Opinions regarding a former top pro playing in and dominating a Poolroom‘s weekly handicapped tournament?

[ShortBusRuss]

This thread has been dead for a month, so it’s curious to me why you would even bring it back up again? I never mentioned the name of the Poolroom, the Player, or the Poolroom owner, out of respect for their privacy, which means 99% of the people here who read and responded to this thread have no clue as to the people involved.

No, I don’t play in the tournament, but a number of our regular players that play in our tournaments play in that tournament and have complained to me about the situation, which is why I was curious how some of those neutral observers on here felt about it.

When a player has won 90%of their matches over numerous tournaments in what is supposed to be a fairly handicapped tournament, anyone with any sense knows that something is not right and needs to be corrected.

This player has not played in this tournament recently, after having played in it regularly for the previous 3+ months. Whether it has anything to do with me starting this thread, I have no idea, but I have a hard time believing that would indeed be the case.

Something needed to be done, and apparently it has been, either by actions from the Poolroom owner to keep from potentially losing some of his tournament regulars, or by the player himself realizing maybe it was not appropriate for him to continue playing in and winning this tournament.

Regarding the tournaments at our Poolroom, which I run, I always listen to feedback from our players as to their opinions regarding our tournament, different players rankings, how the tournament is run, etc. I may not agree with them but I will hear them out and give them my reasons for why I do it the way I do and why players are ranked as they are. I am open to considering alterations including the rankings of all players, if I feel they are warranted for the fairness and integrity of the tournament and all of our players.

It is not easy running tournaments and particularly regarding attempting to fairly and accurately handicap all the players for a handicapped tournament. I have tremendous respect for this room owner who has successfully owned and operated his non-alcoholic poolroom and run weekly tournaments in a small town location for nearly 40 years. I am sure this issue would have been dealt with and corrected by him without any outside interference. If that is/was the case here and he feels I crossed the line by starting this thread in regards to how he runs his tournaments and how he’s dealt with handicapping this particular player, I will discuss and apologize to him when I next have the opportunity.

Meh. I used to travel an hour to find the toughest tournaments I could once or twice a week in Seattle/Tacoma, the tournaments weren't handicapped, and I was dead money. I did that for close to a year until I wasn't dead money.

Your players have no gumption, and that's okay. If they complain, and tournament attendance is falling... Then ban the pro, I guess? Or keep upping their handicap.

You have to decide if you are gonna cater to the bangers, or if you wanna give some of your players the chance to play a former top pro.


Not sure why this even needed a post. The players will either keep playing and grumble once in a while, and you can let things stand as they are.. Or they have no backbone and will not play in any tournament they are dead money in. Which situation you have is only something you can determine, and you know the solution either way.

 

[ShootingArts]

Meh. I used to travel an hour to find the toughest tournaments I could once or twice a week in Seattle/Tacoma, the tournaments weren't handicapped, and I was dead money. I did that for close to a year until I wasn't dead money.

Your players have no gumption, and that's okay. If they complain, and tournament attendance is falling... Then ban the pro, I guess? Or keep upping their handicap.

You have to decide if you are gonna cater to the bangers, or if you wanna give some of your players the chance to play a former top pro.

The complainers are always going to complain. They are trying to massage the rules so that they can win without paying their dues. Ain't going to happen! Unless the complainers quit coming their whining is meaningless. There are ways to sweeten the pot for others such as putting a bounty on the big dog or dogs. A chance at a break and run with so much a ball paid until there is a break and run can work. You take a dollar or two per entry fee for the break and run pot and have a drawing of all contestants' names. Some places you can designate a hitter to try for your break and run which might make the heavy hitter real popular all of a sudden. With the break and run pot rolling over it sometimes tops two thousand dollars. That gets people signing up for the tournaments!

