Ortmann-Hall of Fame

[Terry Ardeno]

References

Jimmy, would you be able to provide a reference for this two events? I am not doubting you at all. I would like to add it to my pool player archives. I only add tournament wins to the archives that I can reference via newspaper, magazines, or website link. Thanks in advance!

JAM

JAM,
In the 1998 edition of the BCA Rules & Record book, on page 222, it lists Ortmann winning the 1989 U.S. Open 14.1 Championship w/ the Miz in 2nd.
For 1993, Ortmann is the winner w/ Chien Sheng Lee in 2nd. Each edition that's been updated has the same info, just on different pages.

I keep historical stats on almost every major tournament, including info on most of the pro players. I have loads of references. If you need anything in particular, PM or email me.

 

[sjm]

SJM,

Oh my. I feel like the guy who sits atop the dunk tank in a circus and a baseball team is lining up to buy tickets. Disagreeing with you Stu is not easy, but I must interject some facts here.

To say that Ortmann's career "certainly pales in comparision to...Souquet's" is not an accurate statement.

Here is a head to head compariosn, but keep in mind, Souquet is a full time professional player. Ortmann is a billiard room and billiard supply company owner who only selectively competes in events when time permits.
Ralf Souquet - Born 11/29/1968 HR in 14.1=285
1996 World 9 Ball Champion
1996 Challenge of Champion winner
2003 & 2006 BCA Open 9 Bll Champion
2004 & 2005 Derby City Classic 9 Ball Champion
2002 U.S. Open 9 Ball Champion
2000 U.S. Open 14.1 Champion
5 time World Pool Masters Champion
3 time Europena 14.1 Champion
10 time European 8 Ball Champion
4 time European 9 Ball Champion
5 time German 8 Ball Champion
5 time German 9 Ball Champion
1994 German 14.1 Champion

Oliver Ortmann - Born 6/17/1967 HR in 14.1 = 326
1995 World 9 Ball Champion
1989 & 1993 U.S. Open 14.1 Champion
2007 World 14.1 Champion
1997 & 2000 Challenge of Champions winner
5 time European 14.1 Champion
3 time European 8 Ball Champion
6 time European 9 Ball Champion
3 time German 9 Ball Champion
10 time German 14.1 Champion.

Ortmann is CLEARLY the better 14.1 player of the two if you consider credentials in 14.1 tournaments. (Even if you don't like his style of pattern play )
Souquet enters most every tournament, Ortmann does not because of business obligations. Souquet's accomplishments should not be diminsihed, however, just because Ortmann doen't enter as many tournaments. But neither does Souquet's accomplishments dwarf Ortmann's. Personlly, I belive that both are equally deserving of the HOF. But either way, Oliver Ortmann is one of the greatest players of this generation. He has, in my opinion, monumental credentials.

I happen to agree that Ortmann has the better straight pool credentials, and by proclaiming him to be on the HOF fence, I've made it clear that I feel he's worthy of consideration.

But our criteria are very different when it comes to judging careers. To me, greatness is measured by performance in the tournaments that are very, very difficult to succeed in. In our sport today, I feel only four nine ball tournaments qualify as having an elite, internationally, diverse, and deep field each and every year. They are the BCA Open, the US Open, the Derby City Classic and the World Pool Championships, and it is at these events where Ralf has demonstrated that he has one of the strongest nine ball pedigrees in the history of the game. If Ortmann has chased these titles that only the truly elite have tended to be able to earn with less fervor than Souquet, so what? The fact remains that, save the 1995 WPC, he has not won the toughest nine ball titles, and his resume, consquently, has a lot of holes in it. Yes, he's been successful on the Eurotour, and that certainly means something, but Eurotour victories cannot be considered on a par with conquests of the toughest, internationally balanced fields.

Souquet, on the other hand, has shown a regular ability to beat world beater after world beater in the game's toughest tests. In the 2006 Derby City Classic, he beat Luat and Archer in the last two matches. In the 2006 BCA Open, he beat Reyes in the semifinal and Archer in the final. At the 2003 BCA Open, he beat Immonen in the seminfinal and Bustamante in the final. At the 2002 US Open, the other three that reached the final day were Pagulayan, Strickland and Morris, but Ralf hoisted the trophy. And there are many other examples of Ralf's ability to pass the toughest tests in nine ball, but such conquests are few and far between on Ortmann's nine ball resume.

