Overweight break cues

I dunno anyone who brings a scale to check.

Serious question for the physics guys.
If I understand what I'm reading, a ball hit at 19 mph with a heavier cue,
carries more force than a ball hit at 19 mph with a light one?

I somehow can't imagine how that is.

How does the cue's force get added/multiplied to these two different situations?
Doesn't the cue completely stop affecting the CB once it leaves the tip?
It seems to me that two cue balls, with the same weight, moving at the same speed,
should cause the same impact.
 
CreeDo said:
I dunno anyone who brings a scale to check.

Serious question for the physics guys.
If I understand what I'm reading, a ball hit at 19 mph with a heavier cue,
carries more force than a ball hit at 19 mph with a light one?

I somehow can't imagine how that is.

How does the cue's force get added/multiplied to these two different situations?
Doesn't the cue completely stop affecting the CB once it leaves the tip?
It seems to me that two cue balls, with the same weight, moving at the same speed,
should cause the same impact.
Click to expand...

I'm not a physics guy, but a ball hit with a heavier cue will leave the tip at a higher velocity than one hit at the same cue speed with a lighter cue, so it will have more momentum (mass x velocity).

However, two balls leaving the tip at the same velocity will have identical momentum no matter how the ball was brought up to that speed, so they will do the same thing to the rack if hit in the same exact place.
 
CreeDo said:
I dunno anyone who brings a scale to check.

Serious question for the physics guys.
If I understand what I'm reading, a ball hit at 19 mph with a heavier cue,
carries more force than a ball hit at 19 mph with a light one?

I somehow can't imagine how that is.

How does the cue's force get added/multiplied to these two different situations?
Doesn't the cue completely stop affecting the CB once it leaves the tip?
It seems to me that two cue balls, with the same weight, moving at the same speed,
should cause the same impact.
Click to expand...

Sticks of different weights moving 19 mph will impart a different amount of force to the cue ball which is at rest.

The "real" argument starts when trying to determine the optimal weight that produces the highest speed and transfers the most force.

I think the argument is moot since very few people advocate breaking at an individual's top speed due to a loss of consistency. So if I am not using my top speed I can use the heavier stick and transfer the most force to the cue ball.

I think the only thing I am not applying is the increased deflection for an off center hit using a heavier stick. But since I am not blasting at top speed hitting close enough to center is not that challenging.

Ken
 
DoubleD said:
The reason your 1oz break cue is ridiculous is because it falls outside the constraints that could work for this. A 1oz cue would have to travel much faster than a persons arm ever could to have the same energy as a normal weight cue.
Click to expand...

Interesting. So, in theory, when using a 1oz cue the momentum of the CB would be 1/18th that obtained by using an 18oz cue at the same velocity. Doesn't seem you could move the CB at all with a cue that light, does it?
 
Okie said:
... I think the only thing I am not applying is the increased deflection for an off center hit using a heavier stick. ...
Click to expand...

Conventional wisdom is that squirt is largely a function of the "endmass" of the shaft, not the cue's total weight.
 
thanks for clearing it up... so basically:

If I move my back hand at a certain speed, the cue will decide if the CB
leaves the tip at that same speed, or a higher speed, or a lower speed.


Well, actually, can the cue ball leave my tip faster than my arm was swinging? Seems like that wouldn't happen... unless the tip is rubber or something.

So it just boils down to... what weight is the right balance between adding extra force, vs. reducing your arm speed.

I really question the idea that someone can do either a 50 oz or 5 oz, I can definitely feel the drag on my arm at 27 oz.
 
CreeDo said:
Well, actually, can the cue ball leave my tip faster than my arm was swinging? Seems like that wouldn't happen... unless the tip is rubber or something.
Click to expand...

It not only can, it does. If the hand is moving is a straight line, the cue is moving at the same speed. Because the mass of the cue is about three times that of the CB, the law of conservation of momentum (MV1 = MV2) demands that the initial velocity of the CB will be higher than the swinging cue.

How much depends on a lot of things, like the COR of the tip, the COR of the ball, the static friction of the CB as it sits on the cloth, where on the ball you hit it, etc. In other words, it doesn't lend itself to simple mathematical formulas, but is best measured experimentally.

The bottom line, however, is that unless you are resting the tip on the ball and pushing it from a standstill, the CB will always leave the tip faster than your arm is moving the cue. That's how some guys like Mike Dechaine get 35 MPH breaks, even though their arm can't possibly accelerate to that speed within the distance of even the longest stroke.
 
'til you have tried it

I have played, and broke, with cues from twelve to twenty-four ounces, even one that weighed over two pounds for a couple of weeks.

Physics or no physics, you hit a cue ball at break speed with a twelve ounce cue and you feel like a cartoon character when he hits the side of a mountain, SPRONG! Some associations did limit weight to twelve ounce minimum, don't remember who anymore. Doesn't matter, nobody is breaking long with a twelve ounce cue, much less something lighter.

With a twenty-four ounce cue you get something far different than half the impact, by perception. Seems like you do power through the cue ball barely noticing impact.

With the light grip for everything including the break in vogue right now, it doesn't matter what your arm weighs or what you weigh. The major factors are going to be what the stick weighs and what the cue ball weighs. The cue ball has left the tip before arm weight comes into play.

I agree that the perfect weight depends on the person. It shouldn't be that hard to test with a handful of different weight cues or a weighted cue and even the phone app to see which one gives the fastest break, all cues using a phenolic tip for consistency. Throw all the theory out the window and see where the rubber meets the road for you, the individual player.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
... It shouldn't be that hard to test with a handful of different weight cues or a weighted cue and even the phone app to see which one gives the fastest break ...
Click to expand...

You don't really need any speed-measuring device. Just take all the balls off the table except the cue ball. Hit it straight down the table and back. Did it go 4 table lengths? 4 1/2? 5? The cue with which you can hit the CB the farthest back and forth is the one with which you can hit it the fastest (be sure to take multiple trials).

Of course, accuracy of hit is another thing. But you can also judge that with this exercise by just observing how closely the ball stays on the original line rather than spinning or angling to the side.
 
Weight times velocity squared.

Weight times veolcity squared.




TSW said:
Has anyone tried a very heavy break cue? I'm looking at this 27-ouncer and curious about any thoughts. I am familiar with the heavy vs. light arguments for break cues, but have never seen one with a weight this far outside the norm.

Pool Dawg has a 100% money back guarantee so that is a definite incentive to try it.

http://www.pooldawg.com/product/elite-heavy-27oz-banned-break-cue
Click to expand...
 
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