Hu

 

[ShortBusRuss]

The complainers are always going to complain. They are trying to massage the rules so that they can win without paying their dues. Ain't going to happen! Unless the complainers quit coming their whining is meaningless. There are ways to sweeten the pot for others such as putting a bounty on the big dog or dogs. A chance at a break and run with so much a ball paid until there is a break and run can work. You take a dollar or two per entry fee for the break and run pot and have a drawing of all contestants' names. Some places you can designate a hitter to try for your break and run which might make the heavy hitter real popular all of a sudden. With the break and run pot rolling over it sometimes tops two thousand dollars. That gets people signing up for the tournaments!

Hu

Mannnn, that brings back memories. There was a HUGE break and run pot ($3,000+?) up north of Seattle, and I went to watch it one week just before the state gambling commission shut it down.. They did much as you say, and there were collectives that bought larger amount of tickets to get "their guy" in...

I watched John Dougherty (J.D., from "Playing Off The Rail"), one of the best 9 ballers in the state, get drawn first, which meant he got the single shot at the full amount (next draw would get a shot at 50%, and so on..). He made a ball on the break, and had a shot on the lowest ball. He runs down to the 7 ball.. He needs to draw about a foot back to have two simple stop shots on the 8/9.... You could tell he was feeling the heat BAD.....

He takes a smoke break to get his mind right before he shoots the 7.... Comes back in.. Gets down in his stance, strokes a few times smoothly....

And then promptly scoops the ball so bad the CB goes OVER the 7, into the corner pocket. There were about 200 people watching the rack, too.

I have never in my life seen such a devastated look on a pool player, before or since...

 

[ShootingArts]

Mannnn, that brings back memories. There was a HUGE break and run pot ($3,000+?) up north of Seattle, and I went to watch it one week just before the state gambling commission shut it down.. They did much as you say, and there were collectives that bought larger amount of tickets to get "their guy" in...

I watched John Dougherty (J.D., from "Playing Off The Rail"), one of the best 9 ballers in the state, get drawn first, which meant he got the single shot at the full amount (next draw would get a shot at 50%, and so on..). He made a ball on the break, and had a shot on the lowest ball. He runs down to the 7 ball.. He needs to draw about a foot back to have two simple stop shots on the 8/9.... You could tell he was feeling the heat BAD.....

He takes a smoke break to get his mind right before he shoots the 7.... Comes back in.. Gets down in his stance, strokes a few times smoothly....

And then promptly scoops the ball so bad the CB goes OVER the 7, into the corner pocket. There were about 200 people watching the rack, too.

I have never in my life seen such a devastated look on a pool player, before or since...

A nonsmoker myself but I learned to never take a break to get my head together. It didn't work for me. Better to keep dancing to the same beat. I would get there more often than not and almost never finished well after taking a break. I have been shaking like a bird dog passing peach pits and made the shot. Mostly though nerves weren't my big issue. I had gambled thousands on small businesses including forty thousand when I was seventeen. Gambling on a table was almost always small potatoes in comparison.

Hu

 

[garczar]

This thread has been dead for a month, so it’s curious to me why you would even bring it back up again? I never mentioned the name of the Poolroom, the Player, or the Poolroom owner, out of respect for their privacy, which means 99% of the people here who read and responded to this thread have no clue as to the people involved.

No, I don’t play in the tournament, but a number of our regular players that play in our tournaments play in that tournament and have complained to me about the situation, which is why I was curious how some of those neutral observers on here felt about it.

When a player has won 90%of their matches over numerous tournaments in what is supposed to be a fairly handicapped tournament, any good TD with any sense of fairness knows that something is not right and needs to be corrected.

This player has not played in this tournament recently, after having played in it regularly for the previous 3+ months. Whether it has anything to do with me starting this thread, I have no idea, but I have a hard time believing that would indeed be the case.

Something needed to be done, and apparently it has been, either by the actions from the Poolroom owner / TD in order to keep from potentially losing some of his longtime tournament regulars, or by the player himself realizing maybe it was not appropriate for him to continue playing in and winning this tournament as much as he was.

