Painpools Workmanship

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SORE,
I just love the uniform scratches on the inlay and the frayed wrap not to mention the air bubbles in the finish! I bet it looks even better in person! I want all my cues to look just like that and cannot imagine why you were upset! A picture is worth a thousand words and these really show the work for what it is...
JMO
Dan
 
Here's my 2cents!

Sore, I deeply sympathize with you. I know this has caused you a lot of stress and you have taken a lot of abuse throughout this, but personally I appreciate all that you have done. I'm sure that you have saved other people from going through the same thing. It is easy to see that Aaron is only a beginner's beginner, at best. Great pictures! They say more than a 1,000 words. Again I sympathize with you and appreciate what you have done.

Respectfully,
Pinocchio
 
From The Side Lines--my Comments

I am personally sorry for both Sore and Pain in regards to this transaction. I don't know either of you two or Esperitu. However, I am going to make some comments.

Point 1----The wrap is not perfect, but not what I would consider a hack job either. I have seen much worse wrap jobs from top makers.

Point 2----Question as to dirt in clear coat. In the pics the so called dirt looks like pin holes in the wood that absorbed more clear giving and impression of darker shadings. Possible flaw originally in cue from Espiritu.

Point 3----Scratches/cracking in Ivory points. To start with, Ivory has a natural look of cracking. It all depends on how it is cut as to wether the natural lines go up and down or side to side. However, the lines in question on the points and buttcap are not natural. They are man made. Plus they were not created by sanding/sandpaper either. Those marks are from a machine lathe. The lines are corresponding to the automatic carriage running down the lathe with a natural(non-router) machine tool steel cutter.

Now this makes me question as to wether these errors were in fact created by Pain or Mr. Esperitu. HMMMMM?

As for Espirtu's product quality I have seen some real gems out there both good and bad. Unfortunately, I have seen 5X more of the bad cues than the good. Most of the bad ones that I have seen have ranged from less than a year old to 5 years old. Almost all had numerous imperfections in the clear coats. And most were dust and peeling issues in the clear coat. I personally feel most if not all the errors in this transaction minus the "NOT THAT TERRIBLE WRAP JOB" to be original flaws from Espiritu.

Everyone needs to take a couple deep breathes here. Stand back for a few minutes and ask yourself DID PAIN JUST HELP TO SHOW THE ORIGINAL CUE MAKER'S FLAWS? I believe so. Mr. Sore I believe you really enjoy your Espiritu cue. Consider yourself on the lower percentage of people out there. Most people treat Espiritu's work like a HOT POTATOE trying to see how fast they can unload it onto someone else.

Good luck to all with this transaction, and hope you all come to grips with reality. For less than $200 you have a cue with a 10 times better finish than Espiritu could ever produce.
 
Why settle for less than perfect?

Snap9 said:
I personally feel most if not all the errors in this transaction minus the "NOT THAT TERRIBLE WRAP JOB" to be original flaws from Espiritu.

Regardless of the cost, the customer should never have to accept less then perfect work; not to mention the disgraceful abuse meted out by the seller on this thread.

Snap9 said:
For less than $200 you have a cue with a 10 times better finish than Espiritu could ever produce.

On the basis of the photo evidence I would not spend $20 with this seller, let alone over $150.
 
I think the marks were sandpaper not tooling

Snap9 said:
They are man made. Plus they were not created by sanding/sandpaper either. Those marks are from a machine lathe. The lines are corresponding to the automatic carriage running down the lathe with a natural(non-router) machine tool steel cutter.



IMO sandpaper could do this.
 
Not really

Johnny95610 said:
IMO sandpaper could do this.
Johnny the marks are way to uniform across all the inlays if you look closely. Sandpaper marking on a cue on any spinning aparatus leave the marks much closer with a randomness and don not intersect in an even spacing. Just look closely at the pics. Look at the big inlay and then the smaller inlays and see how the lines move in an even angle across the points. I personal own my own machine lathe and have made several projects both with machine tool bits and routers that are pool related. The markings from a tool steel bit moving along the carriage are almost exacting to the ones on Sore's cue. Sanding patterns vary considering that they are done by hand. Plus ivory is a very hard material which sandpaper(even the coarse grit) has a hard time cutting into.
 
Snap9 said:
However, the lines in question on the points and buttcap are not natural. They are man made. Plus they were not created by sanding/sandpaper either. Those marks are from a machine lathe. The lines are corresponding to the automatic carriage running down the lathe with a natural(non-router) machine tool steel cutter.

i would bet wrong. if from turning in a lathe the marks would not be so far apart and they would be more consistant. imo this shows the action of moving back and forth quickly while the object is spinning and i think could have only been done by uneven sanding pressure with the wrong grit paper, a bad piece of sand paper or maybe a piece of dirt in a the cloth used to wipe the cue while spinning in the lathe caused these marks. i do agree with you that the marks are man made though. made by the man doing the sanding or wiping. is it possible they were there before the new work was done?, sure but i think would be a big stretch.
 
