Ortmann-Hall of Fame

[worriedbeef]

Oliver Ortmann is very deserving of recognition for his many titles. However, if I were a voting member of the BCA Hall of Fame, I could think of at least a dozen or more players who I would deem as more worthy for induction. This is not to discount Oliver at all. If he continues his winning ways in OPEN events and not RESTRICTED events, I would definitely agree with many who believe he should be inducted into the Billiard Congress of America's Hall of Fame.

thsi just about sums it up for me. oliver is one of my favourite players, but at the end of the day there's a good few ahead of him in the queue at the moment. imo, although in some ways his tournament achievements aren't quite as good as souquet's for example, he was, and correct me if i'm wrong i'm only young, the european jose parica in many ways! the leader of the european invasion. which did a lot for the game and was a significant part of pool's history. the other german players, indeed european ones, don't have this element to their credentials.

 

[JAM]

Jennie,
I did not find any of Markus' comments offensive, but they are extremely different from your views.

What may be offensive to me might not be offensive to you. For example, I find it tremendously offensive as a female to see avatars with surgically-implanted breasts on women, whose fake breasts look more like sunny-side-up fried eggs than actual breasts, but I see these type of avatars on this forum quite often. This may not be offensive to some, but it seems to demean women, IMHO, especially women who have REAL BREASTS, to have to look at these odd-shaped deformities representing womenhood.

There is a big difference between "American pool" the way that pool is promoted, accepted, and viewed in Europe and Asia - especially in the Philippines and Taiwan. If Keith were to go to Taipei, chances are he would need the assistance of armed guards crossing the street because he would be mobbed by fans. Call me crazy, but if I were Keith I'd look into taking a trip to find out if I'm right about that.

The HOF is simply that... a Hall that is to be for the very best players, and for people that have helped to promote the sport on and off the table. Not everybody can get in, but from what I can see - we're leaving a hell of a lot of the best out. That's not doing us any favors right now.

What I find incredulous is that this BCA, the Billiard Congress of AMERICA, does not do more than they do in the way of supporting professional pool. Who gets into their Hall of Fame is certainly controlled by voters the BCA selects. American legends like Ronnie Allen and Allen Hopkins may never get recognized, no matter what people who share my opinion may believe.

A poll was done several years ago right here on the Main Page of AzBilliards for induction into the BCA Hall of Fame, and Earl Strickland won the popular vote by a landslide. Yet, he did not make it into the BCA Hall of Fame at that time. The voters of the BCA Hall of Fame Committee voted in who they desired at that time.

Further, the past 2 years has only seen one Hall of Fame inductee, as opposed to two in previous years. It would seem that the criteria may have changed for induction into the Hall of Fame. I'm not sure.

It is difficult at this juncture to post on this thread because when I use words like "great player" referring to Oliver, some believe that it was a poor choice of words. When people dissect one's words, the thread then disintegrates. Why would one complimentary descriptive adjective have to be targeted as if it was not a compliment?

Again, I am not discounting Oliver Ortmann's accomplishments in pool. I just have an opinion which I shared on this thread. If there are some who do not agree with my opinion, that is fine by me. Speaking as an American, I would like to see the American legends get their propers into the Billiard Congress of America. This is my opinion, one which I do not expect to get 100-percent agreement with on a forum which has an international readership.

JAM

 

[Marvel]

Your opinion is duly noted. I just don't agree with your opinion in total.

I would elaborate as to why, but I fear it would open up a debate which could turn ugly.

Speaking as an American pool enthusiast, some of your views I find offensive, but that's okay. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect yours for what it is, your opinion.

Thank you for providing your opinion. I stand by mine.

JAM

I do my best not to be a reason for anything ugly here.

I didn't mean to be offensive, and I feel I do understand your point.