Regarding the tournaments at our Poolroom, which I run, I always listen to feedback from our players as to their opinions regarding our tournament, different players rankings, how the tournament is run, etc. I may not agree with them but I will hear them out and give them my reasons for why I do it the way I do and why players are ranked as they are. I am open to considering alterations including the rankings of all players, if I feel changes are warranted for the fairness and integrity of the tournament and all of our players.

It is not easy running tournaments and particularly attempting to fairly and accurately handicap all the players for a handicapped tournament. I have tremendous respect for this room owner who has successfully owned and operated his non-alcoholic poolroom and run weekly tournaments in a small town location for nearly 40 years. I am sure this issue would have eventually been dealt with and corrected by him without any outside interference. If that is/was the case here and he feels I crossed the line by starting this thread in regards to how he runs his tournaments and how he’s dealt with handicapping this particular player, I will discuss and apologize to him when I next have the opportunity.

A MONTH???? Are you serious????? People constantly dig up shit posted 10+ YEARS ago. Its still current at only one month.

 

[ChrisinNC]

A MONTH???? Are you serious????? People constantly dig up shit posted 10+ YEARS ago. Its still current at only one month.

My point being that this individual obviously didn’t feel it was at all appropriate for me to have started this thread 7 weeks ago out of respect for those involved and feeling it was none of my business to air an opinion on this.

By their revisiting it again after 1 month of dormancy, it’s now got more readers curious. It just seems he could have handled it better without drawing more interest by sending me a private messsge.

 

[gregcantrall]

I watched John Dougherty (J.D

I can't remember what year but probably early to mid 90s. I had moved far enough north that I had not entered the 2 day 9 ball event held at the White Spot twice a year. Traveling through on a Sunday had us stopping to watch. With the top 12 players remaining Sunday morning, I found Race Track Rick (Hodge) and inquired, "who's gonna win?" His response was J.D. is hitting them good. I immediately announced to the gallery awaiting the morning start, "I will bet J.D. against the field. I immediately had 3 $50 bets. Vince Frain (RIP) had handed me 50 in chips at the last Reno Sands event. I was just walking past the blackjack table he sat at. Evidently his idea of a small savings account. Vince put that $50 (loan) up so I only cleared a hundred. Shrug.
Lenny at some point started a results display for the legendary weekly 9 ball event that drew from Everett to Olympia and any road warriors passing through. JD owned that list. No other player even came close to his number of victories.
JD was on the Harry Platis list of one pocket players that had a designated spot for Harry at a thousand a game. JD was required to give the largest spot of the corporation of local players that lived in an apartment together. Let's see it was Mike Danner (RIP) that organized the corporation. There was JD, Mike, Jimmy Rodgers and Todd Marsh. Maybe one more? They showed up at Harry's place as a crew. Harry's M O was have them empty their pockets and that was the bet. They could pick the player with each giving different weight. Harry supported them and they were known as his stable.
Edit: And oh yeah not sure it it was required but they did call him King Harry.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I can't remember what year but probably early to mid 90s. I had moved far enough north that I had not entered the 2 day 9 ball event held at the White Spot twice a year. Traveling through on a Sunday had us stopping to watch. With the top 12 players remaining Sunday morning, I found Race Track Rick (Hodge) and inquired, "who's gonna win?" His response was J.D. is hitting them good. I immediately announced to the gallery awaiting the morning start, "I will bet J.D. against the field. I immediately had 3 $50 bets. Vince Frain (RIP) had handed me 50 in chips at the last Reno Sands event. I was just walking past the blackjack table he sat at. Evidently his idea of a small savings account. Vince put that $50 (loan) up so I only cleared a hundred. Shrug.
Lenny at some point started a results display for the legendary weekly 9 ball event that drew from Everett to Olympia and any road warriors passing through. JD owned that list. No other player even came close to his number of victories.
JD was on the Harry Platis list of one pocket players that had a designated spot for Harry at a thousand a game. JD was required to give the largest spot of the corporation of local players that lived in an apartment together. Let's see it was Mike Danner (RIP) that organized the corporation. There was JD, Mike, Jimmy Rodgers and Todd Marsh. Maybe one more? They showed up at Harry's place as a crew. Harry's M O was have them empty their pockets and that was the bet. They could pick the player with each giving different weight. Harry supported them and they were known as his stable.
Edit: And oh yeah not sure it it was required but they did call him King Harry.

