Our Pool Subculture-----Deceptive To Us and the Outside World

[CocoboloCowboy]

You get a GREENIE!

Due to the recent Grady thread, I have taken a moment to reflect on the world as we know it as poolplayers. I'd venture that most on here are pretty decent players. But pool, gambling, APA, ranked tournaments, and all of the "let's call them actions" that take place in the poolroom are based greatly on deception in my opinion.

Think about it. Matching up, laying down (whether APA, or gambling, or tourney), telling "pool fibs" to get ranked, blatantly lying while out of town, etc. etc. Out whole subculture is based on deception, for the most part. I guess there are so many scams and deceptions in the pool world that "non-players" see and absorb all of it. Thus, we have made our own bed.

It's like the moment I walk through the door of a poolroom, I flip a switch. We all wear a different personna. When I'm outside of the poolroom, I much more compassionate, caring, helpful and not so "on edge watching for the angle." After walking through the door, I am creating an edge and watching out for the edge on me. It's just weird how different the two worlds are. Not too long ago, I stopped in to see if my friend was hitting balls. Just so happened, I was in a suit, which I wear about half of the time in my biz. First comment I hear, "Court today?" I just laughed, but it amused me. 95 % of the people know absolutely nothing but what they see in the poolroom about the people there. It's really weird to even see someone from the poolroom in a restaurant or at the movies.

Is it just me? Or... are most of you similar in this? Almost two different personalities?

Grady's thread kind of rekindled why I believe it's so hard to make money in pool and noone trusts players enough to dump money into sponsorship. Most of the sport is what I call in "deception mode."

I have also picked up things in the poolroom that have helped me in the outside world. So, I'm not saying it's bad. I just feel that most people are different once walking through the door. And, others see us as deceptive. Just think of the connotation of "hustler", "pool shark". I know the way I see the pool world as opposed to work world. Very rarely would I bring up a gambling story to a physician that is remodeling a million dollar home with me. Make sense? Just a little food for thought.

Oh, and yes. I've done my share of the deceptive tactics. I won't wear white to this wedding.

Very good post I wish I could give you more GREENIES! Than JUST UNO!:bow-down: Others too got GREENIES in this thread who also add thing positive about the Pool subculture!

 

[JoeW]

How do explain the mild mannered person who turns out to be a psychopathic mass murderer? People lead double lives all the time where they are literally two people who are completely opposite.

Is it so far fetched to think that that the guy who is a quiet bookkeeper in his day job can turn into a loud and barking action hound at night? Why can't we all have a little schizophrenia in us that allows us to "let go" and be someone else when we are in a place where we can be that someone else?

I think from an academic point of view the pool room is worthy of study due to it's inherent mixing of life's strata. But I would take your bet and I predict you would lose it if we picked a percentage to bet on of people who are fairly different in the pool room. Remember in the poolroom it's not the CEO of Citibank who holds the power. It's Sleepy Freddy who just came off a road trip and everyone wants to know how he did.

You are a little confused with the terms you freely use. So I’ll clarify just a little primarily to illustrate my point.

The psychopath is a particular clinical entity it begins to express itself when children begin school about the age of 6. It carries through most of one’s life until they burn out someplace in their 40s. These people cannot keep to the usual social standards no matter where they find themselves for more than a few months. Some are in prison but the more intelligent ones can be found in any walk of life. They are not particularly violent unless someone frustrates the goals they seek.

The mild mannered mass murderer comes in several varieties and is most often referred to as the over controlled hostile. He too has had that seething anger from a fairly young age. Though he is often able to mask it for long periods of time, even years. When we dig into his life we find secret rooms with something like Nazi paraphernalia and a fascination with violence in any of many forms. He knows his anger is not socially acceptable and may take on other roles that make him acceptable to others. It is when he blows and we go back in his life that we find all of the hatred and anger that are consistent throughout his life.

The real or chronic Schizophrenic is a biological problem that begins to express it self in late adolescence or early adulthood and these people are usually perceived as odd or different by those around them. Other forms of schizophrenia are usually induced by severe stress.

So while you have confused the terms a little the type of people you chose to use all have a long term consistency in their history.

More to the point, I think that if you look through your own life you will come to the realization that you have been doing basically the same thing for most of your life. If you are an “organizer” you organized your room as a kid. You helped to organize your sports team in adolescence, and as an adult you have selected an occupation that allows you to do what you are good at and what you like to do. Seems in all of your life you have been doing the same thing. It is just that some people don’t realize it. Oh – at the pool hall you are the guy who sets up the weekly tournament and helps to make it a good time for everyone else.

