Ortmann-Hall of Fame

of course though ..they all did it a houndred years ago

exception to the rule: Ceulemans..
he played mostly outside of the States.. .but thats b/c his game 3c isnt played here that much



who you calling small fry???? :D
 
I don't see how it's more difficult for US pros than European pros (and I'm American).

There's more money in US tourneys, and in order to play for that cash, Europeans need to travel overseas, and even though by and large Europeans speak good English (even the ones from the UK, if you listen carefully, appear to speak some strange English-sounding dialect ;)), it's still a foreign country with a foreign language and that brings with it the usual inconveniences.

I recall a certain amount of concern among US players about the scheduled IPT tournament in the London. Which, mind you, was going to be one of the best paying tourneys ever, in an English-speaking country, but there were still issues about expenses related to travel etc. I also understand that some US players don't attend WPC, which is the best paying non-IPT tournament, for travel expenses/convenience issues. I don't blame them, but just pointing out it's tough to go to a foreign land and make ends meet.

I for one salute the effort of players from Europe and Asia coming to the US, and I'm happy that my nation can be host to pool at the highest international level. The entire world of professional pool is hurting, and I support those who have put in the effort to rise to the top of their field, regardless of nationality or whatever else.

And I don't feel at all disloyal or unpatriotic about this. Part of what makes the US great is its inclusiveness, and the emphasis on skill and performance over provincial favoritism. When Yao Ming comes to play in the NBA, that makes the NBA and the US basketball scene stronger, not weaker. Same with Beckham. Same way with pool.
 
Jam, some of your viewpoints I agree with, some of them I vehemently disagree with..But, inevitably, when the topic of American vs. european competition is discussed, you become so hostile. Perhaps you dont even realize it, but it comes out so strongly in your posts, at times it's hard to focus on the information contained therin, instead of the tone.

For the record, I too am very pro Amercian pool. I have spent many years supporting pool in the US, and many American players. With that said, though, it is clear to me that the American players have lost their dominace in competitions where there is a diverese international field. Now, in my opinion, there is no rational way to oppose that sentiment, or suggest that americans should be playing in tournaments here in the US with only other Amercians. It would be clear to everyone involved, players, fans and sponsors, what the motivation behind those actions would be. It would only hurt the sport.

To suggest that there be an annual US championship, modeled after the European championships, is a wonderful idea. Ultimately, the winner would get the opportunity to play on the mosconi cup team, and get an invite to both the WPC and the challenge of Champions tournament. I would support an event like this. I would also encourage the same prize fund as the european championships. I think that this would reintroduce the US players with the concept of becoming passionate about the game again, and shifting the focus away from monetary achievement.

for the record, though, i dont think anyone infered that winning the German championships would/should be considered to be the same achievemnt as winning the US open. I think the people who know the structure of both types of events would make the following analogies:

A Euro tour win (100% open event) is similar to winning at turning stone or vally forge, no a regular joss or blaze event. A euro tour event may have 10 world beaters in a field of a few hundred.

A german championship would be similar to UPA tour stop win. Pool is a very serious sport in Germany, and they have a wonderful "feeder" system through their leagues (not like our leagues here) where players learn in clubs with coaches, all trying to make the national team. We have no such "set-up"
here like that. As soon as our young players show any promise, they go off on the road to gamble. Gambling is non exsitenent (as a fair generalization) in most european countries.

a european championship is harder to "handicap". any one of these events would be considered a world class event if the word "european" was removed. Any one of their top players could (and has) win a major championship or world championship. Infact, we dont have an event (other than the US open), held on US soil that I would consider harder to win.

But the most important point is that for the most part, we are not the ones competing. we have people that we are very close with that do, but our main objective should be to support their adventures, and enjoy ourselves while doing so. I respect you and your contributions to this forum, JAM, as well as I do "the One's". With 2 very intelligent posters like yourselves, I know, imo, you too can do better to not press eachother's buttons. It diminishes the forums morale, but more importantly, it subtracts from the overall enjoyemnt that attracted u here in the first place.

rg
 
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@JAM (and who might be interested)

Jam I will try to give a brief overview on how the league system here in Germany works and why the organisations you mentioned can not host a price money tournament.