If you are talking about the long butcher papers on the wall that wrapped around City Lights in Tacoma? I thought Mike Zimmerman was the consistent winner.. At least when I was there 95-98.. I actually made the top 2/3 on that list a couple of times before I PCSed to Germany. I beat J.D. once or twice in that Wednesday night tournament, but I don't think I ever got Mike Z.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

My point being that this individual obviously didn’t feel it was at all appropriate for me to have started this thread 7 weeks ago out of respect for those involved and feeling it was none of my business to air an opinion on this.

By their revisiting it again after 1 month of dormancy, it’s now got more readers curious. It just seems he could have handled it better without drawing more interest by sending me a private messsge.

Dude.. WTF? You are posting on a public forum. The EXPECTATION is that everything on here that you post is public forever. People have brought up threads of mine that are 15+ years old. I got no problems discussing my opinions, no matter how far back they go..

 

[JusticeNJ]

This thread has been dead for a month, so it’s curious to me why you would even bring it back up again?

On AZB, praise is short lived but criticism lives forever.

 

[gregcantrall]

If you are talking about the long butcher papers on the wall that wrapped around City Lights in Tacoma? I thought Mike Zimmerman was the consistent winner.. At least when I was there 95-98.. I actually made the top 2/3 on that list a couple of times before I PCSed to Germany. I beat J.D. once or twice in that Wednesday night tournament, but I don't think I ever got Mike Z.

Uh oh, I Goofed it Was The Z that dominated the White Spot list. Oooops! JD and the Z were equal for sure. A little embarrassing to confuse them. CRS.
The White Spot had Lenny hand drawn butcher paper bracket boards that he drew effortlessly. The book like record nailed to the wall next to the tournament board was butcher paper too. (If I remember right ) City Lights came into existence towards the end of my time in that area. I only made a few of their tournaments.
89 was the year I had my best finish in the White Spot big event and had moved north by then and played out of The Mustard Seed II in Bellevue.
While the Wednesday night tournament was a real crap shoot at a bar box race to 3. Winning a match against a name player was an accomplishment. My favorite memory was a dispatch of Don Wirtiman. He's the one that busted Cole, that led to me buying a Cole Joss, that I shoot with to this day. So yeah "the story" wink.
We were on the second chance side and at 2-2. When I broke making a ball the table was jumbled and offered no shot on the 1. I chose to roll out. Leaving a kick bank to wired 9 ball. My intention was to make it a difficult kick but I left a simple natural one instead. My disappointment was obvious and Don's miss interpretation of my reaction had him saying "shoot again " without inspection. I hurried to shoot before he could reconsider. He spent the rest of the evening muttering to any that would listen about getting beat by a "no shooting lucky son of ah..."

 

[gregcantrall]

O

The White Spot had Lenny hand drawn butcher paper bracket boards that he drew effortlessly.

On more than one occasion lesser players that did well would ask for and get the bracket board to take home and frame as a Trophy.

 

[gregcantrall]

The brag factor alone is my reason to disavow handicapped tournaments. Kind of hard to be proud of winning getting 2 games on the wire.
So I can still brag about beating a friend whose rating had him going to 5 when I only needed 3. I felt honor bound to win 3-2. So it was Not a DEI victory.

 

[ChrisinNC]

On AZB, praise is short lived but criticism lives forever.

