pause before pulling the trigger?

[crosseyedjoe]

Don...I think Danny might have paraphrased that line from our fellow instructor, the great and mighty Oz...who has stated for many years, the undeniable truism: "They don't know what they don't know!"

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Who also paraphrased Plato, "The Parable of the Cave"

 

[Williebetmore]

Who also paraphrased Plato, "The Parable of the Cave"

Joe,
Exactly right. (and of course Plato probably stole it from Aristophanes "The Frogs", who had probably stolen it from some itinerant ancient Greek pool player).

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[mikepage]

Bob...There are more Master instructors who believe what I believe[...]

My understanding is you believe every stroke has a pause at the back, that the necessity of changing from backward motion to forward motion constitutes a pause.

BCA master instructor Tom Simpson doesn't believe this. See article 27 of
http://www.poolclinics.com/articles.html

BCA Master instructor and head of the BCA instructor program Fran Crimi doesn't believe this. She wrote last month: "... a player like Efren Reyes who often doesn't pause at the end of his backstroke ..."

Is there a BCA master instructor not involved with Randy's Cuetech school that would say everybody pauses?

They don't adopt your use of the word in golf.

They don't adopt your use of the word in weightlifting.

Pool authors all over the place talk about how some players have a pause and others don't.

If we went to World Pool Championships in Manila right now and asked the players to get in one line if they have a pause at the end of their backstroke and in another line if they don't, we'd get a bunch of people in each line. They'd know what we mean. And if I did that at my local poolhall, they'd know what I mean too. We're not talking about some esoteric technical definition as you seem to suggest.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience and your commitment to billiard instruction. That's not at issue here.

But your nonstandard use of the word pause is actually the third billiard word or phrase in the last month that I've noticed you use differently from the mainstream. Of course you can always fall back on the claim that everybody can choose to use a word any way he wants. And that's true. You can choose to call a "stop shot" a shot for which the cueball rolls forward six inches. Nobody can stop you. But what we can do is appeal to that commitment to billiard instruction that I referred to above. When we communicate poorly or in a way that doesn't match with the generally accepted standard, billiard instruction suffers. This is because students get and compare information from many different sources.

For examples,

On 9-23-07, you wrote,

A half ball hit (or a quarter ball aim) ends up with a 45 degree cut angle.

I pointed out that if you type "half ball hit" into google, You will get over 1000 hits,
from Byrne
Tom Simpson
wikipedia
Bob Jewett
Capelle
Koeller
Ron Shepard
Dr. Dave
inside pool mag
billiards digest

and the list goes on

Every single one of these sources uses "half ball hit" to mean a cut angle of 30 degrees, not 45 degrees. And I speculated the phrase had its meaning before any of these people were born.

You show no sign of understanding it is a problem if you use the same phrase differently from other people. There is no indication you have any plans to change.

On October 18 2007, you wrote,

Making your cue follow past the CB a longer distance (by dropping your elbow) does not create more followthrough

You say this despite the fact this is exactly what nearly every pool player and instructor on the planet means by a long followthrough.


I'm not talking about what you understand or don't understand, or what you recommend or don't recommend. I know you understand the stuff, and I know you have a lot of sound and helpful recommendations.

But you're not doing this in a vacuum. It's not just you and a few SPF instructors or whatever and a bunch of students. The billiards community is big, and if we're really going to promote better play, better understanding, and a better appreciation of the game as broadly as I think we'd all like, I think we should all show some reverence to the idea of adopting and promoting clear, accurate, common language.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Joe,
Exactly right. (and of course Plato probably stole it from Aristophanes "The Frogs", who had probably stolen it from some itinerant ancient Greek pool player).

Socrates was Plato's teacher who coined double ignorance which was explained by Plato. Aristophanes though about 20 years older than Plato was just a "consumer" of Socrates and Plato's philosophy.

 

[Snoogi]

My understanding is you believe every stroke has a pause at the back, that the necessity of changing from backward motion to forward motion constitutes a pause.

BCA master instructor Tom Simpson doesn't believe this. See article 27 of
http://www.poolclinics.com/articles.html

BCA Master instructor and head of the BCA instructor program Fran Crimi doesn't believe this. She wrote last month: "... a player like Efren Reyes who often doesn't pause at the end of his backstroke ..."

Is there a BCA master instructor not involved with Randy's Cuetech school that would say everybody pauses?

They don't adopt your use of the word in golf.

They don't adopt your use of the word in weightlifting.

Pool authors all over the place talk about how some players have a pause and others don't.

If we went to World Pool Championships in Manila right now and asked the players to get in one line if they have a pause at the end of their backstroke and in another line if they don't, we'd get a bunch of people in each line. They'd know what we mean. And if I did that at my local poolhall, they'd know what I mean too. We're not talking about some esoteric technical definition as you seem to suggest.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience and your commitment to billiard instruction. That's not at issue here.

