Our Bar Rules and Playing System

Push&Pool said:
I'm aware this forum isn't dedicated to bar pool. First of all, I'm not forcing anyone to play this way, I posted it here for people interested in this topic to read and comment. If someone doesn't want to participate in the discussion or somehow feels offended by talk of bar rules, they don't need to read a single letter. That's why the words "Bar Rules" are in the thread title.

Second, these rules may be "convoluted" comparing to world standardized rules, but they have a long tradition and are used by thousands of players across several countries every day. Sure, there are regional and local differences, but the core of these rules remains the same. The fact is, even serious pool players here use them when playing for fun. It's something basically every pool player learns as they first pick up a cue.

So it isn't something I made up with my friends overnight because "regular" pool was too hard or something. It has long ago become a game of its own in our region, quite different from both the world standardized 8ball, and the US bar 8ball. Yes, we can still play using standard rules, at least some of us who are more invested into pool. But I like the bar version more. Simple personal preference. Not saying one or the other is better, as both have their ups and downs.

To conclude, I advise that none of you treat this just as 8ball played by bad players. There's a large number of very experienced players, both casual and tournament level, who play this way here. Better treat it as a separate pool game, as it's hardly the 8ball you know. Though still, as we said earlier, a good player here is a good player there and vice versa.
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I think it's fair to say, and that you would agree with this, that when you bring a set of rules that are 100% alien to 99% of the people here who read your post, that reaction to it is going to range from outright disbelief to condemnation to sarcasm to total rejection that whatever it is being described could possibly even be considered "pool". All that said, I ( and I know others here as well ) will take at face value your saying these are time-tested rules to a particular mode of pool and are widely accepted in your part of the world as normal.

One of the reasons ( waxing philosophical here for a few seconds ) there is so much conflict on this tiny spec of dust we call home stems from mistrust of people who are not our immediate neighbors. If they don't dress the same, speak the same, walk the same, sing the same songs, like the same sports, etc, etc, ad infinatum, then they are immediately suspect. And, as humans tend to do, we love bolstering our own "place in the sun", as it were, by degrading, disparaging and basically lessening the value of those who are not considered to be "us". And this is not just an American trait. It is universal, sadly enough.

So, as such, I will take this opportunity to apologize for the half-sarcastic, half-mean-spirited comment I made to you earlier ( in response to someone else's remark about your post ) regarding rules, etc. That was rather rude of me and you don't really deserve that, even though I've no idea who you are or what type person you are. But, I am fairly intuitive and I can see from your responses, you are rather even-tempered and fair-minded. And in the present international social climate, there is certainly something to be said for that. I love this stupid game and I, as I am guessing many others here are, am rather protective of what we consider to be the "right" way to go about it. So even though, on second consideration, I felt an apology was appropriate, I speak only for myself and I absolutely understand the sentiment most here voiced upon reading your OP. You seem to be a smart guy, so I'll assume you understand that as well.

Best wishes for a good weekend and countless future hours playing bar pool or poolroom pool or whatever other form of pool you might play going forward.
 
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Michael Andros said:
I think it's fair to say, and that you would agree with this, that when you bring a set of rules that are 100% alien to 99% of the people here who read your post, that reaction to it is going to range from outright disbelief to condemnation to sarcasm to total rejection that whatever it is being described could possibly even be considered "pool". All that said, I ( and I know others here as well ) will take at face value your saying these are time-tested rules to a particular mode of pool and are widely accepted in your part of the world as normal.

One of the reasons ( waxing philosophical here for a few seconds ) there is so much conflict on this tiny spec of dust we call home stems from mistrust of people who are not our immediate neighbors. If they don't dress the same, speak the same, walk the same, sing the same songs, like the same sports, etc, etc, ad infinatum, then they are immediately suspect. And, as humans tend to do, we love bolstering our own "place in the sun", as it were, by degrading, disparaging and basically lessening the value of those who are not considered to be "us". And this is not just an American trait. It is universal, sadly enough.

