Original Moori Tips

Look at the direction chalk has taken.If we did the same test with chalk,nobody
could tell as well.
People say the same with joints also.I think when you can visually see
what your using,your heightened senses zone in on feel and feedback.

Now I know some may think your heightened senses should kick in
if you can't see it.This generally is true if the condition of the sight
loss was permanent.

To me it comes down to performance. If in a blind test you can tell what the tip is, what the chalk is, what the joint is and yet you can still perform the same with all test pieces OR the ones that perform the worst are the ones you thought based on the brand names should perform the best then what are you left with?

In pool we have a lot and by that I mean A HUGE AMOUNT, of cliams with very little actual substance. It's so very easy to make claims in pool because who is going to disprove them? Who is going to do the tests and spend the money and time to disprove people's claims.

Even in the face of the president of Tween Fiber coming out and saying there is ZERO difference in pre and post flag masters you still have people claiming that there is AND charging a premium when they find a box of pre-flag.

The imagination of people in the world of billiards to simply invent justifications for things knows no bounds.

John McChesney did a test with a lot of cues and the best players of the time where he taped up the cues and no one knew the brand or construction style.

Almost all the players got it wrong and could not even identify their own playing cue. What does that tell you?
 
I'm not a tip enthusiast and do not know this answer.... If Moori tips are "the best tip ever made and worth so much $" Why isn't it made anymore?
After the main man passed away,I
always wondered why the same formula wasn't used,unless they
knew people would still buy them as long as there name was still on it.
 
After the main man passed away,I
always wondered why the same formula wasn't used,unless they
knew people would still buy them as long as there name was still on it.

Is Mr. Moori gone? Even if he is I don't think that this is a question of a secret formula. But also I agree, why stop making a popular brand?

But this is the thing, people claim that the current Mooris are not the same as the old ones in the tins. They believe that there was some secret sauce that is no longer used. I think that there are very very very few people on the planet earth who know EXACTLY how mooris are made and the rest of the people just speculate from rumor to rumor.

I can tell you two stories.

One is about a NORMAL tip that comes in boxes. It was repacked in a pretty tin and sells for five times the original retail price and gets a TON of praise for how much better these tips are than the ones in boxes.

The other story is about a cue maker who has his own forest. The rumor is that he grows his own trees and that is why his cues are so good.

I started the second one as a joke to make fun of a person who claimed to know everything about a cue maker I am friends with when it was clear that this person knew very little. Two weeks later I had a completely different person tell me that these cues were great because the cue maker has his own forest.

Don't get me wrong though, Mooris were then and probably are now truly great tips. I mean really they were great. But in the interim I firmly believe that there are other tip brands that put out tips that are just as good and even better if you believe their marketing.
 
To me it comes down to performance. If in a blind test you can tell what the tip is, what the chalk is, what the joint is and yet you can still perform the same with all test pieces OR the ones that perform the worst are the ones you thought based on the brand names should perform the best then what are you left with?

In pool we have a lot and by that I mean A HUGE AMOUNT, of cliams with very little actual substance. It's so very easy to make claims in pool because who is going to disprove them? Who is going to do the tests and spend the money and time to disprove people's claims.

Even in the face of the president of Tween Fiber coming out and saying there is ZERO difference in pre and post flag masters you still have people claiming that there is AND charging a premium when they find a box of pre-flag.

The imagination of people in the world of billiards to simply invent justifications for things knows no bounds.

John McChesney did a test with a lot of cues and the best players of the time where he taped up the cues and no one knew the brand or construction style.

Almost all the players got it wrong and could not even identify their own playing cue. What does that tell you?

I understand what your saying but where players would notice the big difference is actually running a rack of balls with them,which couldn't be done with a blindfold.
Its like sitting in the passenger seat of a car blindfolded and the driver going 20km
in a straight line.I think most wouldn't know if there in a BMW or a Dodge.

Most players can tell the differences through performance,so blindfold tests show little validity in the claim on people not knowing imo.
 
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Is Mr. Moori gone? Even if he is I don't think that this is a question of a secret formula. But also I agree, why stop making a popular brand?