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Snap9 said:
Johnny the marks are way to uniform across all the inlays if you look closely. Sandpaper marking on a cue on any spinning aparatus leave the marks much closer with a randomness and don not intersect in an even spacing. Just look closely at the pics. Look at the big inlay and then the smaller inlays and see how the lines move in an even angle across the points. I personal own my own machine lathe and have made several projects both with machine tool bits and routers that are pool related. The markings from a tool steel bit moving along the carriage are almost exacting to the ones on Sore's cue. Sanding patterns vary considering that they are done by hand. Plus ivory is a very hard material which sandpaper(even the coarse grit) has a hard time cutting into.


Ok. I stick with my opinion.
 
Snap9 said:
Point 1----The wrap is not perfect, but not what I would consider a hack job either. I have seen much worse wrap jobs from top makers.

Which top makers are you talking about? That is a hack job through and through, the gap below the forearm is enough to make it so. Add the bursting seam and the rip above the buttsleeve and that is an atrocious lizard wrap, something that any self-respecting CM or repairman would never let leave their shop.

As for your other points, why would Espiritu be more culpable when Painpool obviously is an amateur? I agree that Espiritu is not a top CM, but all things considered he has way more credibility in this situation. Spraying takes alot of tedious prep and has frustrated many, many would-be cuemakers...and if Pain thinks that lizard wrap is acceptable then I would be surprised to see much scruple given the finishing procedure.

-Roger
 
scratches don't look uniform to me. they look diagonal to each other.

and btw, that large diamond inlay is the worst cut inlay i've ever seen. does it even have four corners?????,,,cuz i can only count three. it's a three cornered diamond. :)
 
Snap9 said:
Johnny the marks are way to uniform across all the inlays if you look closely. Sandpaper marking on a cue on any spinning aparatus leave the marks much closer with a randomness and don not intersect in an even spacing. Just look closely at the pics.

There is nothing uniform about these scratch marks, except that they are across the whole cue, the butt cap photos prove that the best.
closeuptb3.jpg

cup2eu9.jpg


My first impression was wrong grit sandpaper as well. My cue didn't have these marks before I sent it to Aaron.
 
Sore_Aintya said:
There is nothing uniform about these scratch marks, except that they are across the whole cue, the butt cap photos prove that the best.

My first impression was wrong grit sandpaper as well. My cue didn't have these marks before I sent it to Aaron.

Pictures tell more of a story than what meets the eye! The pictures of the wrap tell me Aaron has not yet learned (or is ignoring the fact) that a leather or skin wrap cut square on the end (which is the only way it's going to be cut), will not mate up well if the transition of the finish to the wrap groove is not reasonably square also. It's not even necessary to look close. The finish was sprayed so thick that a radius was formed where the finish meets the wrap groove and no attempt to remove the excess finish was made. Attempt to match the wrap material up with a condition like that and this is what you get.

As for the "dog ear" on the wrap. The wrap material moved when the cut was made, and that's a fact!!! As for the seam: I have no earthly idea how a seam can be cut that badly. Did the lizard skin shrink? No it did not!

Scratches in the finish & the Ivory: #1, Ivory does not have the appearance of having cracks, it has grain. There's a huge difference in appearance!

What difference does it make how the scratches in or under the finish came to be? They are there and they are not acceptable. I will concede that they could have been there when the cue was originally built, however, Aaron posted a picture of the cue showing he removed the original finish. He also stated he found a deposit of epoxy which verifies that fact. If the cue had been sanded properly at that point, any scratches that were in the cue originally would have been removed. If they were too deep to remove, then Aaron as a "professional", should have notified Sore. Additionally, how does one explain the pin holes in the finish? Were they there when the cue was originally built?

PPG is one of the better materials out there, but, it does take some getting used to. After a cue is sprayed with it, if you take a piece of sandpaper to it without cleaning it first, YOU WILL GET SCRATCHES. It's caused by the solvents that have risen to the surface after the clear has cured. They tend to roll up under the sandpaper and will produce a scratch somewhat similar to what #220 sandpaper will leave. That's a fact folks, take it or leave it!

Obviously Sore had high expectations for the refinish, but he was well justified in that by Aaron having claimed that his finishes and wraps were high quality and that no job would leave his shop unless it was perfect.
 
Snap9 said:
Point 2----Question as to dirt in clear coat. In the pics the so called dirt looks like pin holes in the wood that absorbed more clear giving and impression of darker shadings. Possible flaw originally in cue from Espiritu.

Probably not from Russ

Point 3----Scratches/cracking in Ivory points. To start with, Ivory has a natural look of cracking. It all depends on how it is cut as to wether the natural lines go up and down or side to side. However, the lines in question on the points and buttcap are not natural. They are man made. Plus they were not created by sanding/sandpaper either. Those marks are from a machine lathe. The lines are corresponding to the automatic carriage running down the lathe with a natural(non-router) machine tool steel cutter.

I'd bet the heavy cash those are from sandpaper wrapped around the cue while it was spinning....