BTW if life forced you to become a roofer and did not allow you to select your preferred style then you are a highly organized roofer for yourself and others. Often without thinking about it we turn our vocation into who we really are.

Sure we can all play roles and assume different identities as needed or because of the pressure of circumstance. Given the opportunity and the freedom you and I and nearly everyone else take on the roles that we like best and the one at which we are usually better than others. There is nothing wrong with this it is just unfortunate that most people don’t realize it and use their natural talents, gifts, and preferences to make their own lives better. You see when you are doing what you like and what you are good at you usually do it better than most others and there is value in that for yourself and others.

 

[Mr. Bond]

Our whole subculture is based on deception?**

I'm a little bit taken back (and slightly offended) by that extremely broad blanket statement, as if you had been asked to speak for billiard players everywhere.

Maybe you. But not me. Nor anyone I play with.

We chose the opposite approach: You are who you are. You shoot what you shoot. And it's never about the money.

That said, I do understand "playing the game". Its all around us in the business world. People lie. People deceive. And the world goes round and round. But when I have a choice, like when I'm at a billiard table, I leave the disgusting habits of the business world where they belong.

I find playing billiard games to be one of the most honest things there is. Its like having to draw a picture. You could lie about it before you started, claiming to be the next Picasso. But when its all said and done, your true ability will be seen. And if you lied, it just makes you look that much more stupid. Why?

Sure, "put your game face on", but don't ruin it for everyone. The reputation of billiards has suffered enough over the decades. Dont be one of those people that takes us back to the stone age.

**The words: "Our whole subculture.." have since been edited from the original post. Unless you knew that, this response wouldn't make much sense now would it.

 

[JoeW]

I tend to agree with Mr Bond. What I like about the pool hall is the honesty of being accepted for what you do, not what you say. The world and its requirements for me to be husband, father, or representative of my profession are all swept away in a world where action speaks far louder than words.

The hustlers in life and in the pool hall have very little appeal for me. Life is full of hustlers and I prefer the "put up or shut up" atmosphere found in a good pool hall with good friends.

 

[manwon]

There is definitely a subculture. In the modern pool room you have the bangers who don't have a clue really, the league players who mostly don't have a clue, and the real players who make up the subculture.

Of course now a lot of players also get on league teams but when there they often times can't stand it having to fade the general cluelessness about "real" pool.

The people who really are immersed in the pool room culture do act differently when in the pool room. We have our own language, we have our own signs, we have our own ways to define the pecking order.

As Craig said people show up in the poolroom and they check their "real life" at the door. The talk about matching up and who beat who and who can beat beat who and who needs the six and who gave 10/8 9/8, who snapped who off, they make proposition bets, get in ring games, and generally have a great time barking and woofing at each other. It's a place to leave the "real world" behind.

I think on AZ there are those of us who get what Crawfish is saying 100% because we lived it. And it's not that we are all hustlers. We just know the real 'pool' side of the pool room. Kind of like those rooms which have one side set up with 5" pockets for the bangers and the other side set up with 4.5" pockets and one trap table with 4 1/8" pockets for one pocket. In those rooms you will almost never see one of the 'players' on the banger's side. It's understood that we are to leave the lambs alone.

We who are members of the subculture know each other immediately when we start talking so all pool rooms which have any players at all feels like home. A lot of us travel and we know when we walk in a place that's not a player's room. We sit around bored praying for anyone who is a player to walk in so we can get the lowdown on the scene in that place/town.

People who haven't really eve immersed themselves in the type of culture that Crawfish is talking about can't understand it. Which is why some of the people on this board confuse it with hustling. It's not about hustling. It's about being part of a private group and constantly jostling for position in that group by being funnier with the barking, showing heart and gamble and not being a nit.

That is how I see it at least.

Nice post John, I totally agree with your thoughts on this subject and things haven't changed that much since I was just another face on the rail back in the 70's. I also doubt that this part of our subculture will ever change completely, there will always be those rooms who have a pecking order like we had in the old days. This is what first attracted me to pool and this is also why I have chosen to do what I do today, the only difference is how my money is spent and made doing what I truly love to do.

Take Care

 

[JB Cases]

But it's not always as simple as "put up or shut up" in the poolroom. That's the sub culture that Crawfish is referring to. It is the jockeying for position, the barking, trying to get the edge through banter and (mostly) good natured ribbing and insults.