You are definitely right about that generation thing (even though I am a very nostalgic person, I even put 'Irving Crane' to be my favourite player in an interwiev).
I mean to say, that I would like Pool to arise from the gambling backgrounds to a respectable sport. I might be naive (I am often, but maybe even in this vision ) as I would like to see pool as a sport, not only as a game.
I don't know how long I will live, but to see Pool in Olympics, is my greatest dream about the sport.
With the gambling reputation and without dress codes and manners of the players, it will never be possible. I might sound over optimistic, but I like to think big and look further than my own life also.

It is true that you are as big fan of the sport as I am, and your memories and experiences are not only more, but they are also from the birth place (USA) of the game. So, you are very much entitled to your opinion, I am not only respecting it but also understanding it very well.
I just want to see the growth so badly, that even it 'hurts' much, I would change the game more towards golf (gentlemans sport), than towards poker and boxing (showlike exitement).

I know I'm in minority, and it is possible that it is not possible - Pool to be considered a great sport.

My friend said, that pool is too easy (looking too easy in the TV), so it cannot be considered a big sport like golf, so these show aspects are needed.
Then again, Alex Higgins won his first Snooker WC at 1972, and received 380gbp, which is about 760usd.
Now, the champion receives a pay check of about 400 000usd, and if you score a maximum break, you'll receive about the same 400 000usd on top of it.
In the eightie's, Snooker was already the most viewed sport in TV in England. (this is hard to believe, as they are also soccer maniacs, but that's how I understood it from what I red in english..)

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

I've seen "heart" mentioned as in reference to Oliver doesn't have the heart to compete like some others and I've seen it mentioned that he has a business that takes him away from the game. What I haven't seen is mention of something that he has no control over though it controls whether he plays or not and has affected him as recently as the last couple of months. I am speaking of the problems with his upper back. These are problems that he was born with and has had surgery to try to correct. I can't remember exactly how long ago it was that he had surgery but I believe it was 4 to 6 yrs ago.

Less than two months ago Ortmann was in the hospital looking at more surgery. When he would extend his bridge hand onto the table, he said it felt as if the nerves in his back were being ripped through his arm and out his finger tip. It was entirely too excruciating to play pool. Before having surgery, he consulted his first surgeon and they've decided to try a different therapy (one that involves cortisone shots) before having another surgery.

Not being able to compete physically, due to a defect he had at birth is quite different than not having the heart to win anymore or being too busy with his job.

 

[Marvel]

@marvel: souquet has won more than oliver - do you have a good argument or a evidence for this?

Actually yes, but especially after -95, like I stated later..

 

[JAM]

I do my best not to be a reason for anything ugly here.

I didn't mean to be offensive, and I feel I do understand your point.

You are definitely right about that generation thing (even though I am a very nostalgic person, I even put 'Irving Crane' to be my favourite player in an interwiev).
I mean to say, that I would like Pool to arise from the gambling backgrounds to a respectable sport. I might be naive (I am often, but maybe even in this vision ) as I would like to see pool as a sport, not only as a game.
I don't know how long I will live, but to see Pool in Olympics, is my greatest dream about the sport.
With the gambling reputation and without dress codes and manners of the players, it will never be possible. I might sound over optimistic, but I like to think big and look further than my own life also.

It is true that you are as big fan of the sport as I am, and your memories and experiences are not only more, but they are also from the birth place (USA) of the game. So, you are very much entitled to your opinion, I am not only respecting it but also understanding it very well.
I just want to see the growth so badly, that even it 'hurts' much, I would change the game more towards golf (gentlemans sport), than towards poker and boxing (showlike exitement).

I know I'm in minority, and it is possible that it is not possible - Pool to be considered a great sport.

My friend said, that pool is too easy (looking too easy in the TV), so it cannot be considered a big sport like golf, so these show aspects are needed.
Then again, Alex Higgins won his first Snooker WC at 1972, and received 380gbp, which is about 760usd.
Now, the champion receives a pay check of about 400 000usd, and if you score a maximum break, you'll receive about the same 400 000usd on top of it.
In the eightie's, Snooker was already the most viewed sport in TV in England. (this is hard to believe, as they are also soccer maniacs, but that's how I understood it from what I red in english..)