Now this makes me question as to wether these errors were in fact created by Pain or Mr. Esperitu. HMMMMM?

I had an Espiritu that had a less than stellar finish on it along with raised rings...don't know why he can't get it together sometimes....however I've never seen anything that bad from Russ...

As for Espirtu's product quality I have seen some real gems out there both good and bad. Unfortunately, I have seen 5X more of the bad cues than the good. Most of the bad ones that I have seen have ranged from less than a year old to 5 years old. Almost all had numerous imperfections in the clear coats. And most were dust and peeling issues in the clear coat. I personally feel most if not all the errors in this transaction minus the "NOT THAT TERRIBLE WRAP JOB" to be original flaws from Espiritu.

Everyone needs to take a couple deep breathes here. Stand back for a few minutes and ask yourself DID PAIN JUST HELP TO SHOW THE ORIGINAL CUE MAKER'S FLAWS? I believe so. Mr. Sore I believe you really enjoy your Espiritu cue. Consider yourself on the lower percentage of people out there. Most people treat Espiritu's work like a HOT POTATOE trying to see how fast they can unload it onto someone else.

Good luck to all with this transaction, and hope you all come to grips with reality. For less than $200 you have a cue with a 10 times better finish than Espiritu could ever produce.

................
 
Cory in DC said:
No kidding. Didn't anyone show up at the tourney last night?

A few did. I will let them post their own opinions.
I am rather curious though where the Riboners and Nicks disappeared too. Guess they didn't like my pictures after all.:(
 
Like Craig said

And I said earlier the cue looks better than when Russ shot it are you slow or something? Wake up and please leave me out of your problems. I have expressed my opinion and others feel as I do. You are not exactly showing a good side of yourself with this post. Are you not embarressed by your unneeded public opinions. You have a private problem with AAron-- Work it out and stop miss quoting me.
Thanks and good luck
Nick
 
nick serdula said:
And I said earlier the cue looks better than when Russ shot it are you slow or something? Wake up and please leave me out of your problems. I have expressed my opinion and others feel as I do. You are not exactly showing a good side of yourself with this post. Are you not embarressed by your unneeded public opinions. You have a private problem with AAron-- Work it out and stop miss quoting me.
Thanks and good luck
Nick

I forgot, Aaron is a better craftsman then Espiritu in your eyes.:rolleyes:
I would love to leave you out, unfortunately you decided to come into this thread and attack my credibility, demeanor, education and mostly my word and honor. Rest assured, I would never dream of misquoting you Nick, the things you say are too priceless to be lost in a sea of text.

Having a deep wallet and buying high end cues doesn't mean a person is more of a authority on what is good craftsmanship, it just means they have more of a bankroll to throw around.:)
 
I have to stick up for Russ Espiritu.......I have had 1 of Russ's cues for about 5 years and i have to tell you that not only is his cue the best hitting cue in 1 of my cases but also 1 of the nicest looking. I had Russ refinish this cue 2 1/2 years ago at Valley Forge. (he took it home from VF and refinished it) and i have to say that his refinish is 2nd to none. Maybe i just got lucky but this is also the 2nd cue he has done for me. For people to come on here and knock his work is uncalled for. To call them "HOT POTATOES THAT PEOPLE TRY TO GET RID OF" is absurd. I do not know Russ personally only thru the refinish dealings we have had. And i have always been treated with the utmost respect. Oh, and by the way. One of the biggest cue collectors on the east coast has a couple of Russ's cues in his collection. This man lives in Sarasota and is a close friend of mine and has always spoke highly of his work........................mike
 
Its like CRAIG SAID

ITS LIKE CRAIG SAID and I refer all my work to JERRY RAUENZAHN
and thanks for letting me mention Jerry again!
He tells you!

I had an Espiritu that had a less than stellar finish on it along with raised rings...don't know why he can't get it together sometimes....however I've never seen anything that bad from Russ...

As for Espirtu's product quality I have seen some real gems out there both good and bad. Unfortunately, I have seen 5X more of the bad cues than the good. Most of the bad ones that I have seen have ranged from less than a year old to 5 years old. Almost all had numerous imperfections in the clear coats. And most were dust and peeling issues in the clear coat. I personally feel most if not all the errors in this transaction minus the "NOT THAT TERRIBLE WRAP JOB" to be original flaws from Espiritu.

Everyone needs to take a couple deep breathes here. Stand back for a few minutes and ask yourself DID PAIN JUST HELP TO SHOW THE ORIGINAL CUE MAKER'S FLAWS? I believe so. Mr. Sore I believe you really enjoy your Espiritu cue. Consider yourself on the lower percentage of people out there. Most people treat Espiritu's work like a HOT POTATOE trying to see how fast they can unload it onto someone else.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Good luck to all with this transaction, and hope you all come to grips with reality. For less than $200 you have a cue with a 10 times better finish than Espiritu could ever produce.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

What is that again? 10 time better? Is he some kind of shill for Aron?
Nick
 
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