But this is the thing, people claim that the current Mooris are not the same as the old ones in the tins. They believe that there was some secret sauce that is no longer used. I think that there are very very very few people on the planet earth who know EXACTLY how mooris are made and the rest of the people just speculate from rumor to rumor.

I can tell you two stories.

One is about a NORMAL tip that comes in boxes. It was repacked in a pretty tin and sells for five times the original retail price and gets a TON of praise for how much better these tips are than the ones in boxes.

The other story is about a cue maker who has his own forest. The rumor is that he grows his own trees and that is why his cues are so good.

I started the second one as a joke to make fun of a person who claimed to know everything about a cue maker I am friends with when it was clear that this person knew very little. Two weeks later I had a completely different person tell me that these cues were great because the cue maker has his own forest.

Don't get me wrong though, Mooris were then and probably are now truly great tips. I mean really they were great. But in the interim I firmly believe that there are other tip brands that put out tips that are just as good and even better if you believe their marketing.

I heard the main man passed away years ago.I agree with you that the selection of tips are so broad that it might not be that Morri's are that bad
but the rest of the competition has got that much better.
 
Actually no I didn't. I said that Kamui would have to prove it's worth it. And if you check the thread I put up with my review I said pretty much that I don't think that they have proved all their claims.

Moori on the other hand put out a tip for $7 and never made any claims about it. The market went into a frenzy over it and the legend continues even 20 years and dozens of brands of layered tips later.

John. Here's the link to your review. See the part where you listed the reasons you thought the Kamui chalk was worth "100X" the cost of Masters.

When I read your review I thought you said it was worth the cost and you listed your reasons.

Guess I was wrong...


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=245647&highlight=Kamui+chalk+review

Here is a quote from your review that I was referring to:
So, finally I got my own cube. In fact on the same day I got TWO of them from two different places. Thanks guys!

I sort of feel like I should do a IPAD unboxing photo report on this stuff. But I won't because you all know what it looks like by now.

Getting into the vacuum sealed packaging required some effort. It LOOKS like there is a ziplock seal and if you tear along the dotted line that you will be able to open the zipped pouch. BUT I tore the package along the line and tried to open it - no chance, so I cut a little more with scissors above what looks like the ziplock. No chance. So I cut BELOW the ziploc and finally was able to get it open. So if the bag is supposed to be resealable I have to say that this one is not and someone should look into packaging that's a little easier to open.

That said getting a SINGLE piece of chalk in a vaccuum sealed package was a strange experience for someone used to taking chalk for granted.

So I just had to run to the pool room to try it out. "It's research honey." "When will you get home she asked", "when I miscue" was my reply and I don't think she was amused. (she knows the whole Kamui chalk saga)

At the pool room I wiped all the old chalk off my tip. My tip is very bald, not scuffed at all. It's a Black Diamond layered tip that was given to me a year ago.

I applied an even coat of Kamui chalk and decided not to chalk again until I miscued. I started out by shooting all sorts of spin shots while working through a couple racks. I was about four racks in before I miscued. I looked at the tip and decided to ignore and and kept shooting. About two racks later I miscued on a draw shot and then tried a few more and also miscued. So I chalked again with a lighter layer. Shot a few more racks and then the house pro asked me if I wanted to play a set.

I moved to his table and didn't chalk again. There were five cubes of Brunswick chalk on the table. I played the entire set without chalking and lost 7:5. Several times I found myself reaching for one of the chalks on the table and had to stop myself. All the shooting felt completely normal and comfortable. I did not miscue once during the set.

I did feel better by not having to reach for the chalk on every shot. This chalk did not leave any residue on the cloth, none on the cue ball and none on my hands. When I got home my hands were actually clean, or at least not visibly stained with chalk.

So to the question of whether it eliminates the need to chalk frequently.....YES IT DOES. With this stuff I feel that once per game would be more than enough. I played 14 games and never miscued once.

Does it increase the friction? I don't know yet. I really went to the edge of the ball and tried to see how far out I can get but I didn't spend any time marking the balls to see exactly WHERE I hit the cue ball. I will test that later on my table with my CueSight training ball that has precise markings for this purpose. I FEEL that it does allow for more spin but that could just be a placebo effect based on the built up expectation.

Is it worth it?

I think so and I don't say this lightly.

