Palmer Model A - Why Refinish?

[Type79]

I've been on a mission for awhile now to encourage people to respect the originality of vintage cues and to take the time to evaluate a cues condition to decide what is necessary, if anything, to preserve a cue.

I recently happened upon a very original Palmer Model A in soiled condition with some nicks in the forearm and a chipped butt cap.

Some wouldn't have hesitated to rewrap and refinish the cue and dispense with the chipped butt cap to have a new one made. That never entered my mind because for me it was not only paramount to save the original wrap but also the cap since it was stamped "Palmer".

Paul Drexler of PFD Studios has cleaned nylon wraps for me in the past so I knew, or at least hoped, this one could be brought back from the brink as well.

So today I brought the cue to his shop for that service as well as reshaping the butt cap and a general cleanup. The overall job was such a success, I am reluctant to even refinish the nicked forearm.

I'll let you be the judge.

 

[Type79]

The rest of the pics.

 

[Straightpool_99]

I've been on a mission for awhile now to encourage people to respect the originality of vintage cues and to take the time to evaluate a cues condition to decide what is necessary, if anything, to preserve a cue.
Ok..Why? This kind of cue is never going to be worth a million dollars, anyway. I get it, you like vintage stuff. Others do too. It's just that they want it to look nice. So long as a restauration is done with the idea of preserving the original look, I don't see why is that so bad? I don't like stuff that has been all banged up, unless the damage is somehow a valuable part of the artefact (such as an old sabre with it's edge knicked from battles etc. A banged up pool cue doesn't quite compare, unless it's a rare museum piece owned by some kind of famous, temperamental genius, who banged his cue when he missed etc. The damage would then be part of the overall story of the item. When it's a pool cue owned by some random guy, that doesn't quite apply, IMO. ..."aand ladies and gentlemen, this knick is from when the small town dentist who owned his cue banged it on the table after losing 25 cents...Moving on, here is some lint from the cuecase he carried.."
I recently happened upon a very original Palmer Model A in soiled condition with some nicks in the forearm and a chipped butt cap.

Some wouldn't have hesitated to rewrap and refinish the cue and dispense with the chipped butt cap to have a new one made. That never entered my mind because for me it was not only paramount to save the original wrap but also the cap since it was stamped "Palmer".
To you that may be a priority. To others, they may like the overall layout of the cue, or the look, but may not care so much about the originality of the individual parts. Some times a plastic buttcap is just a plastic buttcap. No need to fetishize such a mundane object.
Paul Drexler of PFD Studios has cleaned nylon wraps for me in the past so I knew, or at least hoped, this one could be brought back from the brink as well.

So today I brought the cue to his shop for that service as well as reshaping the butt cap and a general cleanup. The overall job was such a success, I am reluctant to even refinish the nicked forearm.

I'll let you be the judge.

The cue looks really nice and the wrap came out great. It would be even nicer with a refinished forearm, which would make it perfect, but what do I know? Big fan of the buttcap design on many Palmers.

 

[dvs]

I'd leave it alone

Looks great to me.

Love the different colored wrap. I have an old Rich cue which looks similiar. Got it new as a teenager and wouldn't think of refinish either.

Love the classics.

It's a beauty.

 

[Chopdoc]

I tend to feel the way the OP does about originality.

In many areas of collecting, refinishing or disturbing originality destroys value. For some reason, that does not seem to be as true among those interested in cues.

I think a beautiful job was done on that Palmer.


I have been tempted many times to have my Joss refinished and have never given in. My Joss butt sleeve is pretty nicked up. The forearm has one nick in it. The finish is otherwise beautiful.

My Huebler is in beautiful condition but the finish is nearly worn off and the wrap is a little dirty. No chips, and only one extremely minor nick on the butt sleeve. A refinish of the same model Huebler was recently shown off in the AZB cue gallery. It was beautiful. I had advised the owner to just polish and wax the cue. I respect that he went with the full refinish, it is his cue. It did make me think again of refinishing my own...but I am still holding off.



What really blows my mind is how quickly people have work done on truly valuable old cues. And it seems the community at large generally approves. These are often called restorations but they most certainly are not. Modern finishes are used. I understand they are better, but that is not a restoration.

I understand if a cue is damaged or something is cracked or broken. That is a repair, not a refinish. If the cue is to be used it may simply be necessary. Or if the cosmetics are so severely affected the repair may be warranted.



I like it that you saved the original butt cap. Sometimes this is done but the work is too extreme and the butt cap would have been better off replaced. This Palmer turned out nice. Not too extreme.

These matters can be frustrating where original materials are difficult or impossible to replace. The early McDermotts often had color coordinated bumpers. Try replacing one of those! LOL! There are none around that I can find. The Huebler bumpers are getting pretty scarce. And everybody knows that brown Brunswick KU bumpers are sought after. Then there is the original Cortland linen. And of course certain butt cap and ring materials can be difficult or impossible to source.