In Germany there are about 40 thousand organized pool players. They are all members of a club and pay a monthly fee. The clubs take part in the league games. The leagues are organized like this:

district league, county league....state league
etc.. The top teams of each league advance to next higher league. All league matches feature all discipline of pool..So 9 bal / 8 Ball and straight pool are played in each game between two clubs, though to different macht distances or point. This depends on the league you are in. The lower league play shorter races the and vice versa.

This goes all the way up to 1st and 2 Bundesliga which equal a country wide league such as minor league (baseball I suppose) and major league. All the clubs are represented by elected representatives in the according state confederation. All the state confederations elect the governing body of German Billiards (DBU) which is the head and called German Billard Federation.

As for the tournaments there. Besides the league play, each state federations holds qualifiers for their state. The state champions advance to play for the German championships. If you happen to win a German championship, you earn a spot in the European championships and so on. And now the most important part of it:

ALL THE PLAYERS IN THIS SYSTEM DON'T WIN A DIME !!! If you happen to become a German champion and earn a spot for the European Championships, the German Billard Federation will pay you the entry fee for this event and that is basically it... Mayby a small compensation for travel and lodging. Some clubs finance their best player from the fee's they take, to support them a little but this is not much more than gas money or room rates... SO ALL THE PLAYERS BASICALLY PLAY FOR THE HONOR AND MEDALS.
The fees the clubs take from the members are mostly spent to finance table time in pool halls. Some clubs posses their own club houses with 4 to 6 tables... then the money is used to finance the rent of the club etc.

All these organizations are pure amateur sports organizations! The only real professionals from Germay are Hohmann and Soquet. All the others do have sort of regular job or run a business to finance their playing.

So if you are young and eager as a player you join a club. If you are good and become a state champion or you show a lot of talent, you will be recognized and maybe picked for the state team or later the national team. Some clubs also pay trainers to coach the players (payed from the fees) or if you are good enough, you will make the state squad and get training by some of the best trainers. Michael Wahl, the guy how trained Hohmann is also the Hesse State Squad trainer... The national team, is coached by Andreas Huber (known from The PAT System) who is the official national Team Coach. All this is financed by the club fees and the money the clubs pay to the state confederation and they pay to the German Billard Federation. Also the DBU receives money from the German government, based on the successes, which flows the whole way back to the clubs somehow to keep the show running.

Markus
 
NYC cue dude said:
Jam, some of your viewpoints I agree with, some of them I vehemently disagree with...

Everybody has an opinion, and like you, I vehemently disagree with your anti-American opinions on this thread, probably more so than you disagree with my pro-American opinions.

Sometimes your words come off as very pompous, but I have never called you out on it. Rather, there are other contributions to the sport that you have made which I respect.

Of course, German Thorsten Hohmann lived with you at one time, maybe still does, and American Keith McCready lives with me. We come at this topic maybe from two different vantage points.

NYC cue dude said:
...For the record, though, i dont think anyone infered that winning the German championships would/should be considered to be the same achievemnt as winning the US open.

In case you forgot the topic of this thread, it was that Oliver's great championship wins should get him in America's BCA Hall of Fame. Do you remember? I came with the opinion that some of those wins on Oliver's portfolio should not be given the same weight as, for example, the U.S. Open.

NYC cue dude said:
I respect you and your contributions to this forum, JAM, as well as I do "the One's". With 2 very intelligent posters like yourselves, I know, imo, you too can do better to not press eachother's buttons. It diminishes the forums morale, but more importantly, it subtracts from the overall enjoyemnt that attracted u here in the first place.

I don't know, Randy. I have read quite a few defensive posts written by you when you felt you had been insulted. You seemed to emphasize wealth a lot, as if it gave your opinions more credence than others.

It is different when it happens to you, isn't it?