It's not that everyone in the pool room is TRYING to hustle each other but they don't want to give their money away either. In a sense everyone is just trying to get the most pool for their money, to get a game that gets the blood going and feels exciting. And sure there are the diehards and the guys who ARE there to see who they can trap but every newbie gets trapped by them once or twice and then he learns.

And Joe, I defer to your explanation and concur that my use of clinical terms without understand the proper use was out of line. Still though I have to mildly diasgree that everyone plays the same roles in the pool room as they do in life - IN REGARDS to the particular subculture of "players" that I am referring to.

 

[pocketspeed]

so what i am getting from this thread is that the "subculture" of pool is actually broken down into "sub sub cultures"

1. the player who totally changes his persona inside the poolroom, acts in ways he never would in the "real" world and is all about the action, looking for the edge, the angle to work and that may actually be more important and satisfying to him than actually shooting pool.

2. the player who does not change his persona, basically the same inside and outsite the room, doesnt care about the gambling, is not busy looking to make a game. he is in the poolroom to shot some pool and just shoot pool.

or would players from sub subculture 1 say that players from sub subculture 2 arent really part of the pool subculture at all?

brian

 

[JB Cases]

so what i am getting from this thread is that the "subculture" of pool is actually broken down into "sub sub cultures"

1. the player who totally changes his persona inside the poolroom, acts in ways he never would in the "real" world and is all about the action, looking for the edge, the angle to work and that may actually be more important and satisfying to him than actually shooting pool.

2. the player who does not change his persona, basically the same inside and outsite the room, doesnt care about the gambling, is not busy looking to make a game. he is in the poolroom to shot some pool and just shoot pool.

or would players from sub subculture 1 say that players from sub subculture 2 arent really part of the pool subculture at all?

brian

The way I see it is that group 1 isn't really interested in group 2. Group 1 is about shooting pool but they are about being part of the scene much more. Playing pool just for the fun of it, for the recreation and personal challenge isn't enough. You have to defend your spot and get better so you can move up the food chain. No food chain means no excitement for group one.

Group 2 isn't a culture at all to me. The guy who loves to just shoot pool for the sport of it without being part of the group of players and gamblers could get his same satisfaction if he played chess, raquetball, did model trains, etc... In other words it's a hobby and may even be an obsession but it's not a way of life.

In my eyes the world Crawfish and I are talking about is a way of life. Anything we do outside the pool room is just because we have to in order to get back to the life we really love to live.

 

[LAMas]

Hollywood Jack POV

"...Jack flourished in the LA pool scene in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. It was an action-charged world peopled with characters like Cuban Joe, Fat Bill, Sleepy Bob, Harry the Hook, Magic Man, and Shakey Red. Jack would often partner up with Marvin Henderson or Ronnie Allen in trying to trap the many road players who showed up in LA. When Jack was at Chopsticks, a pool hall in Burbank, he presided over a bunch of young up-and-comers like Cole Dickson, Keith McCready, Ritchie Florence, and Allen Gilbert.

Jack was a lady’s man and always took Saturdays off from the gambling routine to go to the many dance halls that proliferated in LA in those days. He often made forays to Las Vegas with card players like “The Nutty Professor,” a wealthy UCLA Professor who wasn’t afraid to drop (or win) $250 grand on occasion. In fact, during the late 1970s as pool action started drying up, Jack turned more and more to cards as his mainstay.

Jack always encouraged beginning pool players. Some of LA’s better One Pocket players like “Canadian” Wayne first learned their moves from him. One of Jack’s greatest talents was stirring up action. It was said of him that “Jack could get the Pope to gamble.” Yet he never denigrated the non-gamblers. When others were knocking guys for not playing for real money, Jack would tell them: “Leave him alone – let him play – he just loves the game.” Jack himself loved pool so much that everyday when he woke up he was so anxious to get down to the pool hall he would run out the door before properly drying himself from the shower." ...

http://www.onepocket.org/HollywoodJack.htm

 

[pocketspeed]

The way I see it is that group 1 isn't really interested in group 2. Group 1 is about shooting pool but they are about being part of the scene much more. Playing pool just for the fun of it, for the recreation and personal challenge isn't enough. You have to defend your spot and get better so you can move up the food chain. No food chain means no excitement for group one.

Group 2 isn't a culture at all to me. The guy who loves to just shoot pool for the sport of it without being part of the group of players and gamblers could get his same satisfaction if he played chess, raquetball, did model trains, etc... In other words it's a hobby and may even be an obsession but it's not a way of life.

In my eyes the world Crawfish and I are talking about is a way of life. Anything we do outside the pool room is just because we have to in order to get back to the life we really love to live.