A very well-written post, and your views in this respect are quite reflective of the problem that pool as a sport faces today!

Even those of us within pool's own culture are conflicted about what the direction should be for pool. The purists want to see men in tuxedos and women in ball gowns, I guess, playing in a church-like setting. Then there are those who desire to hear the barkfests and watch the gamblers perform, much like poker on TV is today. This conflict may be what is holding pool back. If those of us within the pool culture can't agree on how it should be showcased, therein lies one problem.

Personally, I always thought snooker sucked and was boring as could be, but then my counterpart got engaged in a snooker gambling match for $300 a game. I became a new fan of snooker, but I'm not so sure I could watch the blue-blooded snooker players compete on TV, unless it was Higgins. I kind of like that guy!

I am in agreement with you in that I hope we see pool reach an acceptable notoriety within our lifetimes. The future of pool needs a change agent. I had thought it was going to be the IPT, but it didn't happen. Now we're back to following a tournament trail that doesn't offer a decent wage for its professional players. Oh, well. That said, I will try to remain optimistic.

JAM

 

[Marvel]

I've seen "heart" mentioned as in reference to Oliver doesn't have the heart to compete like some others and I've seen it mentioned that he has a business that takes him away from the game. What I haven't seen is mention of something that he has no control over though it controls whether he plays or not and has affected him as recently as the last couple of months. I am speaking of the problems with his upper back. These are problems that he was born with and has had surgery to try to correct. I can't remember exactly how long ago it was that he had surgery but I believe it was 4 to 6 yrs ago.

Less than two months ago Ortmann was in the hospital looking at more surgery. When he would extend his bridge hand onto the table, he said it felt as if the nerves in his back were being ripped through his arm and out his finger tip. It was entirely too excruciating to play pool. Before having surgery, he consulted his first surgeon and they've decided to try a different therapy (one that involves cortisone shots) before having another surgery.

Not being able to compete physically, due to a defect he had at birth is quite different than not having the heart to win anymore or being too busy with his job.

If you're too busy with your job, then you probably have lost something from the game. Physical injuries are of course something else, but it shows in results, not in 'heart'.

This is what I meant:


"on the contrary like Efren, who just loves the game so much, that he will play it even he wouldn't see the pockets no more..

Now I'm already quite much off topic, but the urge to win (Sigel, Strickland, Oliver etc...) is often mistaken and said as "he wears his heart on his sleeve" etc, even I look at it only as an ego orientation and obsession. Players with big heart (Efren..), don't hide behind explanations or negative attitude when they have to face a loss.."


Oliver's behaviour is very very often pretty arrogant and negative. Just stating the truth, not wishing to hurt anyones feelings. He's nice guy off the table, at least sometimes and at least a little..

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Oliver's behaviour is very very often pretty arrogant and negative. Just stating the truth, not wishing to hurt anyones feelings. He's nice guy off the table, at least sometimes and at least a little..

No feelings hurt here. I just thought it should be mentioned as a reason for him not competing as much as his counterparts.

I have not competed against Mr. Ortmann but I have met him and spent time with him away from the table. I also have friends that are much closer in friendship with him than I am and they think quite highly of him. I enjoyed my time getting to know Mr. Ortmann and understood my friends fondness of him.

I do not know him well enough to speak of his character. I can only go on what little I know and what our mutual friends have related to me. Having had back difficulties myself, I know all too well how crippling it can be and I thought it only fair to get that out in this discussion.

 

[DonFelix]

@ marvel: i have a question: what means for you that a player is better than an other, or especially souquet is better than ortmann? is it tournament results or skills or subjective opinion or.....?

i would really like to discuss this topic here more, because i know a little bit about oliver (of course not very much), especially the younger oliver, but my english is way way to bad.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Oliver's behaviour is very very often pretty arrogant and negative. Just stating the truth, not wishing to hurt anyones feelings. He's nice guy off the table, at least sometimes and at least a little..