Disclaimer.

I don't have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with Kamui. I don't sell their stuff, Sterling doesn't sell their stuff. I think that some of their stuff like the $1800 cue case they sell is not worth the money being asked. I have told the owner of Kamui the same thing. However I LIKE the owner of Kamui a lot because he is passionate about his product AND he knows his product intimately. I know from speaking to him three years ago that he was then embarking on this quest to improve chalk and I respect anyone who tries to change things for the better.

So, why do I feel that this chalk is worth 100x the price of the market leader? Masters is about .25cts a cube.


1. It sticks to the tip even when the tip is not scuffed.
2. It goes on smoothly and doesn't take much to apply an even coat.
3. It lasts for many many shots before more needs to be applied.
4. It is not messy.
5. It is consistent and dependable.
6. It is much grippier. (based on my FEELING)
7. Using it allows me to establish a better rhythm.
8. Using it gives me confidence.

So for me it's worth it to own this and use it when I gamble and play tournaments. I really do feel that it is a big improvement over regular chalk. Would I like to see it be cheaper? Yes absolutely. While $25 isn't the world and chalk IS important I think that it's truly a premium price and the "elitism" that accompanies the advertising for it is a HUGE turnoff for me. I feel that Kamui should publish some actual data to back up the performance claims instead of making it a class thing, as in 'you must be a good player to appreciate our chalk'.

I think that this price leaves the door wide open for the competition to come in with cheaper versions and I hope that some folks start to research it because the stuff really does work and should be available to more people. The price is a deterrent so Kamui should be trying to get the price down so that their reach can be much greater.

Bottom line: The chalk works great. End quote.
 
I understand what your saying but where players would notice the big difference is actually running a rack of balls with them,which couldn't be done with a blindfold.
Its like sitting in the passenger seat of a car blindfolded and the driver going 20km
in a straight line.I think most wouldn't know if there in a BMW or a Dodge.

Most players can tell the differences through performance,so blindfold tests show little validity in the claim on people not knowing imo.

Not blindfold. Blind, meaning that they do not know the brands of cues, tips, chalk etc... that they are playing with.
 
John. Here's the link to your review. See the part where you listed the reasons you thought the Kamui chalk was worth "100X" the cost of Masters.

When I read your review I thought you said it was worth the cost and you listed your reasons.

Guess I was wrong...


http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=245647&highlight=Kamui+chalk+review

Here is a quote from your review that I was referring to:
So, finally I got my own cube. In fact on the same day I got TWO of them from two different places. Thanks guys!

I sort of feel like I should do a IPAD unboxing photo report on this stuff. But I won't because you all know what it looks like by now.

Getting into the vacuum sealed packaging required some effort. It LOOKS like there is a ziplock seal and if you tear along the dotted line that you will be able to open the zipped pouch. BUT I tore the package along the line and tried to open it - no chance, so I cut a little more with scissors above what looks like the ziplock. No chance. So I cut BELOW the ziploc and finally was able to get it open. So if the bag is supposed to be resealable I have to say that this one is not and someone should look into packaging that's a little easier to open.

That said getting a SINGLE piece of chalk in a vaccuum sealed package was a strange experience for someone used to taking chalk for granted.

So I just had to run to the pool room to try it out. "It's research honey." "When will you get home she asked", "when I miscue" was my reply and I don't think she was amused. (she knows the whole Kamui chalk saga)

At the pool room I wiped all the old chalk off my tip. My tip is very bald, not scuffed at all. It's a Black Diamond layered tip that was given to me a year ago.

I applied an even coat of Kamui chalk and decided not to chalk again until I miscued. I started out by shooting all sorts of spin shots while working through a couple racks. I was about four racks in before I miscued. I looked at the tip and decided to ignore and and kept shooting. About two racks later I miscued on a draw shot and then tried a few more and also miscued. So I chalked again with a lighter layer. Shot a few more racks and then the house pro asked me if I wanted to play a set.

I moved to his table and didn't chalk again. There were five cubes of Brunswick chalk on the table. I played the entire set without chalking and lost 7:5. Several times I found myself reaching for one of the chalks on the table and had to stop myself. All the shooting felt completely normal and comfortable. I did not miscue once during the set.