JAM
 
Renegade said:
"Can't we all just get along???" -- willie lumpkin

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. -- Winston Churchill

JAM
 
One day, five blind men decided they wanted to go to the zoo to find out what exactly an elephant looks like. When they got there, they took turns feeling the animal. The first felt the elephant's trunk and thought that an elephant must look like a snake, long and flexible. The second grabbed the elephant's ear and he imagined that elephants looked like giant bats with huge leathery wings. The third guy felt the elephant's side and thought that the elephant must be like a wall, broad and unmoving. Another felt one of the elephant's legs (he was a short dude, aside from being blind) and thought an elephant was probably like a tree trunk, sturdy and cylindrical and rooted firmly on the ground. The last felt the elephant's tail and decided that an elephant was nothing but a smelly, piece of rope. When they got together later that day to compare notes, they found that each was probably stoned or just incredibly stupid. The End.
 
Renegade said:
One day, five blind men decided they wanted to go to the zoo to find out what exactly an elephant looks like. When they got there, they took turns feeling the animal. The first felt the elephant's trunk and thought that an elephant must look like a snake, long and flexible. The second grabbed the elephant's ear and he imagined that elephants looked like giant bats with huge leathery wings. The third guy felt the elephant's side and thought that the elephant must be like a wall, broad and unmoving. Another felt one of the elephant's legs (he was a short dude, aside from being blind) and thought an elephant was probably like a tree trunk, sturdy and cylindrical and rooted firmly on the ground. The last felt the elephant's tail and decided that an elephant was nothing but a smelly, piece of rope. When they got together later that day to compare notes, they found that each was probably stoned or just incredibly stupid. The End.

A woman got on a bus holding a baby. The bus driver said, "That's the ugliest baby I've ever seen."

In a huff, the woman slammed her fare into the fare box and took an aisle seat near the rear of the bus. The man seated next to her sensed that she was agitated and asked her what was wrong. "The bus driver insulted me," she fumed.

The man sympathized with her and said, "Why, he's a public servant and shouldn't say things to insult passengers."

"You're right," she said. "I think I'll go back up there and give him a piece of my mind."

"That's a good idea," the man said. "Here, let me hold your monkey."


JAM
 
Speaking of bus drivers and monkeys, one time I had to go to a restaurant and ordered chicken wings. My shoe laces were untied.

Oh, by the way, I really like Tesla. I think elections are fun.
 
Renegade said:
Speaking of bus drivers and monkeys, one time I had to go to a restaurant and ordered chicken wings. My shoe laces were untied.

Oh, by the way, I really like Tesla. I think elections are fun.

I have come to believe over and over again that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood. -- Audre Lorde

Don't know Telsa, but I really like American buffalos. I think National Powwows are fun: http://www.nmai.si.edu

JAM
 
"a troll is someone who intentionally posts messages about sensitive topics constructed to cause controversy in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET groups in order to bait users into responding."

POST#42
"What may be offensive to me might not be offensive to you. For example, I find it tremendously offensive as a female to see avatars with surgically-implanted breasts on women, whose fake breasts look more like sunny-side-up fried eggs than actual breasts, but I see these type of avatars on this forum quite often. This may not be offensive to some, but it seems to demean women, IMHO, especially women who have REAL BREASTS, to have to look at these odd-shaped deformities representing womenhood." - a clear attack on my avatar, totally unrelated to the thread. - (troll ref1)

POST #114
"Well, that explains a lot about why I was labeled a racist troll by one of your countrymen. I see avatars demeaning women with exposed and deformed surgically-enhanced breasts looking more like soccer pucks than women's breasts on this forum, and I think these photos are offensive to all womenhood, especially to female readers of this forum. Nobody calls these offenders as women abusers, though. Thank you for your opinion and comments. They are very illuminating, to say the least."[/I] - (troll ref2)

POST #122
Was my FIRST post in this thread, I ignored her first troll comment in the interest of the thread so she had another go. This is the 3rd thread in a row that JAM has tried to bait me BEFORE I even posted in it. IMO JAM is the very definition of a TROLL.

