Opinions: What Constitutes A "Straight" Cue and/or Shaft!!!

JAMSGOLF

JAMSGOLF

Golf & Pool-I'm addicted!
Silver Member
It seems the one question that always comes up when people are looking at cues (as well it should) is; "Is the cue straight, together and apart?"

In your opinion, what constitutes being able to say a cue/shaft is "straight"?

I don't think this is a trick question or a stupid question by any means. We all generally roll the butt/shaft/combined cue on a flat surface and visually look to see if there is any variance in the roll. Some of our eyes are better than others...some of our surfaces we roll the cues on are "straighter" than others.

Is a thousandth of an inch variance straight? Technically...NO...but is that "considered" straight by most? What about a 1mm "roll-out"?

Just curious as to what everyone thinks...and what their opinions are...
 
Corn is popping and I'm settling into the recliner to see how this thread shapes out!!! Oughta be interesting.

Maniac
 
Interesting...

I just want to be clear...nothing was meant derogatorily by the question (e.g. no "finger-pointing")...I'm just curious to know people's opinion on this subject...or what they're understanding of what straight is....
 
JAMSGOLF said:
It seems the one question that always comes up when people are looking at cues (as well it should) is; "Is the cue straight, together and apart?"

In your opinion, what constitutes being able to say a cue/shaft is "straight"?

I don't think this is a trick question or a stupid question by any means. We all generally roll the butt/shaft/combined cue on a flat surface and visually look to see if there is any variance in the roll. Some of our eyes are better than others...some of our surfaces we roll the cues on are "straighter" than others.

Is a thousandth of an inch variance straight? Technically...NO...but is that "considered" straight by most? What about a 1mm "roll-out"?

Just curious as to what everyone thinks...and what their opinions are...
Click to expand...


I measure straightness by first finding a good flat table.

Roll the shaft on the table. If the tip stays down the entire time then I call it straight. If there is movement in the stroking area but the tip still stays down. I call it straight but with a taper roll. If the tip doesn't stay down, I call it warped.

The Butt when rolled should never move, it should always be flat because it's thicker and heavier. If it doesn't have movement it's straight. If it does have movement I call it warped or you should double check if the table is flat.

Now when the cue is together there might be new rolls because of how they align at the joint. When rolled if there's a lift at the joint I will mention that. I will also mention any changes I noticed from rolling the shaft and butt separately if there are any.

My favorite and only player as of right now is straight with a slight taper roll. I feel as long as the tip stays down when the shaft is rolled on a flat surface then it's good enough. If you're buying a cue from someone on AZB and unsure of how straight everything is, just ask.

Hope some of my rambling opinion helps lol.
 
Most of the shafts I have seen have a slight taper roll. While I do believe it should be disclosed, I consider it a normal finding. A slight lift in the middle of the shaft is still straight. Anything over the size of about a credit card could be considered not straight. Also, as a previous poster stated, if the the tip moves I wouldn't call that straight either.
 
Just a question, but there are a lot of cue makers in the world & I`m sure not all of them use the same ''taper'' on there shafts as others do.
Maybe it has something or nothing to do with the lifting or taper roll as people call it.
Just throwing this in the mix as well. I`m not a cue maker by any means but just my thoughts on this subject.
Jeff
 
JAMSGOLF said:
It seems the one question that always comes up when people are looking at cues (as well it should) is; "Is the cue straight, together and apart?"

In your opinion, what constitutes being able to say a cue/shaft is "straight"?

I don't think this is a trick question or a stupid question by any means. We all generally roll the butt/shaft/combined cue on a flat surface and visually look to see if there is any variance in the roll. Some of our eyes are better than others...some of our surfaces we roll the cues on are "straighter" than others.

Is a thousandth of an inch variance straight? Technically...NO...but is that "considered" straight by most? What about a 1mm "roll-out"?

Just curious as to what everyone thinks...and what their opinions are...
Click to expand...