So, as such, I will take this opportunity to apologize for the half-sarcastic, half-mean-spirited comment I made to you earlier ( in response to someone else's remark about your post ) regarding rules, etc. That was rather rude of me and you don't really deserve that, even though I've no idea who you are or what type person you are. But, I am fairly intuitive and I can see from your responses, you are rather even-tempered and fair-minded. And in the present international social climate, there is certainly something to be said for that. I love this stupid game and I, as I am guessing many others here are, am rather protective of what we consider to be the "right" way to go about it. So even though, on second consideration, I felt an apology was appropriate, I speak only for myself and I absolutely understand the sentiment most here voiced upon reading your OP. You seem to be a smart guy, so I'll assume you understand that as well.

Best wishes for a good weekend and countless future hours playing bar pool or poolroom pool or whatever other form of pool you might play going forward.
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Thank you for the apology, though to be completely honest, I didn't get mad at you or anyone else here :) A few harsh words are quite common on forums, and I used to be guilty of using them myself quite a few times when I was younger. It's ok to be protective of the way you play pool, as I feel proud and protective of the game we developed here. But I have nothing against standardized 8ball and I want you and everyone else to continue enjoying it as much as you already do. Our bar pool is simply my personal preference and tradition. But who knows? Maybe I'll one day switch over to standardized pool. For now I'll stay where I am :)

Best wishes to you as well and enjoy the rest of the weekend.
 
Push&Pool said:
Thank you for the apology, though to be completely honest, I didn't get mad at you or anyone else here :) A few harsh words are quite common on forums, and I used to be guilty of using them myself quite a few times when I was younger. It's ok to be protective of the way you play pool, as I feel proud and protective of the game we developed here. But I have nothing against standardized 8ball and I want you and everyone else to continue enjoying it as much as you already do. Our bar pool is simply my personal preference and tradition. But who knows? Maybe I'll one day switch over to standardized pool. For now I'll stay where I am :)

Best wishes to you as well and enjoy the rest of the weekend.
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I’m one of the posters who expresses disgust at your rules...
...you personally?....hell, I might buy you a beer.

Do you know why a full house beats a flush at poker?..the math says the flush is easier to get.
Do you know why a flush beats a full house at short deck poker?....math, again

So I thoroughly dislike rules that scoff at reason...
...in your rules, you can gain a winning advantage from a foul shot....

....and your 8 on the break rule with another ball that makes it a loss...
...penalizes the best breaker.

So bragging about a set of rules that got to the pool hall on a short bus is disgusting.
 
pt109 said:
I’m one of the posters who expresses disgust at your rules...
...you personally?....hell, I might buy you a beer.

Do you know why a full house beats a flush at poker?..the math says the flush is easier to get.
Do you know why a flush beats a full house at short deck poker?....math, again

So I thoroughly dislike rules that scoff at reason...
...in your rules, you can gain a winning advantage from a foul shot....

....and your 8 on the break rule with another ball that makes it a loss...
...penalizes the best breaker.

So bragging about a set of rules that got to the pool hall on a short bus is disgusting.
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The only thing disgusting in this thread has been the reaction of the haters.

I appreciate that the OP has shared this. I find it interesting. It's only a game, after all, and this is where new game variants come from. Is one pocket disgusting? Nine on the spot nine-ball? Geez. It apparently works for them, and is fun.
 
I've played most cue sports around the world. Of the major ones, I'd say the only ones I've never tried are Pyramid or Kaisa (finnish game played on a similar table to Pyramid). I've also tried pretty much every version of 8 ball there is. Every conceivable variation of US 8 ball, Chinese 8 ball and UK pool (blackball and world rules) and of course lots of bar pool variants. I've played competitively on high levels, as well as casually in bars, and I enjoy both.

I'd have to say, the best rule set is in Blackball by far. Blackball does not have call shot, not even for the 8 ball. It has a special rule when you are snookered, which means you don't have to contact a rail after hitting Your ball, which sounds stupid, but is actually a very Nice way to add skill (believe it or not). If you watch online, you'll hear the players or referee call out "total snooker" when this is the case.

It also does not have traditional ball in hand. If Your opponent fouls, you can choose to play from where the ball lies or take ball in hand in balk. You can shoot at balls in balk (behind the line) as well as outside in whatever direction you please. A foul by the opponent will earn you a so called second visit (in addition), which means that your first shot is a "free" shot ,that still must be a legal shot (hit a rail) but you don't have to pocket anything. This is a very interesting and skillfull test of strategy and creativity. The great players often accomplish many Things With this one shot, breaking out multiple clusters etc, or just put their opponents balls safe.