I'm conceding that Ortmann's straight pool credentials are magnificent, but this is the nine ball era, and that is a very important consideration.

So, I'll repeat my contention that Ortmann's career is not nearly on a par with that of Ralf.

Still, nice post, Terry.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I happen to agree that Ortmann has the better straight pool credentials, and by proclaiming him to be on the HOF fence, I've made it clear that I feel he's worthy of consideration.

But our criteria are very different when it comes to judging careers. To me, greatness is measured by performance in the tournaments that are very, very difficult to succeed in. In our sport today, I feel only four nine ball tournaments qualify as having an elite, internationally, diverse, and deep field each and every year. They are the BCA Open, the US Open, the Derby City Classic and the World Pool Championships, and it is at these events where Ralf has demonstrated that he has one of the strongest nine ball pedigrees in the history of the game. If Ortmann has chased these titles that only the truly elite have tended to be able to earn with less fervor than Souquet, so what? The fact remains that, save the 1995 WPC, he has not won the toughest nine ball titles, and his resume, consquently, has a lot of holes in it. Yes, he's been successful on the Eurotour, and that certainly means something, but Eurotour victories cannot be considered on a par with conquests of the toughest, internationally balanced fields.

Souquet, on the other hand, has shown a regular ability to beat world beater after world beater in the game's toughest tests. In the 2006 Derby City Classic, he beat Luat and Archer in the last two matches. In the 2006 BCA Open, he beat Reyes in the semifinal and Archer in the final. At the 2003 BCA Open, he beat Immonen in the seminfinal and Bustamante in the final. At the 2002 US Open, the other three that reached the final day were Pagulayan, Strickland and Morris, but Ralf hoisted the trophy. And there are many other examples of Ralf's ability to pass the toughest tests in nine ball, but such conquests are few and far between on Ortmann's nine ball resume.

I'm conceding that Ortmann's straight pool credentials are magnificent, but this is the nine ball era, and that is a very important consideration.

So, I'll repeat my contention that Ortmann's career is not nearly on a par with that of Ralf.

Still, nice post, Terry.

SJM,
Thank you for adding your always sagacious views and insights to this thread. Your opinion certainly means a lot and I do value your assessment of both of these great champions. Thanks also for taking the time to respond to my question. It's appreciated.

 

[sjm]

JAM,
In the 1998 edition of the BCA Rules & Record book, on page 222, it lists Ortmann winning the 1989 U.S. Open 14.1 Championship w/ the Miz in 2nd.
For 1993, Ortmann is the winner w/ Chien Sheng Lee in 2nd. Each edition that's been updated has the same info, just on different pages.

I keep historical stats on almost every major tournament, including info on most of the pro players. I have loads of references. If you need anything in particular, PM or email me.

If memory serves, there was a major boycott of the 1993 US Open 14.1 event, and many of the top players didn't play.

 

[bud green]

I agree with SJM. Ralf has won numerous events with monster fields and his victories just include more impressive wins given the competition. Oliver is a fantastic 14.1 player, but Challenge of Champions and other limited field events don't mean squat to me compared to US Opens, World Championships, even DCC events. Alex Pagulayan might be closer to Oliver than Oliver is to guys like Souqet, Archer, or Parica. Archer has almost as many World and US Open titles as Earl and his record is clearly as impressive as anyone else who's not already in.

Like Jimmy M. said, Oliver didn't even play good at all in the finals in '89; Mizerak on any other day should of murdered him given that Oliver gave the table back many, many times. Limited field in his his win in '93, and not many top titles since then puts him on the fence. I DO believe that if he decided to keep playing and won some more "major" titles, he could get in. He's close, but just not there yet IMO.

 

[Blackjack]

If memory serves, there was a major boycott of the 1993 US Open 14.1 event, and many of the top players didn't play.

SJM,

The "major boycott" was the 1989 event. I still have the letter that was sent out. lol

I believe that the 1993 event coincided with a 9 ball event, I forget which one - but I think it was the Memphis event where they used the Meucci shot clocks... but I'm probably wrong about that.