James there is a very simple answer to your question either the cue is straight or it isn't there is no such thing as a taper roll.
In reality the only way to check a cue for straightness is a on a lathe with the cue spinning between centers, rolling a cue is not a very accurate method. The finish being high or thicker on one side or area could make the cue roll funny, a wrap that is not in a wrap groove cut to the proper depth could make a cue roll funny, and I could go on.

Like I said above the only way to determine if a cue and it's shaft are straight is spinning between centers on a lathe.

Oh and by the way, two piece cues also in some cases roll great apart and terrible together, in most cases this is nothing more than the facing where the shaft and the butt meet being slightly out of alignment, it only takes the thickness of a hair to cause this to happen.

JIMO
 
Straight as an arrow????

manwon said:
James there is a very simple answer to your question either the cue is straight or it isn't there is no such thing as a taper roll.
Click to expand...

It's Jason by the way (but occasionally I get confused with some guy called "Richard Noggin" :D)...I was waiting for someone to say there was no such thing as "taper roll". That concept never made sense to me. I've never been able to understand HOW a taper could cause a shaft to "wobble" when rolled. I can understand how a tip that has mushroomed can cause a shaft to "wobble", which is why I roll the shaft on my counter with the ferrule on the edge of the counter, so the tip is barely hanging off. I can also understand that a taper might not be "true" the entire length of a shaft, but that won't cause a "wobble" when rolled!

I agree that either a shaft is straight or it is not...but I'm looking for what people are considering "straight"!

(Here's the reason I have the line in my signature....if you need to take a moment to go to the bathroom, grab some popcorn, now's the time to do it, because we won't have an intermission for awhile...this next part might get long-winded!)

This whole question came up because a series of events finally came to a head...

I was talking to one of the APA pool players about some aftermarket LD shafts awhile back. So, I pulled one out while we were talking. Now mind you this individual is (IMO) a horrible pool player...he has absolutely no "basic fundementals" whatsoever...but he thinks he's really good...and he's also one of those "know-it-all" individuals you can't tell him the "proper" or "correct" way to do something as he already knows everything! I chose the word horrible rather than novice because of his attitude...not his ability.

Well, I put the shaft on my glass counter and rolled it for him. It had what some people on here would describe as a "taper roll" about the variance of the width of 2 or 3 pieces of paper. I said "See, it rolls straight", because in my opinion it did... He stated "Well, I'm a machinist and I'm used to dealing with thousandths of an inch measurements...and that shaft's not straight."

Rather than getting into a battle of wits with an "unarmed person", I let it go...mainly because "technically" he was right. It wasn't 100% straight...it was 99.9997% straight. That's where OPINION regarding the definition of "straight" comes into question.

Flashforward to a couple of weeks ago. I sold a cue to an individual here on AZ. Prior to the sale finalizing, I wanted to play a few more racks with the cue as I knew it wouldn't be in my possession much longer. I rolled the butt and shafts separately on my glass counter top on my way up to the tables to verify everything was straight for the sale...everything was. My countertop can barely handle the full length of a cue, but it will take it. For whatever reason that day, I didn't roll the cue together on the countertop. I waited until I got to the pool tables and rolled it on there...BIG MISTAKE apparently. The cue rolled straight on the tables (7' & 8' valley Bar Boxes).

The sale finalizes and I send out the cue...then I get the dreaded email...the cue isn't straight...WHAT?!?!?! He said when the cue was together there was a noticeable "lift" at the joint. I knew I had rolled the cue and I verified it was straight...then I remembered that I had checked it on the pool table rather than the glass countertop when it was together (which by the way was the last time I ever checked a cue for being "straight" that way). Now, he could have blasted me here on AZ for trying to sell a crap cue. Thankfully, he's one of the "good guys" on here and we had some great discussions about it. I suggested that it might only be a refacing issue with the shaft collar (I read that somewhere on AZ before), but offered to take the cue back. He likes the cue and wants to keep it. He sent the cue to the cuemaker and we're waiting to see what they say (it's a new enough cue that there shouldn't have been any issues at all!). Either way, I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure we're both happy about the sale...