Marvel,

From your posts, I'm begining to think you have something against Ortmann
In post # 27, I listed some of his and Souquet's accomplishments and you seem to feel that Souquet has just dominated him since the mid 1990s and that's just not so.

As for his behavior, two quick anectdotes for your perusal. The first, when he was playing Fong Pang Chao in the 2000 World 9 Ball Championships and Chao's cell phone kept ringing when Oliver was shooting, and when Chao would abrupty turn in his chair or suddenly move when Ortmann was shooting. After the match, Ortmann went over to Chao and shook his hand without saying a word.
The other is a personal account when I sent him an email in the late 1990s asking him a question on his high run in 14.1. He not only replied, but also sent a nice note and an autographed photo to me. So, he is definitely "fan friendly". Arrogant and unfriendly pepole don't usually respond like that.

I've been following his career since the 1980s and he seems like a pretty decent man to me. And a great player and champion as well.

 

[Marvel]

@ marvel: i have a question: what means for you that a player is better than an other, or especially souquet is better than ortmann? is it tournament results or skills or subjective opinion or.....?

i would really like to discuss this topic here more, because i know a little bit about oliver (of course not very much), especially the younger oliver, but my english is way way to bad.

Hi DonFelix!


I'm sorry but I've gotta go..

To answer this question through outly, I'd need lots of time (as I'm not good stating my self shortly )

About Oliver and Ralph, I've actually written much in this topic already.
Oliver is more talented, but Ralf is (much much) more dedicated.
Before 1995, when Oliver hadn't yet achieved his goal (to win a World Championships), he played much better IMHO. I mean, he was fast and deadly.

I said he lost some heart afterwards, the reason might be the physical pains, but I believe also economical.
Souquet instead, has played and played, worked and worked, and now hes one of the most winningest player in the world, during these last two decades.

Many player and fan consider Ralf boring. Me too, but I respect his dedication and his sportsmanlike behaviour so much, that I am able to respect him as one of the Greats in the Sport.
Oliver was fun to watch in early 90's, but since then, he has lost the joy, so his game looks painful (of course the actual physical pain is a good reason for it though). He is much slower, probably mostly because lack of practise, but also because lack of confidense (= lack of joy).
Also, his strategy and cue ball control is quite horrible (as many European top players have in 9-ball, as they came from 14.1. backgrounds), and those are my favourite aspects of the game, so that's why I hardly never watch his game.
I must still say, that Oliver's will power is something you might be difficult to find from others.
He's out of the position and the line most of the time, but still he keeps on pocketing and pocketing, running oout, and winning tournaments. Not nice to watch, but effective it is. Like most germans (if not all) when they play.

 

[Marvel]

Marvel,

From your posts, I'm begining to think you have something against Ortmann
In post # 27, I listed some of his and Souquet's accomplishments and you seem to feel that Souquet has just dominated him since the mid 1990s and that's just not so.

As for his behavior, two quick anectdotes for your perusal. The first, when he was playing Fong Pang Chao in the 2000 World 9 Ball Championships and Chao's cell phone kept ringing when Oliver was shooting, and when Chao would abrupty turn in his chair or suddenly move when Ortmann was shooting. After the match, Ortmann went over to Chao and shook his hand without saying a word.
The other is a personal account when I sent him an email in the late 1990s asking him a question on his high run in 14.1. He not only replied, but also sent a nice note and an autographed photo to me. So, he is definitely "fan friendly". Arrogant and unfriendly pepole don't usually respond like that.

I've been following his career since the 1980s and he seems like a pretty decent man to me. And a great player and champion as well.

Please, read all my post in this topic, so you'll find that I came here to support his achievements.

Off the table he is fan friendly, and if you do business with him, I'm sure he's the most trustable and co-operative partner.
All germans are 'teached' to be sportsmen, it's in their culture, so this thing with Chao is of course his style.
Germans are also very honest ans especially they have high woking ethics.