JB just curious here. if you took most poolrooms and subtracted the bangers which group would you say there are more of? and does the fact that you think that the players from the second group are not really a subculture at all (despite the fact that they love the game, spend lots of money and time on it and even mould theirs lives around the love of the game) make them less as players in your eyes?

brian

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

What about league and tournament players who don't gamble.

 

[Gmanpoke]

The way I see it is that group 1 isn't really interested in group 2. Group 1 is about shooting pool but they are about being part of the scene much more. Playing pool just for the fun of it, for the recreation and personal challenge isn't enough. You have to defend your spot and get better so you can move up the food chain. No food chain means no excitement for group one.

Group 2 isn't a culture at all to me. The guy who loves to just shoot pool for the sport of it without being part of the group of players and gamblers could get his same satisfaction if he played chess, raquetball, did model trains, etc... In other words it's a hobby and may even be an obsession but it's not a way of life.

In my eyes the world Crawfish and I are talking about is a way of life. Anything we do outside the pool room is just because we have to in order to get back to the life we really love to live.

This is the way I see it. Great post.

 

[JoeyA]

Craw, I have never been deceptive in the pool room or out. It would be out of character for me. :angel2:

However since you have been doing so well in the flooring business, I have to ask: "When are you going to give me my needed weight, you know, the call 6 and the break on the bar box and how much are we going to play for?".

 

[JoeW]

But it's not always as simple as "put up or shut up" in the poolroom. That's the sub culture that Crawfish is referring to. It is the jockeying for position, the barking, trying to get the edge through banter and (mostly) good natured ribbing and insults.

It's not that everyone in the pool room is TRYING to hustle each other but they don't want to give their money away either. In a sense everyone is just trying to get the most pool for their money, to get a game that gets the blood going and feels exciting. And sure there are the diehards and the guys who ARE there to see who they can trap but every newbie gets trapped by them once or twice and then he learns.

And Joe, I defer to your explanation and concur that my use of clinical terms without understand the proper use was out of line. Still though I have to mildly diasgree that everyone plays the same roles in the pool room as they do in life - IN REGARDS to the particular subculture of "players" that I am referring to.

John I suspect that what you are referring to is the “gambler” as a life style. In this case a person who prefers the social atmosphere of the pool hall. I have not studied a large enough sample of these people to come to any solid conclusion but I would bet (pun intended) that they gamble as you describe throughout their lives. They may open a pizza place later in life but they have the same style of laying it all on the line at some point. Their home is the pool room and they attempt to bring this life style to the rest of their lives.

I think this is indeed one of several styles that can be found in the pool hall. I know several people like the ones you describe and in my opinion they do fit this description. They are always looking to hustle though it may take other forms outside the hall.

With sufficient battering we do change our styles in life, not much but to the extent needed. That is why they call it rehabilitation in the prison system. None-the-less most of us maintain that role we have selected. I suspect, not sure but it is pretty good bet, that you are describing is the person whose home is one variant of the gambling sub-culture.

Like any sub-culture there are those who are primarily entrenched in it, those who are half in (so to speak) and visitors who enjoy that action. For example, some business people hang with members of organized crime. They may not be consistent criminals but they may, under the right circumstances, break the law as well. Their admiration and preference for the criminal life style can get them into trouble.

I think you would agree that the pool hall gambler, as one of many characters in the hall, is but one variant of the gambler life style when you remember the stories we have all heard about the silly things they gamble on such as who can spit the farthest or the exact time someone walks in the door. Life for these people is about gambling. Pool is merely the vehicle.

Perhaps one of the roles I should have included in my ad hoc list is the gambler.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

What about league and tournament players who don't gamble.

Some people choose to gamble, some don't. Not Gambling is not a crime. Not paying off a a Gambling Debt IMHO is a CRIME. As two people made a VERBAL CONTRACT!

 

[JoeW]

BTW one of the elements of the gambler’s life style is the idea that they usually wind up broke at the end of their life. Seems they can’t quit when they are ahead as they have that insatiable need for the adrenaline rush that comes from gambling and of course the addictive nature of the life style leads them to continually put more and more of it on the line far too often. They may be good at what they do, pool, cards, or dice but they wind up gambling until they are broke and usually broken in life. I think this is why some of the greats in this pool hall sub-culture wound up with less than they could have had in life given their skills.