In fact this thread perfectly highlights JAMs behavior. Again BEFORE I even entered it she was aggressive to several other posters for seemingly innocuous replies. Also one poster actually publicly stated he was adding JAM to his blacklist for her comments and she continues to attack other posters.

"Europeans are disgusting" - JAM

PS
I wonder how JAM would have reacted if somebody had said "Americans are disgusting?" :rolleyes: I have tried to ignore JAM time and again but there's a limit to how much I will let her get away with.
 
NYC cue dude said:
Jam, some of your viewpoints I agree with, some of them I vehemently disagree with..But, inevitably, when the topic of American vs. european competition is discussed, you become so hostile. Perhaps you dont even realize it, but it comes out so strongly in your posts, at times it's hard to focus on the information contained therin, instead of the tone.

For the record, I too am very pro Amercian pool. I have spent many years supporting pool in the US, and many American players. With that said, though, it is clear to me that the American players have lost their dominace in competitions where there is a diverese international field. Now, in my opinion, there is no rational way to oppose that sentiment, or suggest that americans should be playing in tournaments here in the US with only other Amercians. It would be clear to everyone involved, players, fans and sponsors, what the motivation behind those actions would be. It would only hurt the sport.

To suggest that there be an annual US championship, modeled after the European championships, is a wonderful idea. Ultimately, the winner would get the opportunity to play on the mosconi cup team, and get an invite to both the WPC and the challenge of Champions tournament. I would support an event like this. I would also encourage the same prize fund as the european championships. I think that this would reintroduce the US players with the concept of becoming passionate about the game again, and shifting the focus away from monetary achievement.

for the record, though, i dont think anyone infered that winning the German championships would/should be considered to be the same achievemnt as winning the US open. I think the people who know the structure of both types of events would make the following analogies:

A Euro tour win (100% open event) is similar to winning at turning stone or vally forge, no a regular joss or blaze event. A euro tour event may have 10 world beaters in a field of a few hundred.

A german championship would be similar to UPA tour stop win. Pool is a very serious sport in Germany, and they have a wonderful "feeder" system through their leagues (not like our leagues here) where players learn in clubs with coaches, all trying to make the national team. We have no such "set-up"
here like that. As soon as our young players show any promise, they go off on the road to gamble. Gambling is non exsitenent (as a fair generalization) in most european countries.

a european championship is harder to "handicap". any one of these events would be considered a world class event if the word "european" was removed. Any one of their top players could (and has) win a major championship or world championship. Infact, we dont have an event (other than the US open), held on US soil that I would consider harder to win.

But the most important point is that for the most part, we are not the ones competing. we have people that we are very close with that do, but our main objective should be to support their adventures, and enjoy ourselves while doing so. I respect you and your contributions to this forum, JAM, as well as I do "the One's". With 2 very intelligent posters like yourselves, I know, imo, you too can do better to not press eachother's buttons. It diminishes the forums morale, but more importantly, it subtracts from the overall enjoyemnt that attracted u here in the first place.

rg


That's a good post indeed.
 
TheOne said:
"a troll is someone who intentionally posts messages about sensitive topics constructed to cause controversy in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET groups in order to bait users into responding."

POST#42
"What may be offensive to me might not be offensive to you. For example, I find it tremendously offensive as a female to see avatars with surgically-implanted breasts on women, whose fake breasts look more like sunny-side-up fried eggs than actual breasts, but I see these type of avatars on this forum quite often. This may not be offensive to some, but it seems to demean women, IMHO, especially women who have REAL BREASTS, to have to look at these odd-shaped deformities representing womenhood." - a clear attack on my avatar, totally unrelated to the thread. - (troll ref1)

POST #114
"Well, that explains a lot about why I was labeled a racist troll by one of your countrymen. I see avatars demeaning women with exposed and deformed surgically-enhanced breasts looking more like soccer pucks than women's breasts on this forum, and I think these photos are offensive to all womenhood, especially to female readers of this forum. Nobody calls these offenders as women abusers, though. Thank you for your opinion and comments. They are very illuminating, to say the least."[/I] - (troll ref2)

POST #122
Was my FIRST post in this thread, I ignored her first troll comment in the interest of the thread so she had another go. This is the 3rd thread in a row that JAM has tried to bait me BEFORE I even posted in it. IMO JAM is the very definition of a TROLL.