Then of course there are original signatures, logos, stampings, makers marks, etc. Difficult and touchy matter sometimes.



It's a personal thing. I wouldn't argue with anybody about it, I just offer my thoughts. But if I were buying a cue, I would prefer it original, or as original as reasonably possible.


As far as the cue that is the subject of this thread, it is hard to render an opinion without detailed pics of that forearm...or seeing it in person.

I would say first consider a good polish and wax. See if that satisfies. If it does not, then a refinish might be considered a repair and therefor be warranted.



.

 

[KRJ]

There are two sides to every coin. Car collector like original, and others want them refinished in original condition. Heck, some like it modified, and others do other things.

For me, I just don't want to drive a car with faded paint, or rust or dents, or torn seats, whatever.

I had a Burton Spain for 30 years, and had it refinished, and sold it 2 years after the refinish for top dollar. DIdn't hurt the value one bit. Granted, it was done by Hercek, and not some schmo that just does tips

 

[CJH]

A better inspection of the forearm would be necessary to decide but i lean in favor of a refinish. I believe a refinish is good for the cue and will help protect. I would only let someone like Paul do it though.

 

[Michael Webb]

I think on any cue you have to determine possible value and overall condition. I turn down restoring a lot of Pamers because people don't really know what they have. Orher than it's a Palmer so it's worth big bucks. Not true. But some of them are worth the soup to nuts treatment. I'm not on my computer so I can't provide pictures.

 

[Michael Webb]

Double post

 

[classiccues]

First off.. the cue market is the worst possible example of collecting prices, compared to any other genre of collecting. Especially those that are centric regarding age and condition.

For example:

This model A in 100% Original Condition, mint, unplayed.. $500.00

This model A in 100% RESTORED mint, unplayed since work, new shaft, $ 500.00

See the problem....

This is not a market that has any basis in reality, or one that rewards originality and condition.

The above scenario, the restored cue should CAP at 250.00, period. Why? Well now you maintain a level of reward for finding the pristine, and the those cues that are original and better used cues. Any schmuck can get a cue restored, how many are found unmolested, and mint?

In collecting to induce collecting there needs to be all price levels. Baseball cards, creases, corner chips, etc.. result in a condition / value relationship. This is maintained by ALL collectors, and dealers. Restore a card and its worthless, or 50% of value at best.

You cannot nurture a market where mint all original is worth the same as restored, with replacement parts. There needs to be pride in ownership, that hey I spent the extra money for 100% original.

The cue market will not, cannot, reset itself without upsetting the guys who got into stuff to high, on the restored side. The upside would be the original cues would be worth more....

JV

 

[BmoreMoney]

First off.. the cue market is the worst possible example of collecting prices, compared to any other genre of collecting. Especially those that are centric regarding age and condition.

For example:

This model A in 100% Original Condition, mint, unplayed.. $500.00

This model A in 100% RESTORED mint, unplayed since work, new shaft, $ 500.00

See the problem....

This is not a market that has any basis in reality, or one that rewards originality and condition.

The above scenario, the restored cue should CAP at 250.00, period. Why? Well now you maintain a level of reward for finding the pristine, and the those cues that are original and better used cues. Any schmuck can get a cue restored, how many are found unmolested, and mint?

In collecting to induce collecting there needs to be all price levels. Baseball cards, creases, corner chips, etc.. result in a condition / value relationship. This is maintained by ALL collectors, and dealers. Restore a card and its worthless, or 50% of value at best.

You cannot nurture a market where mint all original is worth the same as restored, with replacement parts. There needs to be pride in ownership, that hey I spent the extra money for 100% original.

The cue market will not, cannot, reset itself without upsetting the guys who got into stuff to high, on the restored side. The upside would be the original cues would be worth more....

JV

On the card analogy though ; with a card that is being " restored " aren't they basically only using specialized " cleaning " procedures and not really repairing / replacing anytjing? I ,Ean I guess they could " bleach " the white edges or maybe " press " fraying corners but no materials are added though correct ?

As to the pool cues original vs restored I see what you're saying but when it comes to pricing a " restored " cue I believe the owners are at least trying to get back out whatever they can from what they spent out of pocket for the restoration.

Doc, when it comes to using original materials in the restoration with cars vs cues - it's not always true. Sure a restoration done on a car that used all NOS parts is going to be more valuable than done with a bunch of repops. However, think about when it comes to the paint. I don't believe you lose much if any value using a two stage as opposed to a lacquer job which would be the " original " materials. Yall would know better than me but couldn't the same analogy be used for cues?

 

[Type79]

"...when it comes to pricing a " restored " cue I believe the owners are at least trying to get back out whatever they can from what they spent out of pocket for the restoration."

Which is a failed strategy in pricing anything.

 

[GoldCrown]

Obviously do what the owner is comfortable with. If looking for resale someday research
the value Original vs Restored. I'm a big fan of restore.. pristine. I never bought or owned anything with regard to selling someday.