Yeah, you’d think I would’ve been on here long enough to have learned my lesson, but apparently not. Oh well, life goes on.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Uh oh, I Goofed it Was The Z that dominated the White Spot list. Oooops! JD and the Z were equal for sure. A little embarrassing to confuse them. CRS.
The White Spot had Lenny hand drawn butcher paper bracket boards that he drew effortlessly. The book like record nailed to the wall next to the tournament board was butcher paper too. (If I remember right ) City Lights came into existence towards the end of my time in that area. I only made a few of their tournaments.
89 was the year I had my best finish in the White Spot big event and had moved north by then and played out of The Mustard Seed II in Bellevue.
While the Wednesday night tournament was a real crap shoot at a bar box race to 3. Winning a match against a name player was an accomplishment. My favorite memory was a dispatch of Don Wirtiman. He's the one that busted Cole, that led to me buying a Cole Joss, that I shoot with to this day. So yeah "the story" wink.
We were on the second chance side and at 2-2. When I broke making a ball the table was jumbled and offered no shot on the 1. I chose to roll out. Leaving a kick bank to wired 9 ball. My intention was to make it a difficult kick but I left a simple natural one instead. My disappointment was obvious and Don's miss interpretation of my reaction had him saying "shoot again " without inspection. I hurried to shoot before he could reconsider. He spent the rest of the evening muttering to any that would listen about getting beat by a "no shooting lucky son of ah..."

Let me tell you.. That Wednesday night tournament at City Lights got TOUGH there for a while....

Don McKay was a good player who tended to be in the final 8, but not necessarily win the tournament... But one Wednesday night.. His first opponent broke and ran a three pack out the gate to put him in the loser's bracket.....

And then his 2nd round opponent did the very same thing... 2 and out in the tournament without actually shooting a shot... Poor Don just moped around for a good portion of the night, and I think someone might have bought him a beer out of sympathy, lol. Three packs were not completely unusual in that event.. But that was the only time I saw multiple back to back.

The City Lights butcher paper only had the top three finishers up every Wednesday night... I am still proud of making it on there a few times in the month or two I was practicing heavily, during the toughest time period, re: talent. I had to play a lot of error free matches to be able to even cash in that event. The City Lights and 211 tournaments were where I went to test myself... And I had about 10-12 more little bar table tournaments I'd go to, to earn $200 or so a week extra money. Even those little tournaments had a lot of BCA Master level players you had to get by to cash. In race to 1 events.

Heck.. I was so poor and spent my money so irresponsibly in those days.. I used to go give plasma to earn $20-$30 near the end of the pay period, which I would then use to pump up a little in the tournaments.

 

[gregcantrall]

Don was a fixture at The Ram, called Cheers now

Don McKay was a good player

in University Place. The Round table adjacent the ring game table was where he related stories of the days of old. He could whine with the best of em when he couldn't get a roll. Diaper Don was his pool name. He told the story of Ronnie Allen's one handed spot shot without touching a rail on a 9 footer at Tacoma Whiteys place. The one handed proposition bet that had all the pockets full of the wagered money. One attempt for all the money and of course Ronnie did it.
The butcher paper and Wednesday night sure sounds like The White Spot.....well by then it was the politically correct, Right Spot. Wednesday night belonged to the Right Spot in Fife uh forever. The butcher paper as you described makes me think you have done the same as me when I said J D when it was The Z. Or possibly they just followed the example Lenny set with their tournaments.
Rick Jones was an owner of City Lights looking over the old Tacoma on the sound. He did get my allowance at a dinner place in Olympia that had a 9 foot table. Maybe a pizza place. Shrug that was before City Lights opened.
Found a story to retell. Imagine that