I did feel better by not having to reach for the chalk on every shot. This chalk did not leave any residue on the cloth, none on the cue ball and none on my hands. When I got home my hands were actually clean, or at least not visibly stained with chalk.

So to the question of whether it eliminates the need to chalk frequently.....YES IT DOES. With this stuff I feel that once per game would be more than enough. I played 14 games and never miscued once.

Does it increase the friction? I don't know yet. I really went to the edge of the ball and tried to see how far out I can get but I didn't spend any time marking the balls to see exactly WHERE I hit the cue ball. I will test that later on my table with my CueSight training ball that has precise markings for this purpose. I FEEL that it does allow for more spin but that could just be a placebo effect based on the built up expectation.

Is it worth it?

I think so and I don't say this lightly.

Disclaimer.

I don't have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with Kamui. I don't sell their stuff, Sterling doesn't sell their stuff. I think that some of their stuff like the $1800 cue case they sell is not worth the money being asked. I have told the owner of Kamui the same thing. However I LIKE the owner of Kamui a lot because he is passionate about his product AND he knows his product intimately. I know from speaking to him three years ago that he was then embarking on this quest to improve chalk and I respect anyone who tries to change things for the better.

So, why do I feel that this chalk is worth 100x the price of the market leader? Masters is about .25cts a cube.


1. It sticks to the tip even when the tip is not scuffed.
2. It goes on smoothly and doesn't take much to apply an even coat.
3. It lasts for many many shots before more needs to be applied.
4. It is not messy.
5. It is consistent and dependable.
6. It is much grippier. (based on my FEELING)
7. Using it allows me to establish a better rhythm.
8. Using it gives me confidence.

So for me it's worth it to own this and use it when I gamble and play tournaments. I really do feel that it is a big improvement over regular chalk. Would I like to see it be cheaper? Yes absolutely. While $25 isn't the world and chalk IS important I think that it's truly a premium price and the "elitism" that accompanies the advertising for it is a HUGE turnoff for me. I feel that Kamui should publish some actual data to back up the performance claims instead of making it a class thing, as in 'you must be a good player to appreciate our chalk'.

I think that this price leaves the door wide open for the competition to come in with cheaper versions and I hope that some folks start to research it because the stuff really does work and should be available to more people. The price is a deterrent so Kamui should be trying to get the price down so that their reach can be much greater.

Bottom line: The chalk works great. End quote.

Fixed it for you. And if you continue to read the rest of the thread you can see where I take them to task over their claims and do two video comparisons.

Point being that I didn't recommend the chalk LIGHTLY and based on hype, nor did I criticize JUST because of the price as others did and continue to do.

If anyone wants to do a performance test to PROVE that Moori tips are worth anywhere from 3-10x the price of other tips I would love to see it. Moori tips are still made and the price is $8 a tip if you know where to buy them. Back in the day they were also $8 a tip. I paid $10 a tip in Japan from a dealer and bought three tins for a friend back in 98.

I sold tips under the Instroke brand. They were also known as YTT and Killer tips. Many people said that there was no difference between them and Mooris. When I was into tips I did all kinds of tests on them and came to the conclusion that after a while they all played the same with about the same hardness.

Anyway, you can see that I gave VERY DETAILED reasons for saying that the $25 (at the time) price for the Kamui chalk was acceptable to me BUT added the caveats that I felt that the marketing is shitty and the claims are not backed up.

Furthermore I subsequently criticized them for the price hikes and continued elitist advertising.
 
Not blindfold. Blind, meaning that they do not know the brands of cues, tips, chalk etc... that they are playing with.
Oh okay,well in that case I would love to try that type of
test if I can play all different shots.
I could see the top pros not knowing certain tips or chalk but not
to know there own cue is pretty odd.
 
I still have a few tins left of the soft medium and hard left. The soft is the best tip ever made for my game.

