Overheard from two money players:

[tedkaufman]

Hi Rossaroni...<<Alternate break may end the same way if everyone is going to break and run. The person winning the lag or the flip would always win hill-hill then huh? >>

Maybe so but in a race to say, 9, then both players would have at least one shot (at least the break) in no less than 4 games so there would be something at least resembling a "contest." As I noted, defending the winner breaks rule is no different that playing "loser kicks off" in football.

Its just a ridiculous rule.

As for "taking the action", it is just TOO funny that so many people....like Mike Sigel are so disrespectful of female players. How can you be so cock sure...to use an acceptable but bad pun that you would win when Allision beat 50% of the IPT qualified MEN in Vegas in a game she has hardly played???? That is a FACT.

But here is MY guarantee...which is a whole lot better than certain other guarantees discussed is this thread. The WPBA won't allow its players to engage in gambling but tell ya what. If there IS another IPT tournament, I will BE there...with CASH...and if there is a match involving Allision and ANY player not ranked in the Top 12 money stats then I'll post $2,000.00 per match with a ONE game spot to make up for 8 Ball not being her game.

Regards,
Jim

Jim, I'm a huge Allison Fisher fan. Her ability to control the cueball, make difficult shots under pressure, and her pattern play are exemplary. She also has great pool vision; she's imaginative and remarkably precise.

But if you value your money, do not make the bet you offered.

When you argue that Allison won 50% of the matches she played in the IPT, playing a game she's not familiar with, you fail to realize a few things. One, she had just as much exposure to competative 8 ball as nearly all the other guys. And 8 ball suits her skills very well because of the demand for precise cueball control. She doesn't break as hard as, say, Manalo, but she probably hits them as hard as Efren. So consider, this: She only managed to win 50% of her matches in the first two rounds. The first two rounds always included some players who really had no business being there. After the first two rounds, the field was filtered down to roughly the top 100. I assure you she would not have a 50% winning percentage against that field. Of course we don't know because she never lasted till the 3rd round. Figure it out.

If you want a nice local gambling match, put your money on Allison and I'll get an unranked IPT player named Tony Watson to play her. You can set the monetary figure. But I can assure you it can get as rich as you can stand.

 

[rossaroni]

Jim, I'm a huge Allison Fisher fan. Her ability to control the cueball, make difficult shots under pressure, and her pattern play are exemplary. She also has great pool vision; she's imaginative and remarkably precise.

But if you value your money, do not make the bet you offered.

When you argue that Allison won 50% of the matches she played in the IPT, playing a game she's not familiar with, you fail to realize a few things. One, she had just as much exposure to competative 8 ball as nearly all the other guys. And 8 ball suits her skills very well because of the demand for precise cueball control. She doesn't break as hard as, say, Manalo, but she probably hits them as hard as Efren. So consider, this: She only managed to win 50% of her matches in the first two rounds. The first two rounds always included some players who really had no business being there. After the first two rounds, the field was filtered down to roughly the top 100. I assure you she would not have a 50% winning percentage against that field. Of course we don't know because she never lasted till the 3rd round. Figure it out.

If you want a nice local gambling match, put your money on Allison and I'll get an unranked IPT player named Tony Watson to play her. You can set the monetary figure. But I can assure you it can get as rich as you can stand.

Ted, well put. I like the fact that you explained that you are a huge fan of Allison, but do realize that she can not compete with the men on a consistant basis. Shows that everyone is not bashing the women, they are just stating the facts. Also, eightball is the main game of very few of the IPT players. (Bernie being one of those players!) I remember before the IPT started someone said something about the women playing as good as the men (or at least most men). I think the results of the tournaments have proved them wrong. You mentioned Tony Watson. Who is he? He's not on the IPT? He's not on any pro tour either? Oh btw, can I have part of the action if Allison ever did match up with Tony?

P.S. I forgot about Marlon in my other post. So that makes 13 players that I think Allison would not like playing.

 

[av84fun]

<<I would say that 8 ball is a better game for the women. More dry breaks and as such equals more table innings. The game also requires less strength to move the ball around because of the infinite options and patterns.>>

Nick, that opinion is utterly disproved by the statistics. One good thing in the IPT's favor is that it has captured a wealth of data. If you study it you will see that B&R stat for the women is about 1/3 that of the men and that even between men the higher the B&R stat the higher the player finished on average.
Regards,
Jim

 

[rossaroni]

<<I would say that 8 ball is a better game for the women. More dry breaks and as such equals more table innings. The game also requires less strength to move the ball around because of the infinite options and patterns.>>

Nick, that opinion is utterly disproved by the statistics. One good thing in the IPT's favor is that it has captured a wealth of data. If you study it you will see that B&R stat for the women is about 1/3 that of the men and that even between men the higher the B&R stat the higher the player finished on average.
Regards,
Jim

Isn't it obvious that the people who break and run out the most will usually do better then the people who seldom b&r????