Compared to average pool player, he is a true gentleman, but compared to Souquet, Hohmann or for example Rochkowsky, he has some manners which are not so nice on the table. There is some psycholocial war, rudeness towards the opponent, arrogant expressions about opponents shots, subtle sharking etc, which I don't see necessary at all, to win a game, and those other german players whom I just stated, don't have to do that. Mostly, his frustrated, joyless and some how negative attitude on the table is why I'm not the biggest of his fans.

I prefer those who play with less effort and more relaxed and joyous way.
And even you would play with lot's of effort, it makes a big difference if your attitude is positive or negative - if you're joking, calm or just fully focused, than angry and frustrated..


And, you know; rather I listen soul, jazz, or even reggae, than a march music..

 

[Marvel]

The other is a personal account when I sent him an email in the late 1990s asking him a question on his high run in 14.1. He not only replied, but also sent a nice note and an autographed photo to me. So, he is definitely "fan friendly". Arrogant and unfriendly pepole don't usually respond like that.

I've been following his career since the 1980s and he seems like a pretty decent man to me. And a great player and champion as well.

...he also helped me without any rewards, when I asked if he new any tricks to straighten a shaft + the pool room owner gave him a lot of credit when he was invited to a tournament with other top pros. The owner said Oliver was by far the easiest and most reliable of those (other were not germans )...

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Mostly, his frustrated, joyless and some how negative attitude on the table is why I'm not the biggest of his fans.

I prefer those who play with less effort and more relaxed and joyous way.
And even you would play with lot's of effort, it makes a big difference if your attitude is positive or negative - if you're joking, calm or just fully focused, than angry and frustrated.

My facial features are such, that I appear to be angry if I am not making a conscious effort to smile. Many times in my life, people (strangers passing by) will stop and tell me to "smile, it can't be that bad.". The only problem with this is that they're right, it's not that bad. I was actually in a perfectly good mood. A large majority of the people in the world do not walk around with a smile on their face all the time, nor do they appear to be angry if they are not smiling. I've often wondered if Mr. Ortmann has had the same problems as I have with this particular problem in life and you've just proven that he does.

Ralf's face is emotionless when he plays because he is concentrating. Mr. Ortmann is also concentrating on the match, except he does not appear emotionless simply because of his facial features. A forum member posted a picture of Mr. Ortmann down on a ball during the finals and he looked quite angry. I know that if I were playing in the finals of a championship like this past weekend, or any other tournament for that matter, my mind would be on concentrating and playing to the best of my ability. I would not be thinking about trying to look angry so that I could shark/intimidate my opponent.

Unless you've had personal run ins with Mr. Ortmann, I think you're quite mistaken and judging a book by its cover if you're going on his facial features alone.

 

[rossaroni]

Funny you should mention that because, in fact, Ronnie Allen has won many pocket billiard tournaments. I am currently working on a biographical collection of stats for American pool players, and Ronnie's accomplishments are many, which occurred before he became known as the famed gambler that he is today.

I think they are American legends, again, whose accomplishments are not well known. These two pool icons make up the very fabric of American pool, where the Europeans seem to like to congregate today to compete on American soil. If they are not deserving, it is a shame, but I am not a voting member for the BCA. If I was, they'd get in.



Gimme a break. Not as good as tournament players? How old are you, and how long is your knowledge base? Just because Grady is in his sixties today and may not compete with your beloved Ortmann, he has accomplished more in his career than Ortmann has today. Ortmann, in fact, has a long way to go to catch up with Grady Mathews.



Yes, they do, the game of one-pocket.



Now I know you're a little off base. You need to do a little checking, and then maybe get back to me on this thread.



Doubt it.

JAM

Well, first off, I am 12 years old. I may not have been around during these olders players prime, but I feel I know a little more then most kids my age.
Maybe "tournament players" was not the best wording, but i think many people will get what I meant. I do understand that Grady was a great nineball and 14.1 player in his prime. I believe he placed second to Varner at the World 9-ball championships one year. However, he is know as a one pocket player more then any other game. He has won four One-Pocket World Championships, the the BCA doesn't usually look at one pocket players. Boston Shorty may be an exception and Fats got in for different reason then his playing. The difference between great players and Hall of Fame players are championships won. I know that Jimmy Moore may have placed second in a lot of world championships, but at least it was consistent.