My bet is the pool hall gambler is also found at the track, in a card game and most any place he can live his life on the line. If he goes into business he does the same thing and may or not be successful. It depends on the bet. For some, probably a very few, they come to the realization that there are better ways to live and return to the pool hall where they have better control of the outcome. But they are still a gambler in life only now they have learned to control it to some extent. Their real persona is the gambler and the other areas of their life are in support of this life style.

But then there are the Jim Rempe’s, Alan Hopkins, and Steve Mizeraks who seem to be able to walk that line.

So in my thinking it is not really about pool, except as a favored vehicle, it is about gambling and it can be seen in other areas of their life.

 

[JoeW]

I see nothing wrong with gambling either. But then I see nothing particularly wrong with recreational drugs, prostitution and playing golf or tennis. Some things are just more dangerous than others and often lead to bad outcomes that one might want to avoid.

 

[jersey jer]

HMMM... is it that the "person" you are in the pool hall is the person you really are, and the rest of life is putting on a mask? or vice versa ? I dont know if i really think its either. I think you are the totality of all those personas. you act one way to get that job. you may act differently once you've been at that job for a bit . You act a certain way to meet a woman, ie you wont fart in front oof her while dating but you'll give your wife a dutch oven. if you will actually hustle someone on a pool table that cant afford it dont deserve it you are probablly the person that will stab someone in the back at work to make a buck too. even though you are quiet there, think you act differently there, you might not have yet just because the opportunity hasnt presented itself. its not that your hiding that exactly, its just part of that "TOTAL" persona. if you have it in you it will come out now again in other aspects of your life.

 

[JB Cases]

JB just curious here. if you took most poolrooms and subtracted the bangers which group would you say there are more of? and does the fact that you think that the players from the second group are not really a subculture at all (despite the fact that they love the game, spend lots of money and time on it and even mould theirs lives around the love of the game) make them less as players in your eyes?

brian

No one is less than anyone else. This certainly isn't a thread about who spends more money. That's no contest, the hobby players and league players are what keeps pool alive in the USA. Every pool room owner knows he will go broke if he had to depend on the gamblers.

In most pool rooms I'd say that the hobby/league players far outnumber the match-up players. The match-up players in any room are usually a small group who all know each other and they usually know the players from other rooms and a couple cities down the road.

And no, I don't consider the hobby/league player to be a subculture. To me, and I am sure Joe will correct me if I am wrong, a sub-culture has it's own language and it's own rules. League players don't speak that language amongst themselves, nor do the hobby players. At least that's my experience from being on league teams all over the world.

Even in Germany where pool is treated much more like a sport than here there is separation from the 'real' players and the hobby/league players. And I use 'real' here as someone from that group would define themselves. Of course there are plenty of pure hobby/league players in the world who can play lights out and can handle themselves just fine in given match when it's a league game or just for sport.

Those players are perfectly content to just play their best game for the fun and sport of it and they feel pressure and get their rush doing that. These are however the players who ARE the same people inside and outside the pool room.

 

[JB Cases]

Joe, I can only speak for myself and several of my friends. There are those of us who do not gamble on anything but pool. We are not at the track, we don't play cards, we go to the pool room to hang out with the players and match-up.

I know that you really want to to make the case that people are no different outside the pool room but I assure you that there are plenty of people who hold days jobs where they are completely different people as compared to when they are hanging out at the pool room.

I can only speak from life experience over 25 years of dealing with people from the pool room. I have know Air Force and Army officers, NCOs, and enlisted men, who are straight and narrow on the job and loud, funny and boistereous action hounds in the pool room. I have known bankers and welders and mechanics and window salesmen who are as pleasant and quiet as can be dealing with the public and yet they can be as funny as a stand-up comic when barking in the poolroom.

These people are not taking risks in their lives. They are not gambling it all on the pizza place. They just live double lives and give themselves the freedom to cut loose when they are in the pool room among the same kind of people.

Are there degenerates among them? Of course there are. ONe of my friends is a successful insurance agent with a thriving practice. He had a couple months though where he was only booking losers and when we caught up shortly therafter I tried to match up with him and he told me he had to quit gambling for a while and focus on work.

I am one such person in that I'd rather be in the pool room than anywhere else. I have skipped meetings and important family things to stay where I wanted to be. However when I get out of the pool room I can put on the suit and be the representative of the company that I am supposed to be. I enter that culture and speak corparatespeak when needed.

I suspect that this is how a lot of us get through life. Not all of us certainly, but those of us who spent a good amount of our nights cruising poolrooms for action (there's a gay reference for you Freudians) know what it means to be one person with a cue in your hands and another person with a pen.