Does anybody out there have the dates for the 1993 event?

 

[sjm]

SJM,

The "major boycott" was the 1989 event. I still have the letter that was sent out. lol

I believe that the 1993 event coincided with a 9 ball event, I forget which one - but I think it was the Memphis event where they used the Meucci shot clocks... but I'm probably wrong about that.

Does anybody out there have the dates for the 1993 event?

Thanks for the correction. Of course, the fact remains that Ortmann won the one that had the boycott, as I thought.

1993 US Open 14.1 was, I'm guessing, in late August.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Does anybody out there have the dates for the 1993 event?

Oct 13-17, 1993 at the grand ballroom of the Pennsylvania Hotel in NYC.
The promoter was Barry Dubow.
Ortman was 1st place, winning $12,000.
2nd was Chien-Sheng Lee ($7,500)
3rd Carlos Vieira ($4,500)
4th Bob Vanover
5th/6th Ray Martin & Bob Hunter
7th/8th Danny Barouty & Dallas West


Other notable players in this field were Larry Lisciotti, Mike Zuglan, Johnny Ervolino, Jose Garcia, Grady Mathews & Jack Colavita.

Hardly easy pickin's....

 

[hemicudas]

US Open???

What if the US Open 9 ball and 14-1 were just that? Like German and Euro championships, open to US residents ONLY? Obviously, there would be quite a few more wins for US players to put on their resumes.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Really?

Archer has almost as many World and US Open titles as Earl and his record is clearly as impressive as anyone else who's not already in.

Earl Strickland has won 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships (1984, 1987, 1993, 1997 & 2000)
Johnny Archer has ONE...in 1999

Earl Strickland has won 6 World 9 Ball Championships (1984, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1994 & 2002)
Johnny Archer has won 4 World 9 Ball Championships (1992, 1993, 1995 & 1997)

That's Strickland 11, Archer 5.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Like Jimmy M. said, Oliver didn't even play good at all in the finals in '89; Mizerak on any other day should of murdered him given that Oliver gave the table back many, many times. Limited field in his his win in '93, and not many top titles since then puts him on the fence. I DO believe that if he decided to keep playing and won some more "major" titles, he could get in. He's close, but just not there yet IMO.

Bud,
Ortmann kept getting back to the table so many times because Mizerak kept missing...

With regards to the part where you said Ortmann is "on the fence. I DO believe that if he ...and won some more "major" titles, he could get in. He's close, but just not there yet."

Lou Butera is IN the HOF for winning the 1973 World 14.1 Championship.
His BCA bio, the paragraph they write about their enshrined champions, also said he finished runner up to Irving Crane in the 1972 14.1 World Championships. That's all. AFTER he was enshrined, he won some other mid level tournaments. Never won another major title, let alone any other championship.
Cicero Murphy is in the HOF. His paragraph reads in part "Murphy was the first and only African-American ever to win a world or US title". He did win the 1965 World 14.1 Championship, a tournament, by the way, that the same BCA never sanctioned. So when they say that Grady Mathews, Hopkins, etc have not won "sanctioned" tournaments, guess what? Neither did Murphy.
In Jimmy Moore's case, he's IN the HOF and guess what? The very first line in his paragraph states "Although Jimmy Moore never won a world title..."

Do you see what I'm getting at?

Here is a quick recap of Ortmann's accomplishments...
Oliver Ortmann - HR in 14.1 = 326
1995 World 9 Ball Champion
1989 & 1993 U.S. Open 14.1 Champion
2007 World 14.1 Champion
1997 & 2000 Challenge of Champions winner
5 time European 14.1 Champion
3 time European 8 Ball Champion
6 time European 9 Ball Champion
3 time German 9 Ball Champion
10 time German 14.1 Champion.

Allen Hopkins, I can make just as strong a case for him as well. Same with Bennie Allen.
I could go on, but why?

 

[Terry Ardeno]

What if the US Open 9 ball and 14-1 were just that? Like German and Euro championships, open to US residents ONLY? Obviously, there would be quite a few more wins for US players to put on their resumes.

Great point Bill. And also nice to see you on this thread.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Bud,
Ortmann kept getting back to the table so many times because Mizerak kept missing...

