out of position, what do you do?

Njhustler1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
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i got out of position on my break shot in a match last night and wasnt sure which was the best safety to play.

is it option A where you make the object ball in the corner and just let the cue ball drift to the side rail, come off just a little, then do the safety where you shoot the cueball into the middle of the side of the pack and spread out the other side of the pack.

or is it option B where you call a safe, make the object ball in the corner pocket and bring the cueball back to the middle of the head rail area

????
 

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I say shoot Ball A and go to the side rail and out a little. Gaining 1 Point, then play a safe freezing the cueball to the side of the rack with a few loose balls loose on the other side of the rack and underneath by hitting the 2 or 3rd ball on the side of the rack. its tougher for your opponent to defend it.

I find its better to hit the second ball from the bottom, there are fewer balls to absorb the impact of the cueball and easier to get one of them to ht a rail after contacting the rack.

Hope this helps, and i hope i dont play you now that you know one of the tricks !

-Steve
 
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Side of the rack s

I say shoot Ball A and go to the side rail and out a little. Gaining 1 Point, then play a safe freezing the cueball to the side of the rack with a few loose balls loose on the other side of the rack and underneath by hitting the 2 or 3rd ball on the side of the rack. its tougher for your opponent to defend it.

I find its better to hit the second ball from the bottom, there are fewer balls to absorb the impact of the cueball and easier to get one of them to ht a rail after contacting the rack.

Hope this helps, and i hope i dont play you now that you know one of the tricks !

-Steve



^ what he said.

Ron F
 
A & b

my browser often has trouble with the wei table so please checkout the attached file.

i got out of position on my break shot in a match last night and wasnt sure which was the best safety to play.

is it option A where you make the object ball in the corner and just let the cue ball drift to the side rail, come off just a little, then do the safety where you shoot the cueball into the middle of the side of the pack and spread out the other side of the pack.

or is it option B where you call a safe, make the object ball in the corner pocket and bring the cueball back to the middle of the head rail area

????


A is good idea and if you get too high on the rack. Play a safe on one of the two head balls.
B is very good and the shot I believe that I would take. Playing a safe and sending the cue ball up table. But, if you hang up that object ball in the corner, you are in trouble.



Cleary:
I like the safe on #1
#2 is good but the next move without a doubt. The opponent will play safe into the side of that rack.
#3 is good but there is a chance if you are off just a little, a ball might not get to the rail. It is a good safe and I like your idea.
 
A is clearly the choice...Why not take the 1 point then play safe. Who know the end score of the game could be a 1 point differance.

i Used to play the shot in B with regularity, but i am finding that playing Shot A has offered greater reward lately.

-Steve

Btw..Very good post ! now this is what gets those creative juices going !!!
 
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why did you end up there.

I think of more of the thought of how did you leave yourself this way.Didnt i teach you to leave another ball on the same side of the table as your break ball especially the lead ball to the break ball to be made in the side pocket.Damn Steve you know better.

Bobby Chamberlain
 
Yes bobby, i do know better. I was not me who was left in this situation, this is just a discussion on whats the best option in given scenario !!!

What is your take on this ?

-Steve
 
It's hard to tell from the diagram if you can turn this into a break shot off the rail. I prefer to shoot shot B - but only if you can really stick the guy to the short rail and keep it centered. If you don't have that confidence, take the point and stick it to the side.

The reason why I think shot B is the move is because if you're accurate in pulling it out, the incoming player is forced to come with a shot and do something creative. Many times, they try to tick the rack and pop the rack open because they have no finesse. Taking an intentional is a dead end from there. It forces them to DO something.

I think if you take shot A, get the point and stick to the rack --- it's too easy for your opponent to squeak out of it by your second intentional by creating a tangent to escape the situation. Your extra point didn't win that much. Squeaking out of B is much tougher and can force a sell-out (which is worth sacrificing the point).