But your nonstandard use of the word pause is actually the third billiard word or phrase in the last month that I've noticed you use differently from the mainstream. Of course you can always fall back on the claim that everybody can choose to use a word any way he wants. And that's true. You can choose to call a "stop shot" a shot for which the cueball rolls forward six inches. Nobody can stop you. But what we can do is appeal to that commitment to billiard instruction that I referred to above. When we communicate poorly or in a way that doesn't match with the generally accepted standard, billiard instruction suffers. This is because students get and compare information from many different sources.

For examples,

On 9-23-07, you wrote,


I pointed out that if you type "half ball hit" into google, You will get over 1000 hits,
from Byrne
Tom Simpson
wikipedia
Bob Jewett
Capelle
Koeller
Ron Shepard
Dr. Dave
inside pool mag
billiards digest

and the list goes on

Every single one of these sources uses "half ball hit" to mean a cut angle of 30 degrees, not 45 degrees. And I speculated the phrase had its meaning before any of these people were born.

You show no sign of understanding it is a problem if you use the same phrase differently from other people. There is no indication you have any plans to change.

On October 18 2007, you wrote,



You say this despite the fact this is exactly what nearly every pool player and instructor on the planet means by a long followthrough.


I'm not talking about what you understand or don't understand, or what you recommend or don't recommend. I know you understand the stuff, and I know you have a lot of sound and helpful recommendations.

But you're not doing this in a vacuum. It's not just you and a few SPF instructors or whatever and a bunch of students. The billiards community is big, and if we're really going to promote better play, better understanding, and a better appreciation of the game as broadly as I think we'd all like, I think we should all show some reverence to the idea of adopting and promoting clear, accurate, common language.

While it's always good to better understand advance physics, I think we don't need to be expert physicists to better our games..there's no doubt it's happening on the table, but we win by the practical aspects of it. I'm just speaking for myself as a pool player, just simplicity-SPFF..but what are their true scientific definitions is not as important to me as breaking and running racks. I'm not sure but I believe many pool players think alike..they will dread all the scientific theories and figures..JMHO.

 

[JimS]

It would be nice if there was a uniform, accepted definition for each term. I get easily confused and I want to understand.

As far as the definition of "pause" goes.... for me a pause means that I can see a definite "stop" at the back of the stroke and that the pause is a planned and deliberate part of the stroke.... i.e. swing back, pause, stroke.

Pausing improves my forward stroke.

I like that the physicists define all of the aspects of the game accurately. I don't read all of the posts that explain all the science of the game because I'm not educated along those lines and I get lost in the terminology but I'm interested in what is concluded and how that might effect the outcome of my shots. Often I just continue to peruse a scientific thread until someone splains things in my language.

I really appreciate what you scientists say/do to help me understand the game and I appreciate the teachers that can distill all the information presented and spoon feed it to this needy novice.

 

[Jal]

Much of the discussion has been centered around the "fact" that when something reverses direction in one dimension it must necessarily pass through zero velocity at some point. And the great debate is whether or not this should be termed a "pause".

In classical physics, or using common sense, the answer would be that the object must pass through zero velocity. But this simply isn't true in modern physics. Its velocity is never that well defined (with infinite precision) at any time. This, according to the standard interpretation, is not due to a limitiation of our ability to measure its velocity, but rather due to the fact that it just doesn't have an absolutely perfectly defined velocity.

So, the definition of "pause" must therefore become somewhat arbitrary, ie, it is going less than such and such a speed for at least such and such an amount of time.

But this is beside the point. Clearly, everyone (well almost everyone) knows what is meant by a deliberate pause where the force applied to the cue is intentionally brought to zero (or near zero) at the end of the backswing, as opposed to continuing to apply an unquestionably, undeniably, unambiguously non-zero force. Whether you want to call the latter a "pause" is up to you. But because of the force (near zero versus definitely well above zero in the forward direction), the distinction between the two cases is more than semantic, as has been pointed out.

Jim

 

[td873]

My understanding is you believe every stroke has a pause at the back, that the necessity of changing from backward motion to forward motion constitutes a pause.
...
But your nonstandard use of the word pause

Just playing devil's advocate here, and attempting to narrow the "pause" issue. Please keep in mind that I am not taking sides, or ribbing you, but on this issue, I think I see the "other side." But please correct me if my rudimentary understanding of physics is incorrect.

At the end of a pendulum's arc, it stops. That is, it has its lowest kinetic energy and highest potential energy. Whether you call this, a "stop" "a rest" "a lack of kinetic energy" or "application of conservation of energy" - there is a point where the pendulum changes direction. The argument for the physicists is that this is not a "pause" since pause MUST BE for a non-zero length of time.

