to be playing in a tournament like this, unless he really needs the $.

I guess my decision regarding how I would handle this would depend largely on how respectful and helpful he comes across to all the other players he is playing. Just curious as to opinions?
 
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Its highly likely this person is doing it for the money because it's pretty much guaranteed money. This player probably can't compete with the top level players of today and cash at a big event, so they have chosen to "rob" a local event like this. If enough players are complaining, and nothing is done, then you will eventually see a portion of them leave, which doesn't help the venue. If it were me, I would start by limiting this players involvement. Maybe only play once a month. Trying to keep everyone happy is always a tough thing but something Spock said from Star Trek rings true here, "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one." This player could also play "cheat sets" with the people who truly want to get better and learn.
 
ChrisinNC said:
A top pro pool player back in his prime (+\- 30 years ago) is now frequently playing in a weekly handicapped 9-ball tournament that attracts 30–40 players, with a considerable $ Calcutta pot.

Even though the game handicaps he has to give up are often extreme, as much as 2/10, he seems to win most of the time, often going undefeated. Yes, there are some other skilled players in the field, but no one close to him, even in his advanced years.

As a room owner and tournament director, I have mixed feelings about how I would deal with it if it was happening in our pool room. On one hand, for anyone desiring to get better, an opportunity to play a match against and learn from a player like that should be relished, even if you are mainly just watching.

On the other hand, I’ve heard there are a number of their regular tournament players that are complaining about his participation. I also have a hard time understanding what his motive is to be playing in a tournament like this, unless he really needs the $.

I guess my decision regarding how I would handle this would depend largely on how respectful and helpful he comes across to all the other players he is playing. Just curious as to opinions?
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I don't understand why you can't make the handicap such that he has, for example a 60% chance of winning a typical match rather than an 80% or whatever. What is the range of skills in the tournament? What would he spot, say, a 600-level player?
 
Two minor ideas. Neither as good as Mike Page’s. I’d ask the guy privately not to play all the time. I’d want him in the tournament actually but not want to burn out the others. When he plays, at least sometimes, I’d put a bounty on him. Beat him with your handicap, get a bounty. If you won’t step up and play with a handicap and a bounty…. At some point I’d rather lose a nit.
 
Clearly the handicap is off.

I've never learned a single thing while getting my brains beat in.

I learn a lot more by watching from the sidelines or video.

Getting your brains beat in and losing $$$ only helps the one beating you to death. Another scam that a whole lot of dummies got tricked into believing so they could steal your money.

The second you can play better than that person and you win $$$ they quit playing you - if it were true, they'd keep playing you so they could learn.

People in the pool world 🤦‍♂️
 
I lived in Paducah Kentucky and played Skyler Woodward often. This was a problem for the local poolroom and Skyler wasnt even a pro yet. He did ban Skyler from the tournament, which I thought was a mistake. While Skyler was a heavy favorite, I still enjoyed the battles.

JMO

Ken
 
If it's a 700 playing a 400, then that's going to be tough to handicap unless you are willing to accept a race to 1 for the lower rated player.

If you insist on the lower-rated player needing 2 wins, the 8-to-1 ratio would suggest a fair match is 16-2. So no wonder the 700 cleans up if 10-2 is the most extreme the handicap gets.
 
skip100 said:
If it's a 700 playing a 400, then that's going to be tough to handicap unless you are willing to accept a race to 1 for the lower rated player.

If you insist on the lower-rated player needing 2 wins, the 8-to-1 ratio would suggest a fair match is 16-2. So no wonder the 700 cleans up if 10-2 is the most extreme the handicap gets.
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That 400 has more than a one third chance of winning the 10-2 race. And every player over 430 can have a close to even race with that 700. The 700 wouldn't win the tournament most of the time unless the spot between the 700 and the 600 is the real culprit. Some places will say the 600 "is a 7," and the 700 "is a 10." If you do that, you both have long races and the 700 has a 75% chance of winning the match. My guess is they are not doing handicaps based on rating differences and a match chart.
 