There is also something called a "skill shot" where you Pocket Your own ball as well as one of your opponents'. Pocketing your opponents ball without pocketing one of your own is a foul.

If you (the OP) ever get a chance, try Blackball. It offers many of the Things you like, but is more balanced than the normal bar rules. Watch some games online to see what I mean. It really is the Chess of 8 ball pool. The UK pool variant called "'World rules" is a lot more defensive minded and perhaps more Strategic, but IMO can get a bit too defensive, With lots of blocking pockets and the like. The blackball rules were invented to reward aggressive and creative play that keeps games moving. I realize that it is played on a different table than you may have in Your pub, but maybe you can still test those rules on a US table? If you're ever in the UK or a British style pub, try the Blackball game.
 
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Existing rules evolved the way they did for good reasons - it's highly unlikely that any newly made up rule set can be as good. The most important feature of any rule set is also the most difficult to reinvent - simplicity and brevity. In rules, less is more.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Existing rules evolved the way they did for good reasons - it's highly unlikely that any newly made up rule set can be as good. The most important feature of any rule set is also the most difficult to reinvent - simplicity and brevity. In rules, less is more.

pj
chgo
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I disagree. Pool has been around for a long, long time. Yet new, interesting games have been invented in (some) of our lifetimes, like one pocket. Who's to say that a new and better rule set for eight ball, or a new game, entirely, won't emerge?
 
jviss said:
The only thing disgusting in this thread has been the reaction of the haters.

I appreciate that the OP has shared this. I find it interesting. It's only a game, after all, and this is where new game variants come from. Is one pocket disgusting? Nine on the spot nine-ball? Geez. It apparently works for them, and is fun.
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Try using your same logic on my post....just a bunch of words, right?
 
pt109 said:
Try using your same logic on my post....just a bunch of words, right?
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I honestly don't know what you're talking about, what "try using your same logic on my post" means. Can you please elaborate?
 
jeephawk said:
As a much younger lad, playing 8 ball in a bar just barely underage with a friend (two person teams) against a couple of pretty intimidating fellows I made the 8 ball to win the game. Not so fast - we were informed we lost because the 8 ball was required to be made in the pocket of our last pocketed ball and we, not they, needed to pay up the $5 at stake, lol. The situation resolved with a gentlemen interceding, suggesting we were too young to be in there and (with a wink to us) "get the _____ out boys." True story, and learned to ask about the rules up front, lol - even in places in college we played a lot when guys we didn't know were putting in their quarters. Fun stuff, and that's the rowdiest pool story of my life! Nothing compared with the real ones for sure.
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I was gambling 20/game with a guy in Chicago. Table had a sign that says “House Rules: no last pocket”. So naturally we agree to play last pocket. So I bank the 8-ball to my pocket and leave it in the jaws. He had a different pocket so good shot right? He calls it and quickly shoots it straight in the hole. I object and he points to the sign and says: “no last pocket.” Live and learn.
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I'd have to say, the best rule set is in Blackball by far. Blackball does not have call shot, not even for the 8 ball. It has a special rule when you are snookered, which means you don't have to contact a rail after hitting Your ball, which sounds stupid, but is actually a very Nice way to add skill (believe it or not). If you watch online, you'll hear the players or referee call out "total snooker" when this is the case.
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English pool rules have evolved to take the game closer to its roots (America pool) with having to hit a rail, frozen ball rules, the “skillshot” etc. I would agree that Blackball is indeed by far the best set of widely played English pool rules. Actually, I think Supreme rules or even WPA rules (with easily available smaller solids and stripes) are even better - but Blackball certainly does offer some unique strategic thinking and, as you say, creativity. The total snooker rule is a good one but I think it should apply only when you come to the table and your opponent has snookered you. Unfortunately, and I see this as a deficiency that should lead to further evolution of the rules, if you run out of position and put yourself in a total snooker then you don’t have to make a ball contact a rail - this just seems wrong to me.
 
pt109 said:
I’m one of the posters who expresses disgust at your rules...
...you personally?....hell, I might buy you a beer.

Do you know why a full house beats a flush at poker?..the math says the flush is easier to get.
Do you know why a flush beats a full house at short deck poker?....math, again

So I thoroughly dislike rules that scoff at reason...
...in your rules, you can gain a winning advantage from a foul shot....