 

[BmoreMoney]

"...when it comes to pricing a " restored " cue I believe the owners are at least trying to get back out whatever they can from what they spent out of pocket for the restoration."

Which is a failed strategy in pricing anything.

True, but we see it all the time - especially in the car market. Truth be told you're LUCKY most times to get 50 cents on the dollar of the time and materials spent on cars / trucks. Most understand that ( I think I may be a bit optimistic using " most " ) but there are ALWAYS people that are asking huge amounts based on what they have out into it and when you politely try to I from them that's not really how it works some can get downright indignant. DO you think as a whole, folks that have their cues restored are bit better informed? I'd like to believe so.

 

[skins]

There are two sides to every coin. Car collector like original, and others want them refinished in original condition. Heck, some like it modified, and others do other things.

For me, I just don't want to drive a car with faded paint, or rust or dents, or torn seats, whatever.

I had a Burton Spain for 30 years, and had it refinished, and sold it 2 years after the refinish for top dollar. DIdn't hurt the value one bit. Granted, it was done by Hercek, and not some schmo that just does tips

That's the reason IMO....

Spain = Hercek
Bushka = Tascarella
G. Szamboti = B. Szamboti
Palmer/Paradise/Martin = Rubino/Drexler
etc....

IMO Dennis Searing, because of his knowledge and superior talent, wouldn't hurt value of any cue he worked on...

 

[jasonlaus]

First off.. the cue market is the worst possible example of collecting prices, compared to any other genre of collecting. Especially those that are centric regarding age and condition.

For example:

This model A in 100% Original Condition, mint, unplayed.. $500.00

This model A in 100% RESTORED mint, unplayed since work, new shaft, $ 500.00

See the problem....

This is not a market that has any basis in reality, or one that rewards originality and condition.

The above scenario, the restored cue should CAP at 250.00, period. Why? Well now you maintain a level of reward for finding the pristine, and the those cues that are original and better used cues. Any schmuck can get a cue restored, how many are found unmolested, and mint?

In collecting to induce collecting there needs to be all price levels. Baseball cards, creases, corner chips, etc.. result in a condition / value relationship. This is maintained by ALL collectors, and dealers. Restore a card and its worthless, or 50% of value at best.

You cannot nurture a market where mint all original is worth the same as restored, with replacement parts. There needs to be pride in ownership, that hey I spent the extra money for 100% original.

The cue market will not, cannot, reset itself without upsetting the guys who got into stuff to high, on the restored side. The upside would be the original cues would be worth more....

JV

Like everything else, the market sets the price
Jason

 

[classiccues]

There is some degree of fault to this logic...

None of the restorers are the original makers...

If you found a closeted Bushka, Spain blank, all original, little play.. it should be worth the max amount for that cue... the same cue restored by Pete, with two new shafts and a new wrap needs to be adjusted.. (of which I sold many) this is not to say he shouldn't be the guy that does the work, the VALUE is where the difference should be incorporated.

Now if you want to make a case that Searing is better at refinishing than someone else, knock yourself out, or his shafts are worth more, ok, that is an opinion that the buyer, or owner needs to feel good about... but they are not original, regardless at that point.

I am not against getting shafts made for a cue, keep the originals though. I think a new blue book, should be done, and should focus on this very aspect.

I am looking at a 66 Strat, one refinished for 7500, the other all original, for almost double. This is how guitars and that market stays fresh even in a down economy, they don't break this rule. I'll probably make an offer on the refinish one, because the electrics are original, and live with the new paint.

IMHO if the market got serious and adjusted this, the market would have a better chance at bouncing back.

JV

That's the reason IMO....

Spain = Hercek
Bushka = Tascarella
G. Szamboti = B. Szamboti
Palmer/Paradise/Martin = Rubino/Drexler
etc....

IMO Dennis Searing, because of his knowledge and superior talent, wouldn't hurt value of any cue he worked on...

 

[maha]

none of the early gene balner / palmer cues had his name like on the butt cap that i ever saw. or a rubber on the bottom. although i supposed since most all his cues were ordered some might have asked for it..

 

[pwd72s]

True, but we see it all the time - especially in the car market. Truth be told you're LUCKY most times to get 50 cents on the dollar of the time and materials spent on cars / trucks. Most understand that ( I think I may be a bit optimistic using " most " ) but there are ALWAYS people that are asking huge amounts based on what they have out into it and when you politely try to I from them that's not really how it works some can get downright indignant. DO you think as a whole, folks that have their cues restored are bit better informed? I'd like to believe so.

Difficult to compare cues and cars. New paint on cars can be pretty effective at covering up flaws, for a while. Not so much the case on a cue refinish.

 

[KRJ]

Difficult to compare cues and cars. New paint on cars can be pretty effective at covering up flaws, for a while. Not so much the case on a cue refinish.

Actually, that is not correct. New paint on a car will highlight any flaws, and thus the reason why doing body work, it's got to be near perfect. Lots of sanding, lots of "crafting", to get it right.