The same could be said for either player. It was a poor match for both players. I do believe though, at least at the time, Mizerak was the better straight pool player. He just didn't win the match. That's the way it goes in pool, I guess. If the best player won every match, Efren would win every tournament and pool would get real boring in a hurry.

 

[Marvel]

The same could be said for either player. It was a poor match for both players. I do believe though, at least at the time, Mizerak was the better straight pool player. He just didn't win the match. That's the way it goes in pool, I guess. If the best player won every match, Efren would win every tournament and pool would get real boring in a hurry.

That's a good point. I'm sure they played bad cos they were tired. It shows Oliver's capasity to pull the win in the end.

IMHO, it is never a very good reason to disrispect someones win, if the opponent played badly.
Many times the game goes in that kind of way, bcos of the exitment in the air. The one who can make the last balls, deserves the win.
For example, at Reno last September, Efren and Rodney both didn't play that well. Efren pulled the victory. If the atmosphere would have been different, they both probably would have played much better, but the result would've probably still been the same..

 

[Marvel]

Unless you've had personal run ins with Mr. Ortmann, I think you're quite mistaken and judging a book by its cover if you're going on his facial features alone.

I hope I'm not sounding too 'judging' anyway, but I'm not talking about the facial expressions alone either.

Of course they matter also, but I know what you mean. I have experienced the same kind of stuff, especially earlier. Now, I've got maybe 25kg more, so I look more relaxed

But anyway, it tells about our culture something still, if people read our faces like that. If the heart is open, you cannot be mis-understood to be in a bad mood..

When I was in Philippines seven years ago for five months (I was that skinny guy with too much in my head and too less in my heart), I was always been asked why I was in a bad mood. I answered that I am not, but now, I can see that I was. At least compared to really being relaxed and heart opened.
It's all so relative.
Just compare Efren to Oliver, so you know what I mean.
But actually, Efren is not good comparison, as he's a saint probably

 

[bhoytam]

what about

RALF SOQUET

never get in
in hall of fame

WHY? = COZ OF

1) too slow
2) too boring to watch
3) too sleepy to watch
4) too irratating to watch
5) governing body of pocket billiards,doesn't like ralf.

last time ralf most championship game very little people watching maybe really slow but last year vs ronnei alcano ralf not really that slow,




ralf supposely a member of hall of fame

WHY?

 

[Marvel]

Even those of us within pool's own culture are conflicted about what the direction should be for pool. The purists want to see men in tuxedos and women in ball gowns, I guess, playing in a church-like setting. Then there are those who desire to hear the barkfests and watch the gamblers perform, much like poker on TV is today. This conflict may be what is holding pool back. If those of us within the pool culture can't agree on how it should be showcased, therein lies one problem.



JAM

Hi JAM!


I hope you didn't get a picture that I'm a purist, who want's pool to be played in a church-like setting

I'm always trying to find the Middle Path in everything.

IPT was a good step (or would have been), not only bcos of the prize money, but the dress codes and stuff.
Still, it was little bit too 'vegas' for me, with those blondes taking care of the score board and all that hype - cash (even fake ) instead of a check.
I believe Pool should maintain more 'show' in it, compared to Snooker and Golf, but less than what they are trying now (especially in US - but the approach surely is different for example comparing US and Taiwan*).

Matchroomsports TV-production is great, and it could be imporoved still. Then, personalities like Alex, Efren, Rodney and stuff (those calm face taiwanese, like Yang an Wu are ok also, IMHO - Earl definitely of course, when he is in good mood), and it is not boring at all to watch from TV. Shot clock is a good thing (not too tight, maybe 40sec.), also to show as much emotions as wished, if it is not getting into barking too much.

I agree with you completely, that most europeans (not all luckily) are like robots or like these Buckingham fellows, but the main problem is the negativness in the attitude. In that case, americans are so much better, but then again, americans whine quite much, as europeans consider it childish.
I like pinoys of course, as they are not only good players, but controlling their negative emotions (if they have), and showing all the rest.
Taiwanese are also fine, I like their calm approach, but it's true they are bit boring sometimes also, but not at all like some europeans.