In fact this thread perfectly highlights JAMs behavior. Again BEFORE I even entered it she was aggressive to several other posters for seemingly innocuous replies. Also one poster actually publicly stated he was adding JAM to his blacklist for her comments and she continues to attack other posters.

"Europeans are disgusting" - JAM

PS
I wonder how JAM would have reacted if somebody had said "Americans are disgusting?" :rolleyes: I have tried to ignore JAM time and again but there's a limit to how much I will let her get away with.

You continue to cut-and-paste my words to suit your own benefit. How much YOU will let ME get away with? Give me a break. I post on this forum, the same as you. Neither one of us any authority. We are members of this forum, with equal standing.

I posted previously, and I still believe, that the European style of play is "disgusting." I do not enjoy watching Buckingham Guard personalities in the pit. I do enjoy a different style of pool and do not like seeing emotionless robots on TV representing pool as a sport, even if these emotionless robots are champions. Pick that opinion apart now. Make sure you highlight it in red and in bold lettering.

I took a hiatus from this forum after you labeled me a racist and, to use your wording, when you "trolled" me ad nauseum with your insults and lies.

If you knew my family and my background, you would understand better why this was very offensive to me. I come on this forum to enjoy pool as well as networking with others. You can continue this negative colloquy if you desire, but I have a limit, too. I will not back down from your insults anymore. You can twist my words all you want. I stand by my opinions.

JAM
 
JAM said:
You continue to cut-and-paste my words to suit your own benefit. How much YOU will let ME get away with? Give me a break. I post on this forum, the same as you. Neither one of us any authority. We are members of this forum, with equal standing.

I posted previously, and I still believe, that the European style of play is "disgusting." I do not enjoy watching Buckingham Guard personalities in the pit. I do enjoy a different style of pool and do not like seeing emotionless robots on TV representing pool as a sport, even if these emotionless robots are champions. Pick that opinion apart now. Make sure you highlight it in red and in bold lettering.

I took a hiatus from this forum after you labeled me a racist and, to use your wording, when you "trolled" me ad nauseum with your insults and lies.

If you knew my family and my background, you would understand better why this was very offensive to me. I come on this forum to enjoy pool as well as networking with others. You can continue this negative colloquy if you desire, but I have a limit, too. I will not back down from your insults anymore. You can twist my words all you want. I stand by my opinions.

JAM

I haven't twisted a thing, YOUR posts are there for all to see I copied them word for word from this thread. You want the first two words AND the last word, not gonna happen.

I tried to ignore you but you just wont leave it alone, even in threads I don't post in. Now do me a favor and listen to the advice and stop trolling me and I will happily ignore you.

Leave race based hate comments and me alone and we won't have a problem.
 
TheOne said:
I haven't twisted a thing, YOUR posts are there for all to see I copied them word for word from this thread. You want the first two words AND the last word, not gonna happen.

I tried to ignore you but you just wont leave it alone, even in threads I don't post in. Now do me a favor and listen to the advice and stop trolling me and I will happily ignore you.

Leave race based hate comments and me alone and we won't have a problem.

Let's get one thing straight, Pal. I post in a lot of threads and don't give a damn what you post about elsewhere, except when you target me. You are TheOne -- [good AzBilliards name] -- who keeps this negativity going.

Do me a favor and get over yourself. I could care less about your contributions to this forum, but when you attack me with lies and untruths, I will not stand by and ignore them.

I have never made race-based hate comments. Yet, you continue to write this rubbish about me. I do not dislike European players, but I do dislike you, and I don't give a damn what nationality you are. Can't wait to see you in person on the tournament trail, so that I can share with you my thoughts.