NOW, TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT...OH WAIT, IT'S TOO LATE :D

That's why I want to know what people's opinion of "straight" on here is...

The moment the words wobble, rollout, lift, taper roll, or variance are used in decribing the condition of a cue, it affects the "value" that can be placed on a cue - REGARDLESS of the degree of the variance. If I say a shaft has a rollout the width of 2 pieces of paper...the only thing people think is...it's not straight! BUT IN MY MIND AND IN MY OPINION, I would define this as straight!

It's like the teenager who goes to the counter at the gas station and says "Can I get that bag of Doritos, a copy of Newsweek, a thing of Chapstick, that box of condoms, a slushy and three Twinkies?" The only thing the person behind the counter is going to remember is what's "out of place" in that shopping list (okay, maybe the copy of Newsweek for a teenager is also "out of place" - but you get my point :p).

Okay...I'll stop drinking so much coffee before I start posting...Holy Crap, this got real long...real quick!

I still want to hear more people's own opinion or definition of what they consider "straight" - and equally importantly, do they disclose any variance of the cue EVEN IF IT FALLS WITHIN THEIR DEFINITION of being straight...

Jason
 
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Just wanted to pop in and add...If you don't have a lathe, put the cue together and set it on the rail, butt end on the felt...tip pointed outward away from the felt at a 90degree angle and the joint just above the rail contact point and roll it slighty. If ANYTHING is off, even a little...the tip will make make circles from big to small depending on how bad it is...
Cues that roll flat together and apart on the felt, will still show any degree of error using this method :thumbup:
Clint
 
If I am still able to makes balls, the cue is striaght. :thumbup: :p

But, to check Barbox Cue's I follow what MidLifeCrisis said. Alittle warp and I'll still play.
 
Right...but...

MidLifeCrisis said:
Just wanted to pop in and add...If you don't have a lathe, put the cue together and set it on the rail, butt end on the felt...tip pointed outward away from the felt at a 90degree angle and the joint just above the rail contact point and roll it slighty. If ANYTHING is off, even a little...the tip will make make circles from big to small depending on how bad it is...
Cues that roll flat together and apart on the felt, will still show any degree of error using this method :thumbup:
Clint
Click to expand...

Spantiznik said:
If I am still able to makes balls, the cue is striaght. :thumbup: :p

But, to check Barbox Cue's I follow what MidLifeCrisis said. Alittle warp and I'll still play.
Click to expand...

The question isn't "how to check for straightness", but rather, to what degree of a "variance" do YOU consider a cue to be straight?
 
indeed...just a little tip for those that may not know this trick...
As for what do I consider straight?, what I just said in the previous post...:grin-square:
 
If you ask a machinist what straight is, he'll probably look at you funny and tell you it's zero-runout. That's 0.00000000...ad infinitum.
In the strictest sense of the word, it really doesn't apply to butts, or shafts. :)
 
as long as you can hold it out vertical in front of you and it doesn't poke you in the eye - it's straight enough for me to play with ....:)
 
JAMSGOLF said:
I was waiting for someone to say there was no such thing as "taper roll". That concept never made sense to me.
Jason
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree, although the point is a very fine one.

Take your favorite, most straight shaft...roll it on the table to make sure it is straight.

Take a piece of 60-80 grit to one side of it for several strokes, right in the stroke area...only one side of it.

Roll the shaft again. You will see light at one point during the roll across the table that you did not see a few minutes earlier.

Did you warp the shaft? No, you removed some of the surface area unevenly. The shaft is still straight on center.

JMHO,
Joe
 
What'd he say?

Tramp Steamer said:
That's 0.00000000...ad infinitum.
Click to expand...