I dunno.... all I know is being kissed (or close to) the center of the head rail SUCKS. So, I like to put people there if it's easy and if I have no strong offensive move. Don't forget - they're shooting at a 15-ball rack from there too --- way tougher.
 
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Yes bobby, i do know better. I was not me who was left in this situation, this is just a discussion on whats the best option in given scenario !!!

What is your take on this ?

-Steve

Well Steve there are a few variables here.I am a very aggressive player,however this should depend on the players level your playing against also if your opponet is on any fouls next would be the score of the match.Most of the time the choice would be to call safe and put the cue ball on the headrail as you stated.Usually when you are playing well your first choice is the best decision. Bobby Chamberlain
 
the person i'm playing against is on no fouls. this is a just a situation that comes up fairly often for me as a B+ speed player. I get a lot of break shots successfully lined up, but I also get out of position for the break shots a lot too so I'm trying to figure out what to do from this point...but everyone's had good input. thanks! :woot:
 
from what I know option B is not very good because it has an easy return safety, just roll the cb on the foot spot and bump a ball or two from the last row (hitting the rail of course). These balls are likely to end up near cotner pockets putting pressure on the opponent, i.e. you in this case.
 
Correct but

from what I know option B is not very good because it has an easy return safety, just roll the cb on the foot spot and bump a ball or two from the last row (hitting the rail of course). These balls are likely to end up near cotner pockets putting pressure on the opponent, i.e. you in this case.


Yes, you are correct, if your opponent leaves you in the center of the table. I like taking that shot but I would try to leave the cue ball on the back rail near the pocket. Let your opponent attempt a long safe off the rack. All ideas that are listed are good to try and everyone is thinking correct defense. That's good.
 
from what I know option B is not very good because it has an easy return safety, just roll the cb on the foot spot and bump a ball or two from the last row (hitting the rail of course). These balls are likely to end up near cotner pockets putting pressure on the opponent, i.e. you in this case.

Traditionally, you would be correct if someone plays you safe to the end rail without making the initial ball. The fact that you make the ball, call safe and then roll the CB to the center of the end rail means you're rolling the CB to a full 15 ball rack. It's super easy to sell out from that distance hitting the head ball as a safe. You almost have to get lucky to have zero roll-off on the CB prior to impact.

What does everyone else think? Am I crazy? Would everyone roll the CB to the head ball on a 15-ball rack from that safe position?
 
Correct

Traditionally, you would be correct if someone plays you safe to the end rail without making the initial ball. The fact that you make the ball, call safe and then roll the CB to the center of the end rail means you're rolling the CB to a full 15 ball rack. It's super easy to sell out from that distance hitting the head ball as a safe. You almost have to get lucky to have zero roll-off on the CB prior to impact.

What does everyone else think? Am I crazy? Would everyone roll the CB to the head ball on a 15-ball rack from that safe position?


Yes, you are 100% correct. There is no way to play a safe on the top of the 15 ball rack after calling safe and pocketing the break ball from down at the other end of the table.. It is only a good safe when dealing with a 14 ball rack. That is why I prefer "B". Let the opponent try to play a good safe from a distant.

PS: in my first comment above. I did not catch myself when talking about the "A" safe and forgot about re-spotting the pocketed break ball. Where was my head....
 
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i probably should have put a pool along when i posed this question. i'm still torn! too many convincing arguments :confused: i guess i need to start getting that first position so this doesn't arise.
 
Traditionally, you would be correct if someone plays you safe to the end rail without making the initial ball. The fact that you make the ball, call safe and then roll the CB to the center of the end rail means you're rolling the CB to a full 15 ball rack. It's super easy to sell out from that distance hitting the head ball as a safe. You almost have to get lucky to have zero roll-off on the CB prior to impact.

What does everyone else think? Am I crazy? Would everyone roll the CB to the head ball on a 15-ball rack from that safe position?