The hardest thing, IMO, about threads concerning everything from tips, to aiming systems, to cues, to various chalk choices, and everything else, is trying to figure whether the person posting knows enough and plays well enough to have an opinion that carries weight. To me, this opinion carries weight with me on this subject. No offense to anyone else :smile:
 
The hardest thing, IMO, about threads concerning everything from tips, to aiming systems, to cues, to various chalk choices, and everything else, is trying to figure whether the person posting knows enough and plays well enough to have an opinion that carries weight. To me, this opinion carries weight with me on this subject. No offense to anyone else :smile:

No doubt. Mike was a world class player and he is a world class cue maker. Notice though that he says best ever for his game. Bustamante on a TAR podcast the night before he played Johnny Archer said that he prefers pressed Elkmaster tips. When asked if they were soaked in milk Busty seemed like he wasn't sure.

But I agree that the more input you get from higher level players the better.

My opinion is based on measuring with a Durometer and hitting the tips with a 6oz hammer to simulate play and then measuring the hardness again with the mushrooming. Then trimming and burnishing and more measuring, all this entered into a spreadsheet to come up with averages.

Frankly when it was all said and done I just wanted to be OUT of the tip business even though we were doing ok with it. At the end of the day I have formed a theory that people like the idea of various hardness ratings so that they can feel comfortable with the tip from the first ball they hit. The tip will get harder as play goes on but they are essentially playing into the tip and not noticing the hardening since they liked it from the first shot.

Moori really did usher in a new era with both the layered tips AND the concept of hardness levels. They like Predator created a whole new market segment. And in my opinion Moori's contribution was just a notch below Mingnaud's in the area of leather tips. For 150 years prior to Moori tips coming on the market we all had basically the same tips more or less.

I'd love to see a poll of the top players and ask them what their favorite tip is and why? After all the tip and chalk are really the only things contacting the ball. I liken it to a racecar driver. The more skill you have the more you are able to feel what your equipment is doing. The mechanic might tinker and change this or that but the driver is the one who can tell you what it feels like at 200mph. My point being that a driver might not have any clue or even care about what what shocks are on the car but he can tell you whether the ones on the car perform well for him or not.

I, for one, am NOT qualified to speak about how a tip feels in world class play. I can only tell you what a tip does after x-number of hits and what the measured rating is. If someone feels that a Moori is worth $50-$100 because Mike Gulyassy likes it then I'd say buy one or ten. For me and my game I will just buy the ones I like which cost far less.
 
The tip thing has gotten out of control IMO. We're already having to pay $45-50 for a Kamui or any other premium tip to be installed. Cue repair guys are charging almost $30 just to put a tip on my cue. Doesn't that seem ridiculous? I'm all against people making some $,just don't bang us while doing it.. :)
 
There are no moving parts in a cue, and avoid no rapid swings in temperature. I played with 10-20 year old house cues with original tips.

That was my next question. I can't see how a leather tip and glue sitting for many years is a good thing.
 
I still have a few tins left of the soft medium and hard left. The soft is the best tip ever made for my game.

Also one of my favorites...though I hated that the mushroom needed to be removed twice. Probably not a concern for you though!
 
I've noticed some for sale lately for $50-80. I just can't see what would justify me to pay that for one tip. What makes these tips worth so much?

Maybe I should sell mine since they're not doing anything but sitting there. And I didn't love them to begin with.

Freddie <~~~ Can I hear $75???
 
The tip thing has gotten out of control IMO. We're already having to pay $45-50 for a Kamui or any other premium tip to be installed. Cue repair guys are charging almost $30 just to put a tip on my cue. Doesn't that seem ridiculous? I'm all against people making some $,just don't bang us while doing it.. :)


I'm all for and not against... :). Definitely wrote that wrong..
 
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The tip thing has gotten out of control IMO. We're already having to pay $45-50 for a Kamui or any other premium tip to be installed. Cue repair guys are charging almost $30 just to put a tip on my cue. Doesn't that seem ridiculous? I'm all against people making some $,just don't bang us while doing it.. :)

This is why I buy my tips online...

I get Kamui Blacks for about 18 bucks each and my install guy Dave Bollman charges me 10 bucks to install them, which he does flawlessly by the way. $28 for a Kamui Black installed isn't too shabby.

I honestly can't see buying an old Moori for 60 bucks when there are so many new and just as good or better choices out there for 1/3 the price.

It's the same to me as the pre-flag Master chalk hype. Do people really believe they changed the formula after 9/11 happened? Really??
 
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