I have played small evening tournaments on the west coast from Sacramento to the Canadian border(think the border town was Sumas). That was a long time ago. The common deal was a $5 entry some $3(price of a beer). With 16 or more players the house matched the pot. The added money was promotional. The people that were there strictly for the money and drank ice water with no food or tips were soon asked to play elsewhere.
So a $5 entry with 16 players with the house match would pay in the range of 80 50 30 for 1st 2nd and 3rd. My nut was such that 3rd got me even.
Different things worked in different places. Some worked so well that fields were as large as 32. The Wednesday night 9 ball at the White Spot in Fife was huge and 32 was smaller than usual. The field was so strong that it was more than a year before I won a beer for 7/8 finish. A weekly $5 lesson was what I considered it. The pressure I felt shooting against much stronger players was incredible. Learning to deal with that pressure was Rewarding.
My experience learning at the White Spot leads me to favor open over handicapped competition. That being said I have been welcome in small tournaments that had barred players my speed. Oh did they grumble. However I was a good customer and a good sport. In the Seattle/Tacoma area I had multiple options every night of the week. I wouldn't hammer the soft tournaments. So winning a tournament 7 times in a row didn't mean 7 weeks in a row. 🤷‍♂️
For the house owners, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Consider who is grumbling. Odds are the grumbles aren't the best customers.
 
Interesting situation and comments so far. If he is doing it for the money, maybe offer to make him the "house pro" or something. He can give pool lessons on the premise. Maybe limit his entry to once a month, maybe a random week so people don't just avoid the week he's in.

It's a bad move to drive someone who is good away, just playing stronger players can be a real help to those learning, but I also understand not wanting to donate with zero chance of ever winning. The bounty idea is a good one. We did a bounty hunter tournament and put a bounty on one of the best local players. It ended up one of our good players beat him (not to get into specific fargos and stuff, but a serious "mid level" player). We've had a lot of fun with that and have got some good mileage from it. Like when the player comes into a venue he is often greeted with "ah chit the bounty hunter has arrived" "big game hunter" etc. It's pretty fun and he has fun remembering when he took down the big game.

It's a heck of a situation, because even if he's just robbing folks, he still has to be enjoying playing and the tournament atmosphere. I'd hate to be in a position where I was good enough I just couldn't participate, luckily I don't see that ever happening. ;)
 
mikepage said:
I don't understand why you can't make the handicap such that he has, for example a 60% chance of winning a typical match rather than an 80% or whatever. What is the range of skills in the tournament? What would he spot, say, a 600-level player?
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I don’t know enough about Fargo ratings, but I would guess this player would be in the low to mid 700s, agree that his handicap needs to be made to whereby a significantly lower skilled player can win the match with just one game, rather than having to win two games.
 
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Had a bar tournament here years ago at the Getaway Tavern that limited the first place winners to only playing once a month. It seemed to work okay. Funny though how some of us always came in second week after week!
The Getaway is one of a few taverns still around from the 80s and 90s.
 
jasonlaus said:
Clearly the handicap is off.

I've never learned a single thing while getting my brains beat in.

I learn a lot more by watching from the sidelines or video.

Getting your brains beat in and losing $$$ only helps the one beating you to death. Another scam that a whole lot of dummies got tricked into believing so they could steal your money.

The second you can play better than that person and you win $$$ they quit playing you - if it were true, they'd keep playing you so they could learn.

People in the pool world 🤦‍♂️
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I have always wondered exactly what the lesser player learned while taking a beating from a better player other than how to donate his money to someone with a misspent youth. It seems to me one would learn just as much by watching in person or even on video. I know someone here must have good answer for this as often as we hear that "you have to take your beatings and donate to a better player if you wanna be good". Lets hear what ya got.
 
fastone371 said:
I have always wondered exactly what the lesser player learned while taking a beating from a better player other than how to donate his money to someone with a misspent youth. It seems to me one would learn just as much by watching in person or even on video. I know someone here must have good answer for this as often as we hear that "you have to take your beatings and donate to a better player if you wanna be good". Lets hear what ya got.
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It's all BS, you'll be hard pressed to find a good explanation that actually makes sense
 
you could consider talking to the player in private and explain the situation and see what solution he comes up with.
if he says "screw the weaker players they should practice more "
maybe you dont be as considerate to him regarding the solution
if he says" i need the money "
maybe you try to work it out a different way
tougher handicap?
he can only play 2-3 times a month?
first place pays less than normal so second place gets more
i dont know the answer
just some random thoughts
 
It’s your tournament. I would explain to him he’s to good for local players and I can’t let him play anymore. If he doesn’t understand oh well.. If it continues your players will dwindle and you won’t have a tournament at all. I’ve seen it happen.
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
I would boot the Former Pro, if you do not, your going to loose your regulars. Tell the guy it about protecting your business, nothing personal.
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Likely the best advice, along with offering him the option to make some $ by making himself available for private lessons to your interested customers, $80-$100 per hour.
 
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