I don't think you're crazy at all, Dave. That position, being at the head rail, and confronted with a full 15-ball rack, has "sell out" written all over it. If I were placed in this position by my opponent, I certainly wouldn't roll-up onto the head ball, thinking I could stick the cue ball onto it. You can even hit that head ball PERFECTLY CENTER (a gamble all its own), but imperfections in the rack behind that head ball would cause some deflection of the cue ball. Depending on how "centered" the cue ball is on the head rail, I might even try the classic 14.1 opening break, with the focus on making sure I return that cue ball to the head rail again. I'd rather sell out a very long distance shot (with the cue ball optimally pinned against the head rail, if I can manage it), than selling out a short distance shot in the rack area.

I'd rather my opponent be in this position of dealing with a full 15-ball rack with the cue ball against the head cushion, because he/she will start the three-foul countdown if he/she decides to just take an intentional foul from that spot.

These are some things I might try:

CueTable Help


[...]

I like this one the best. Being that One Pocket is my second-most favorite game (I teeter/flip-flop between 14.1 and One Pocket), this is a standard One Pocket shot. Just as in 14.1, pinning the cue ball to the pack is a common safe move in One Pocket. It's actually easy to perform, too -- just a bit of inside english, and you can almost intuitively get the feel for how much speed to put on the cue ball to have it bank off and pin itself to the pack. The object ball is guaranteed to bank to the other side of the pack. Like I said, a very common One Pocket move. Whenever you have the cue ball moving in a direction towards the pack, you're closing/shortening/eclipsing the available "window area" to see a shot at that object ball. I much prefer this over the other two options that cleary offered, as it -- to me -- is the easiest to do RELIABLY.

Cleary's second option involves getting the speed just right so that the object ball and the cue ball end up on opposite sides of the pack -- there's a small chance of a sell-out if you hit it too hard or too soft and the object ball "peeks out."

Cleary's third option, although a common move in One Pocket because there's only ever one target pocket on the table (vs all six pockets in 14.1) is a bit risky, because the apex 14-ball (in the top row of two balls) *can* leak out and sell out a shot to the side pocket or the head-rail corner pockets. (Obviously not a concern in One Pocket [because One Pocket "doesn't care" about any pockets on the table except those two foot-rail corner pockets], but it's *certainly* a concern in 14.1!)

This is a great discussion!
-Sean
 
For those who think aggressively in nature, is there anything wrong with cutting the ball in and going back and forth with some inside, trying to clip the top two balls off the second rail?

Worst case scenario, you miss and have to play safe anyway.
 
For those who think aggressively in nature, is there anything wrong with cutting the ball in and going back and forth with some inside, trying to clip the top two balls off the second rail?

Worst case scenario, you miss and have to play safe anyway.

If you're an outright aggressive player at all costs? No, I don't see anything wrong with that approach. But if you miss, bobble the ball, or worse -- the cue ball clips the top row just right and it scratches in a side pocket -- you're dead meat. In a 14.1 match, you may not get to the table again. In a funsy match, I might try this. But certainly not in a tournament!

But that's just me,
-Sean
 
For those who think aggressively in nature, is there anything wrong with cutting the ball in and going back and forth with some inside, trying to clip the top two balls off the second rail?

Worst case scenario, you miss and have to play safe anyway.

The prob lies in bobbling the ball and having the CB go back-forth and leaving a perfect break shot for your opponent (which happens a LOT because in order to do anything to the rack, you would need to hit that shot with a ton of speed).

Even if you make it, you have to get lucky to get a follow-up shot after hitting the rack. Most of the times with that approach, you're sticking to the side of the rack with 2 balls popping out the other side. Depending on how those balls pop-out, you've just hemmed yourself up. You almost have to get lucky and graze the top of the rack -- which is totally possible (I say "lucky" cause you're hitting this at warp speed just in the hopes of getting any action on the rack at all).

I'm prob the worst 14.1 player here so my opinion means squat -- but from that position, there isn't anything offensive there worth considering.... and like you, I'm aggressive. I just don't wanna shoot an offensive shot where I have to get "lucky" to get a next shot paired with a possible complete sellout attached to it.

Dave
 
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