As far as Ronnie goes, I know he won some tournaments, but I don't know if any where world championships. I know he won the 1962(i think) one pocket tournament at Cochran's and he won a few big nineball tournaments as well. I may be wrong about the year and place, but I am just using my memory, which fails me sometime at my young age. I just don't think he has a chance of getting in the BCA HOF. I know that Parcia has been one the best all around players for the last 20 years, but I din't see many MAJOR championships on that list someone provided-there are a few though. He has won many tournaments in his great career, but I don't know if the BCA will ever give him the nod.

If the Hall of Fame was based on the players ability then we would have Don Willis, Denny Searcy, Keith, and others in. they have to base the selections on something and championships won seem to be it. BTW, I don't know if Ortmann should get in or not. I was just asking a question and wanting to see what people thought.
P.S. I am not really 12!

 

[Terry Ardeno]

If the Hall of Fame was based on the players ability then we would have Don Willis, Denny Searcy, Keith, an others in. they have to base the selections on something and championships won seem to be it.

Good point.


BTW, I don't know if Ortmann should get in or not.

WHAT!? Even after all the evidence that he SHOULD!?

I was just asking a question and wanting to see what people thought.
P.S. I am not really 12!

Lastly, after starting this wonderful thread and reading all the posts, what think ye now?

If you say "He should NOT be in the HOF", then I have to start to wonder if you also served on the O.J. jury when you WERE 12

PS-I tried to include some comments in your quoted comments, but it posted like they were yours. Sorry. I still don't know how to do all this computer stuff...

 

[Jimmy M.]

1989/1993 US Open 14.1 Champion.

BTW, I love that name "Oliver." It's one of my favorites!

Here's all I could find that is publicly available. Please add to the list:

2007 World 14.1 Champion
1995 World Nine-ball Pool Champion
1997 and 2000 International Challenge of Champions winner
1995 and 2002 Mosconi Cup winning captain
2007 EPBF European Eight-ball Pool Championships

JAM

 

[rossaroni]

Lastly, after starting this wonderful thread and reading all the posts, what think ye now?

If you say "He should NOT be in the HOF", then I have to start to wonder if you also served on the O.J. jury when you WERE 12

PS-I tried to include some comments in your quoted comments, but it posted like they were yours. Sorry. I still don't know how to do all this computer stuff...

Thank you Terry! I think Ortmann deserves to be elected someday. I ask the question because I have never seen Ortmann's name come up when people are taling about the HOF, but I knew he had some other championships besides the one he just won. Like others have already stated, there are a few who probably deserve to get in before him- Hopkins, Archer-Allison too. Ortmann is kind of like Choa, in the fact that neither one is in America playing a lot, but both have won there fair share of championships and always are a threat.

 

[JAM]

1989/1993 US Open 14.1 Champion.

Jimmy, would you be able to provide a reference for this two events? I am not doubting you at all. I would like to add it to my pool player archives. I only add tournament wins to the archives that I can reference via newspaper, magazines, or website link. Thanks in advance!

JAM

 

[Jimmy M.]

Jimmy, would you be able to provide a reference for this two events? I am not doubting you at all. I would like to add it to my pool player archives. I only add tournament wins to the archives that I can reference via newspaper, magazines, or website link. Thanks in advance!

JAM

Unfortunately, I can't. I was there in '93 and I have the finals from '89 against Mizerak on tape (unfortunately, both players played miserably and Mizerak, being the heavy favorite in everyone's minds at the time, had many chances to win but just didn't). Funny thing is, while I was there in 1993, I can't remember who he beat in the finals. I remember Shin Mei Lui (I hope I'm spelling that correctly) won the women's division but, again, I can't remember who she beat either.

And I don't even take any mind-altering substances!