 

[av84fun]

cuetech...<<6 out or the 6,7, and the last two, depending on the female player. >>

First, it will never happen because AF won't involve herself with gambling. Next Alcano and Orcullo finished 11 and 5 in either Vegas or Reno unless I am mistaken. So for the "dream match" why not Top 50 UPA players like Chamat, Krah, Korsiak, Stalev or Troy Frank for example.

<<I think that the Women aren't allowed to gamble that are on tour, because if they got with some of those guys they wouldn't have enough money to make it to the next tourney. Just a thought. lol>>

That's a pretty ignorant remark.
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Well, she beat Feijn in Vegas so you would have been robbed on that match. I would also book it against Stickland who Gerda Hofstatter beat in Vegas. Not that the Pearl is FABULOUS when he brings is "A attitude" but when he doesn't....

Chamat...all day.

<<Archer, Johnny i would bet the ranch against allison with johnny all day>> Oh, what a heroic bet! Player of the DECADE in the 90's and one of the 4 or 5 best of all time. Hey man, takes guts to bet on him! LOL

 

[Nick B]

<<I would say that 8 ball is a better game for the women. More dry breaks and as such equals more table innings. The game also requires less strength to move the ball around because of the infinite options and patterns.>>

Nick, that opinion is utterly disproved by the statistics. One good thing in the IPT's favor is that it has captured a wealth of data. If you study it you will see that B&R stat for the women is about 1/3 that of the men and that even between men the higher the B&R stat the higher the player finished on average.
Regards,
Jim

I would argue that is a product of the women not getting out...not just not making a ball.

I don't think they kept the stat but I would bet that the men had more scratches on the break. More energy=more movement=more collisions=more scratches. Therefore the advantage goes to the weaker breaker? Of coarse not. Look the Top50 men play at a level that gives them quite a comfort zone above the Top Women. If you can't see that we don't have much to discuss. I think a play a reasonable game and when facing a player who is say a ball or so beneath me I have a great degree of comfort in the match. If I'm playing at 85% and they are playing 100% I still win 60% of the time. This turns into $. If I'm in top form the weaker player has no chance and it's robbery. Can I lose any given set? Sure. Can I lose a extended session? Very occasionally. The combination of being a better player and the comfort of not playing someone who on average will hurt me is tough to overcome.

Do the top 10 girls play great? Absolutely.
Does one set here or there at the IPT mean that Gerda plays better than Earl? Come on now.

Ten years ago I was in LA on business and played LJJ in a weekly tournament. She broke dry and I ran a 3 pack. Broke...hooked her on the one and had the nine hanging over a side pocket. Safety battle ensues and I get BIH and win 4-0. Does this mean I should have played MS in the first IPT event or is it one set?

Mike the Mouth vs Nick the Dick...I'm loving it. Let me at the bum.

Nick

 

[rossaroni]

Look the Top50 men play at a level that gives them quite a comfort zone above the Top Women. If you can't see that we don't have much to discuss. Nick

Exactly! No debating something that is a fact.

 

[jay helfert]

Well, she beat Feijn in Vegas so you would have been robbed on that match. I would also book it against Stickland who Gerda Hofstatter beat in Vegas. Not that the Pearl is FABULOUS when he brings is "A attitude" but when he doesn't....

Chamat...all day.

<<Archer, Johnny i would bet the ranch against allison with johnny all day>> Oh, what a heroic bet! Player of the DECADE in the 90's and one of the 4 or 5 best of all time. Hey man, takes guts to bet on him! LOL

If you would like to stake Allison against Marcus at any game, you have a bet with me. Of course you must first convince her to play. How about a $10,000 Challenge Match, made for video and the players share in the receipts.

They can play 9-Ball (Allison's best game) or Eight Ball. I promise you I can get Marcus to play. And I will stake him. And yes, I have a lot of respect for Allison's game. But I like Marcus too, a little more.

 

[av84fun]

Jake...<<Maybe ESPN should set up a challenge match with Allison and Earl. Cuetec would love that.>>

I bet they would but that would not be the right match because when Earl isn't being his own worst enemy he's STILL a world champion player.

The debate isn't whether the BEST female player can beat the BEST male player. The debate is that woman are SIGNIFICANTLY more disrespected than their skills. That is why Sigel ducked Allision in the King of the Hill thing and picked LJJ instead. Then he bad mouthed the women every chance he got.

The debate is whether Allision can beat PLENTY of "second and third division" male pros.

I have been searching high and low for any break and run stats from any male or female tour and can't find any. Accu-Stats must have them but I got no reply to my inquiry.

But those stats would settle the argument right on the spot because obviously, if a player breaks and runs it makes no difference who the opponent is.

Anyone have any such stats?
Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

<<I heard Shannon Daulton offer a similar game once. The difference being, the guy only needed to make a good hit to win.>>

Hey folks. That is one of the older hustle propositions of all time. It is just like saying "I can beat the Ghost more than 50% of the time." Remember, at a constant betting unit...majority rules!