Ramblin Alert and Replay most likely.
My First Big Boy victory came in Aberdeen. The place with the ship yard. Far enough away from the Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia crew that $35 entry for bar table 8 ball race to 4, seemed inviting.
I arrived Saturday morning slightly fuzzy. As Friday night Ring game had taken me to close time. I walked into what looked Like The White Spot 9 ball academy. In a field of 24 there were a dozen Players.
So in the pre tournament interval, I asked Racetrack Rick, "who's the favorite here?" After taking a thought full survey of the dozen killers, Rick's reply was Clyde Boles. He was the eldest and wealthiest and highly skilled. Bar table 8 ball giving advantage to knowledge.
So my opponent in my opener was a local, house player. He could make a shot but no clue on shape. Just taking what he got he had me down 3-0 going to 4. I had missed one ball into a Valley side pocket. As I sat down after racking the 3rd and final time, I looked over and saw the two Olympia Players sweating my match. Clyde and Rick Jones, I had paid Rick $40 for a 9 ball lesson once. So I thought to myself, "If I manage to survive this match, I hope I play one of them next. They must think I am helpless."
Sure enough I survived and plaid Clyde next. I dispatched him 4-0 in like a half hour. The steam was coming from his ears and nostrils. His words at the handshake were to the effect of, "young man we can play some". My smiling reply was with respect and to the point of, "ok as soon as I am out of the tournament." I never went out and he didn't stick around for the finals late Sunday.

 

[gregcantrall]

This thread has been dead for a month

I am ass you meing that 30 days is the use by date and once that's exceeded it is open range for Old Cork Suckers to Ramble in.

The 1960 Ambassador had seats that laid down to make a bed. The ideal vehicle for a road player.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Don was a fixture at The Ram, called Cheers now

in University Place. The Round table adjacent the ring game table was where he related stories of the days of old. He could whine with the best of em when he couldn't get a roll. Diaper Don was his pool name. He told the story of Ronnie Allen's one handed spot shot without touching a rail on a 9 footer at Tacoma Whiteys place. The one handed proposition bet that had all the pockets full of the wagered money. One attempt for all the money and of course Ronnie did it.
The butcher paper and Wednesday night sure sounds like The White Spot.....well by then it was the politically correct, Right Spot. Wednesday night belonged to the Right Spot in Fife uh forever. The butcher paper as you described makes me think you have done the same as me when I said J D when it was The Z. Or possibly they just followed the example Lenny set with their tournaments.
Rick Jones was an owner of City Lights looking over the old Tacoma on the sound. He did get my allowance at a dinner place in Olympia that had a 9 foot table. Maybe a pizza place. Shrug that was before City Lights opened.
Found a story to retell. Imagine that

Nope.. 100% was City Lights. I spent the vast majority of my pool playing time outside the barracks in that pool hall.

Rick probably took his cue from the way they did the tournaments at The White Spot.

Rick Jones REALLY played some jam up barbox 8 ball. He didn't like our One Pocket action by the time I learned how to play. I hit a bank so smooth off the top rail with draw.. The ball hung in my pocket, and I drew the CB 7 feet to freeze in between the top two balls in the stack. Now.. When I say that the banked ball hung.. I mean it hung at lag speed, not because it wobbled in the pocket jaws. Think about how well you have to hit a bank close to the rail to get the drawn CB and the banked ball to effectively travel the same distance. All the forward momentum wore off right as the CB struck the OB, leaving only a ton of spin..

Rick really had no clue about One Pocket back then, and tried to follow through the entire stack to put in my hanging ball. Didn't work. 8 and out. He stiffed me for the $20 on the game, lol... Mostly, I practiced with Clark Smith (who bought City Lights from Rick..), and some younger players in their early-to-mid 20s. Probably noone you know.

I used to practice on City Light's snooker table all the time. It had Simonis 860 on it, and was very good for stroke practice. The slicker than snooker cloth, really punished non center ball hits.

 

[gregcantrall]

He stiffed me for the $20 on the game, lol...

Oh No!
"Say it ain't so Joe!" Comes to mind.
Yes he must have been taking up where the Right Spot left off. Lenny must of dropped the Wednesday night tournament. Pool players never were the best customers. I know Lenny did his tournament out of love for the game. Covid must have finished off The Right Spot. I shed a tear.
I did get to meet Clark in Tri Cities on the other side of the state around 2004. He could play.and was a gentleman.

 

[markjames]

on the subject of anonymity
i asked back in december

-did he think he’d get +300 responses?

now it’s +450


and on posts #47 and #48
i gave my opinion of, just let them play
out the end of a long career as they want