It's somehow funny (or sad - whatever), how Ralf is probably the most dedicated and professional player there is. He's extremely nice guy. There's probably no-one, who would more like to see Pool to grow and been accepted as a great sport. Still, at the same time, his kind of players are too boring to watch and Pool cannot grow because of that.

I don't know, Steve Davis was as emotionless and methodical as Ralf (maybe bit faster though), and still Snooker became BIG in UK. they say Alex Higgins was the reason, but they sure liked Steve also.
Then again, Steve has said him self, (what it comes to playing) that "Snooker needs more accuracy, Pool needs more feeling".
I believe that statement is usable when wondering the desire of the audience also..


*In Taiwan, they play tournaments in a TV-studio, where is one table and no audience at all. TV-studio is a good idea, but it should include at least a 100-200 person audience. In Taiwan, I'm sure it would be easy to get 1000-2000 fans in the audience..

 

[JAM]

What if the US Open 9 ball and 14-1 were just that? Like German and Euro championships, open to US residents ONLY? Obviously, there would be quite a few more wins for US players to put on their resumes.

Hear, hear, and a resounding tap, tap, tap!

JAM

 

[JAM]

Hi JAM!


I hope you didn't get a picture that I'm a purist, who want's pool to be played in a church-like setting

I'm always trying to find the Middle Path in everything.

IPT was a good step (or would have been), not only bcos of the prize money, but the dress codes and stuff.
Still, it was little bit too 'vegas' for me, with those blondes taking care of the score board and all that hype - cash (even fake ) instead of a check.
I believe Pool should maintain more 'show' in it, compared to Snooker and Golf, but less than what they are trying now (especially in US - but the approach surely is different for example comparing US and Taiwan*).

Matchroomsports TV-production is great, and it could be imporoved still. Then, personalities like Alex, Efren, Rodney and stuff (those calm face taiwanese, like Yang an Wu are ok also, IMHO - Earl definitely of course, when he is in good mood), and it is not boring at all to watch from TV. Shot clock is a good thing (not too tight, maybe 40sec.), also to show as much emotions as wished, if it is not getting into barking too much.

I agree with you completely, that most europeans (not all luckily) are like robots or like these Buckingham fellows, but the main problem is the negativness in the attitude. In that case, americans are so much better, but then again, americans whine quite much, as europeans consider it childish.
I like pinoys of course, as they are not only good players, but controlling their negative emotions (if they have), and showing all the rest.
Taiwanese are also fine, I like their calm approach, but it's true they are bit boring sometimes also, but not at all like some europeans.

It's somehow funny (or sad - whatever), how Ralf is probably the most dedicated and professional player there is. He's extremely nice guy. There's probably no-one, who would more like to see Pool to grow and been accepted as a great sport. Still, at the same time, his kind of players are too boring to watch and Pool cannot grow because of that.

I don't know, Steve Davis was as emotionless and methodical as Ralf (maybe bit faster though), and still Snooker became BIG in UK. they say Alex Higgins was the reason, but they sure liked Steve also.
Then again, Steve has said him self, (what it comes to playing) that "Snooker needs more accuracy, Pool needs more feeling".
I believe that statement is usable when wondering the desire of the audience also..


*In Taiwan, they play tournaments in a TV-studio, where is one table and no audience at all. TV-studio is a good idea, but it should include at least a 100-200 person audience. In Taiwan, I'm sure it would be easy to get 1000-2000 fans in the audience..

I agree with much of what you state!

JAM

 

[Lou_1]

what about

RALF SOQUET

never get in
in hall of fame

WHY? = COZ OF

1) too slow
2) too boring to watch
3) too sleepy to watch
4) too irratating to watch
5) governing body of pocket billiards,doesn't like ralf.

last time ralf most championship game very little people watching maybe really slow but last year vs ronnei alcano ralf not really that slow,




ralf supposely a member of hall of fame

WHY?

I'm sorry to say, but this is probably the worst post I saw in this topic.
Maybe u don't like his type of play, but that has nothing to do with his ability and it shouldn't be a matter to jugde a player...
Sure...Tony Drago is more fun to watch than Ralf, but does that make him a better player? Off course not.
(Let me say: this is not to offend Drago in anyway, because he's a great guy... I just use it to make a point).

Greetz.