JAM
 
JAM said:
Let's get one thing straight, Pal. I post in a lot of threads and don't give a damn what you post about elsewhere, except when you target me. You are TheOne -- [good AzBilliards name] -- who keeps this negativity going.

Do me a favor and get over yourself. I could care less about your contributions to this forum, but when you attack me with lies and untruths, I will not stand by and ignore them.

I have never made race-based hate comments. Yet, you continue to write this rubbish about me. I do not dislike European players, but I do dislike you, and I don't give a damn what nationality you are. Can't wait to see you in person on the tournament trail, so that I can share with you my thoughts.

JAM

Are you insane? You posted troll comments aimed at me TWICE on this thread BEFORE I even posted!!!! :rolleyes: You did it in 3 threads before that, LOL I really think you are losing the plot.

You continue to make comments based on race, do you even notice? I'm pleased you are looking forward to meeting me, a person with your limited views on the world doesn't interest me in the slightest.

PS
Thanks for the name compliment, pleased you like it :)
 
Two Men Enter, One Man Leaves!

LADIES & GENTLEMEN...IIIIIIT'S TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME!!!!!

Standing in the octagon to my right, standing 5'7" 130lbs...she is currently a Milletich Fighting Systems Black Belt and a powerful striker. Her AZB record is 14 and 0 and is currently undefeated in the AZB Octagon. She is the "American Patriot" JAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!! *crowd going nuts*

Standing in the octagon to my left, standing 6'0 190lbs...he is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu champion currently studying under Royce Gracie. His AZB record is 14 and 0 and is also undefeated in the AZB Octagon. He is "European Ta Tas" THEEEE OOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!! *crowd going nuts*

Keys to Success:

"American Patriot"
- Excellent Patriotism
- Strong Love for American Players
- Lives with an American Pool Legend


"European Ta Tas"
- Excellent Submissions with use of Quotations
- Lots of European Pool Experience
- Tremendous Insult Defense


*BIG JOHN MCCARTHY*

"Are you ready?!?! Are you ready?!?! LET'S GET IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...
 
TheOne said:
Are you insane? You posted troll comments aimed at me TWICE on this thread BEFORE I even posted!!!! :rolleyes: You did it in 3 threads before that, LOL I really think you are losing the plot.

At least you admit that you are attempting to create a plot. This thread ain't about you, and it's not about me. However, the twists and turns it has taken ends up with this dialogue, one which you seem to take pleasure in.

TheOne said:
You continue to make comments based on race, do you even notice? I'm pleased you are looking forward to meeting me, a person with your limited views on the world doesn't interest me in the slightest.
Oh, you may feel a little differently after I get a chance to speak to you. I won't be limited by these forum rules, and my "limited views" will definitely leave an impression.

TheOne said:
PS
Thanks for the name compliment, pleased you like it :)

It speaks volumes about what you are all about. It's a shame you don't respect women a little more, as evidenced by the vulgar avatars degrading women. Maybe if you exercised a little caution in an effort not to offend others, this colloquy wouldn't be happening.

JAM
 
Last edited:
JAM said:
At least you admit that you are attempting to create a plot. This thread ain't about you, and it's not about me. However, the twists and turns it has taken ends up with this dialogue, one which you seem to take pleasure in.

Nope just defending myself from your attacks in this thread thank you

JAM said:
Oh, you may feel a little differently after I get a chance to speak to you. I won't be limited by these forum rules, and my "limited views" will definitely leave an impression.

Good I got a special salute ready so you can speak to my hand, just need a uniform now :)

JAM said:
It speaks volumes about what you are all about. It's a shame you don't respect women a little more, as evidenced by the vulgar avatars degrading women. Maybe if you exercised a little caution in an effort not to offend others, this colloquy wouldn't be happening.
JAM

See posts above, about YOU attacking my twice first in this thread and two previous threads.

PS
Your women comments just make u look silly, she's a model who posed for the photos and made her own choice to have implants. Come on now admit it, its the British flag on an American forum thats really got your knickers in a twist? :p
 
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