Most top players can beat the ghost at least 50% of the time...which is exactly why they offer that prop bet.

Here's how to mess with that bet though. You accept the bet IF you can REMOVE one ball from the table immediately after the break and after the cue ball has been placed. But obviously, you CAN'T remove the lowest ball on the table.

What you can do a LOT of the time is to make the route a LOT more difficult by removing one of the "dots" in the connect-the-dots route. Try it. You'll see what I mean.
Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

<<or are you basing the top 12 on nine ball.>>
9 Ball.

<<but you got to realize that bet may not seem as good you think it is.>>
Or it may be better! (-:

But HEY...at least we're getting a little relief from all the dreary IPT speculation!!!
Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Hi Ted...<<One, she had just as much exposure to competative 8 ball as nearly all the other guys.>>

With genuine respect, I very, very seriously doubt that is true. I don't think that Alli played ANY 8 Ball in her past. On the contrary, 8 Ball is America's pool game...it gets about 75% of all the play in
America so the pros...most of whom started playing seriously in their early youth probably GREW UP playing 8 Ball.

If you meant tournament play, I would agree with you but that's not the point. The point is how many games of 8 Ball has A played vs. B.

<<If you want a nice local gambling match, put your money on Allison and I'll get an unranked IPT player named Tony Watson to play her. You can set the monetary figure. But I can assure you it can get as rich as you can stand.>>

No bet Ted. As we all know, there are some WORLD CHAMPION players out there who, for all kinds of reasons...mostly associated with trying to earn a living...don't play on any pro tours. I know plenty...you know plenty.

But Allision is a known quantity and any such match...that will never happen by the way...because she wouldn't involve herself with it...she doesn't even like being around gambling...

But of the major TOUR players...there are LOTS of them who would have no business betting major money against Allision. Not the TOP TIER admittedly...that is not my point. My point is that she can beat LOTS of professional male players.
Regards,
Jim

 

[Perk]

Can we pick amatuers? There are a few of them that are not on your Top 12 list that would come with some cash ready to play.

 

[av84fun]

Rossaroni...<<I think the results of the tournaments have proved them wrong. >>

NO! Look at the stats. Allison finished 84/86 in a field of 200! And Jasmine Ouschan...who may in a few years emerge as the female player to beat, finished 67th! She beat six of her nine opponents bro.

They both finished higher than the MAJORITY of men.
Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Perk...<<There are a few of them that are not on your Top 12 list that would come with some cash ready to play.>>

Hi Perk. I'm an old Detroit boy. GO BLUE!! No, only known quantities. As I mentioned in another thread, there are LOTS of players who don't want to starve...as the majority of the tour players do and therefore are roadie money players. It has always been that way. Some of the greatest players of all-time, Like Vern Elliot, wouldn't have been caught dead at an organized tournament.

Regards,
Jim

 

[rossaroni]

.The debate is whether Allision can beat PLENTY of "second and third division" male pros.Anyone have any such stats?Regards,Jim

Jim, I don't really want to keep debating this issue, but hey, you seem like a pretty level headed person(maybe I'm wrong!). To make it easier, can you list some of these second and third division pros who you think Allison plays better then. I think that would be easier, then someone saying, "I'll get Efren to play her and bring $100,000,000." Also, what do you think about Cliff giving her the 6 and beating her? I know many people on this forum saw this matchup. Oh, I found the stats you wanted. THE MEN BREAK AND RUN MORE THEN THE WOMEN!

 

[gregory]

BRO stats

if you're wondeirng about 8-ball IPT BRO stats, at World Open:
Fisher, Kelly15%
Corr, Karen 14%
Ouschan, Jasmin 9%
Fisher, Allison 9%

About 20 men had over 20%, and at least 60 men had better BRO % than the top woman.

 

[CantEverWin]

Mike isnt playing that well right now, but ducking? I think he's still the favorite in that match. Allison play's well. Maybe the best female player ever.

I only said Alcano and Orcollo because someone else brought them up. If your talking out of the top 12 last tournament then that helps a lot.

Engert
Parica
Varner
Bryant
J. Miller
Appleton
Q. Hann
Nevel
Alcano Went outside of top 18
Lining
Drago

I just picked a couple that went out in group 4 of the last tourney. I know I could find more that finished a lot lower. If she were out here I would probabaly put her up against

Max Eberle
Ernesto Dominguez
Dave Hemah
Morro Peaz
Parica
(I'm sure I spelled name's wrong.)

Just local guys I might like that bet with. They would be a lot closer matches thought.

 

[rossaroni]

I wouldn't really call 84/86 place proving everyone wrong about the women. I actually think it is the other way around. Everyone knows that there are quite a few players who do not play pro level who are in the IPT. So, by her placing in the top 100, that proves that she plays better then most of the men? I'm beginning to think that you are just joking around. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but this thread keeps getting crazier and crazier. Next you know, Allison will be the best one pocket player in the world and can give Efren 10-7!!!