....and your 8 on the break rule with another ball that makes it a loss...
...penalizes the best breaker.

So bragging about a set of rules that got to the pool hall on a short bus is disgusting.
Click to expand...

That's the beauty of this game. Yes, scratching is a foul, but in certain situations it's also a tool. It allows for great defensive games, and sometimes it can turn the tide completely, like when the opponent keeps shooting the 8 at their pocket and you're forced to defend. If the opponent leaves you a chance to place the 8 in the kitchen and scratch at the same time, you've virtually made sure they're the one with only a low-percentage shot available when their turn comes up. And if you don't want to risk pocketing the 8 on the break along with something else, then you choose a safer angle on the break shot, where the 8 is unlikely to end up near a pocket in the first place.

jviss said:
The only thing disgusting in this thread has been the reaction of the haters.

I appreciate that the OP has shared this. I find it interesting. It's only a game, after all, and this is where new game variants come from. Is one pocket disgusting? Nine on the spot nine-ball? Geez. It apparently works for them, and is fun.
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I'm really glad you enjoyed the thread :smile:

Straightpool_99 said:
I've played most cue sports around the world. Of the major ones, I'd say the only ones I've never tried are Pyramid or Kaisa (finnish game played on a similar table to Pyramid). I've also tried pretty much every version of 8 ball there is. Every conceivable variation of US 8 ball, Chinese 8 ball and UK pool (blackball and world rules) and of course lots of bar pool variants. I've played competitively on high levels, as well as casually in bars, and I enjoy both.

I'd have to say, the best rule set is in Blackball by far. Blackball does not have call shot, not even for the 8 ball. It has a special rule when you are snookered, which means you don't have to contact a rail after hitting Your ball, which sounds stupid, but is actually a very Nice way to add skill (believe it or not). If you watch online, you'll hear the players or referee call out "total snooker" when this is the case.

It also does not have traditional ball in hand. If Your opponent fouls, you can choose to play from where the ball lies or take ball in hand in balk. You can shoot at balls in balk (behind the line) as well as outside in whatever direction you please. A foul by the opponent will earn you a so called second visit (in addition), which means that your first shot is a "free" shot ,that still must be a legal shot (hit a rail) but you don't have to pocket anything. This is a very interesting and skillfull test of strategy and creativity. The great players often accomplish many Things With this one shot, breaking out multiple clusters etc, or just put their opponents balls safe.

There is also something called a "skill shot" where you Pocket Your own ball as well as one of your opponents'. Pocketing your opponents ball without pocketing one of your own is a foul.

If you (the OP) ever get a chance, try Blackball. It offers many of the Things you like, but is more balanced than the normal bar rules. Watch some games online to see what I mean. It really is the Chess of 8 ball pool. The UK pool variant called "'World rules" is a lot more defensive minded and perhaps more Strategic, but IMO can get a bit too defensive, With lots of blocking pockets and the like. The blackball rules were invented to reward aggressive and creative play that keeps games moving. I realize that it is played on a different table than you may have in Your pub, but maybe you can still test those rules on a US table? If you're ever in the UK or a British style pub, try the Blackball game.
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This game sounds like something I would certainly enjoy, but like you said, we don't have the necessary equipment here for that. However, if I end up in the UK, I'll try it out. Thanks for the suggestion. And it must have been great to have played so many different pool games and variations. I haven't tried out nearly as much. Still, we like to switch it up from time to time, play, for example, 9ball, 10ball, 15ball, or 8ball using standardized rules. It's fun and it broadens your perspective.
 
Push&Pool said:
This game sounds like something I would certainly enjoy, but like you said, we don't have the necessary equipment here for that.
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You do. If you have a pool table, 7 balls of one group, 7 balls of a second group and an 8 Ball then you have the equipment.
 
Bob Jewett said:
You will have to ask the owner of it. It is not mine. It is the "product" of the OP.
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jviss said:
Oh, gotcha, thanks.
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If that OP you mentioned is supposed to be me, I have nothing to do with that link you posted. I never figured out why some people think that stuff is mine. I skipped through it a long time ago when someone posted the same link, and I couldn't figure out the terminology used. Anyway, this thing keeps popping up, so I'll politely ask anyone who for whatever reason posts it in some of my threads to stop doing that, as I'm not the one who wrote it.
 
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