Holy Smokes...Don't trust this guy...he uses them thar fancy words! :D

Just kidding...reps to you for using a latin phrase... ;)

This is a great point though! I love mathematics, because there's no subjectivity to it...an equation is either right or it's wrong. Period. No exceptions. It is strictly objective.

There are a lot of issues relating to cues that are objective and then others are subjective. Anything objective can and should have the ability to have some kind of a "measurement" attached to it.

Length of a Cue = Objective = It can be measured.
"Hit" of a Cue = Subjective = Opinions and experience varies individually.
Tip Hardness = Objective = Scales have been created to categorize the density.
Spin Created By Tip = Subjective = Technically could be measured, but there are too many variables (e.g. Type of Chalk, Type of Felt, etc.)
"Straightness" of a Cue = SUBJECTIVE = This CAN be measured.

and the list goes on....

Why can't we create a "scale" for the "straightness" of a shaft/cue?
Is it because none of us are smart enough (I know I'm NOT...but I know there's plenty on here who are!)?
Is it because that would be too much of a pain in the a$$ to create and/or utilize?
Is it because buyers/sellers/cuemakers would be held accountable to a certain acceptable/unacceptable standard?

By the way, none of this is meant to sound angry or anything along those lines...just something I've been thinking about and thought it'd be a good discussion...

Jason
 
If a shaft or cue has taper roll than the cue maker took little time, probably just trying to cash in.
Very little pride in his craftsmanship. Should be doing broomsticks for wallmart instead.
Customer shouldn’t have to tell a cue maker to fix it, it should be perfect from the start.
 
JAMSGOLF said:
The question isn't "how to check for straightness", but rather, to what degree of a "variance" do YOU consider a cue to be straight?
Click to expand...

I need to start carrying my protractor and figuring out what degree of variance I am willing to play with and what I would consider being straight.

Calculated in the circumference of the circle that cue tip makes when rolled, or the average distance the tip is from the table when it is being moved on the table ?

But, as for my original, It is a comment that my small mind understands. And in a way it does answer the question that was asked with out getting into a full mathematical equation to explain it.

Thanks for pointing out my intellect and making it seem like I have an IQ less then the average Canadian :grinning-moose:

*cheers*
 
Spantiznik said:
I need to start carrying my protractor and figuring out what degree of variance I am willing to play with and what I would consider being straight.

Calculated in the circumference of the circle that cue tip makes when rolled, or the average distance the tip is from the table when it is being moved on the table ?

But, as for my original, It is a comment that my small mind understands. And in a way it does answer the question that was asked with out getting into a full mathematical equation to explain it.

Thanks for pointing out my intellect and making it seem like I have an IQ less then the average Canadian :grinning-moose:

*cheers*
Click to expand...

Randy,

I hope you weren't seriously offended by my comment...there was no malicious intent directed from me toward you at all. I sincerely apologize if you took it wrong - or more to the point - if I worded things wrong.

The reason I wrote what I did is because if you notice, no one is willing to commit to what they feel defines "straight" (not even me to this point) within some tangible parameters. Everything has been an arbitrary and ambiguous consideration...I find that interesting.

Jason

p.s. I was laughing when I read your above response, until I thought I might have offended you...
 
JAMSGOLF said:
Jason

p.s. I was laughing when I read your above response, until I thought I might have offended you...
Click to expand...

JAMSGOLF said:
Originally Posted by JAMSGOLF
The question isn't "how to check for straightness", but rather, to what degree of a "variance" do YOU consider a cue to be straight?
Click to expand...

I did take just alitte offence to your response.

To get the Variance of degree you consider a cue to be straight, is to first "Check for straightness" and this can be done in a many ways.

JAMSGOLF said:
In your opinion, what constitutes being able to say a cue/shaft is "straight"?
Click to expand...

And just with this comment from your first post, I take it my first comment was not my opinion that you were looking for. If you responded back, with pointing out and highlighting words.

I try not to offend people, I try to make my points or responses alittle fun if I can, because that is who I am.

From the Canadian :grinning-moose:
 
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