The point of contention lies in the use of pause and stop interchangably. Even assuming that my description of "stop" (above) is incorrect, the use of these two words seems straight forward.

This understanding is supported by many uses in daily life: pause a video vs. stop it. Stop at a light vs. pause at a yield sign, stop what you are doing vs. pause what you are doing. It is clear that "stop" implicates something longer than a pause.

Further, if you look up pause in various non-technical dictionaries - you get a definition that indicates that a "stop" is related to a "pause" and may be used synonymously in some instances. In other scenarios, "pause" is a subset of a "stop" (that is, a stop is longer than a pause).

Pause (various sources):

"a temporary stop or rest" [implying pause is shorter than stop]
"any comparatively brief stop, delay, wait, etc" [same]
"To cease or suspend the action of temporarily; stop for an interim" [vs. stop for a long time]​

Other higher disclipines use the word similarly:
Stedmans's Medical Dictionary: A temporary stop or cessation.

In fact, the etymology of the word pause shows it is actually OLDER than Newtonian physics, and means "a stop"

1426, from M.Fr. pause (14c.), from L. pausa "a halt, stop, cessation," from Gk. pausis "stopping, ceasing," from pauein "to stop, to cause to cease." The verb is from 1526.​

It seems to me that mandating the word "pause" mean only what the Physics world requires it to mean is no more correct than the converse - and may actually contradict popular convention.

Of course, this does not address the issue of folks stating and advocating that "everyone pauses" - however, if you START with the assumption that a pause is any stop, then how can the statement be incorrect with regards to the pendulum stroke?

Lastly, what word do the physics folks advocate using for the end of pendulum's arc? There is plenty of talk about what it DOESN'T DO (ie, pause), but none regarding what it DOES DO. Stop, cease, halt? Maybe giving a better word will resolve the issue.

-td

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Lastly, what word do the physics folks advocate using for the end of pendulum's arc? There is plenty of talk about what it DOESN'T DO (ie, pause), but none regarding what it DOES DO. Stop, cease, halt? Maybe giving a better word will resolve the issue.

-td

It stops. A more technical way to say it is that the (angular) velocity goes through zero. Also at the end of the arc, the acceleration is at its maximum.

This last point is critical for what I call a "pause." During the pause, by my definition, the acceleration is zero. Physically, this means that your muscles can be relaxed. (The muscles could also be fighting against each other to get no net acceleration, but I think most players figure out without thinking about it that a stroke with tension throughout is a bad idea.)

 

[crosseyedjoe]

It stops. A more technical way to say it is that the (angular) velocity goes through zero. Also at the end of the arc, the acceleration is at its maximum.

This last point is critical for what I call a "pause." During the pause, by my definition, the acceleration is zero. Physically, this means that your muscles can be relaxed. (The muscles could also be fighting against each other to get no net acceleration, but I think most players figure out without thinking about it that a stroke with tension throughout is a bad idea.)

Well Bob, if it's a true pendulum stroke, it never really stops.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Well Bob, if it's a true pendulum stroke, it never really stops.

For some definition of "stop." I hope you agree that for an instant (a single point in time of zero length) it is motionless.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
Of course, this does not address the issue of folks stating and advocating that "everyone pauses" - however, if you START with the assumption that a pause is any stop, then how can the statement be incorrect with regards to the pendulum stroke?
[...]

It can't be. But what your discussion misses is that with regards to pause, the common use, the lay use, the use in other sports and the widespread use in billiards is the same as the physics use.

It is just a few instructors in recent years who seem to be trying to either change the meaning or purposefully use the same word a different way.

Try this. Go to http://groups.google.com/advanced_search

Under group put "rec.sport.billiard"
In keywords put. pause back stroke

You will get many discussions going back a decade or so about whether to pause at the backstroke. If this is even a question, that means the asker believes it's possible to not pause, in other words uses the conventional definition that happens to agree with the physics.

The question happens over and over again in those archived discussions, and nobody says, "wait a minute: everybody pauses!" That's because everybody is aware of the trivia point that the velocity has to go through zero and doesn't even consider calling that a "pause."

Virtually everybody, technical or not, in the billiards world uses the word pause this way. The new "everybody pauses" stuff is a red herring that should be ground up and added to catfood.

Lastly, what word do the physics folks advocate using for the end of pendulum's arc? There is plenty of talk about what it DOESN'T DO (ie, pause), but none regarding what it DOES DO. Stop, cease, halt? Maybe giving a better word will resolve the issue.

-td

Again, with the word pause, I recommend sticking with the common, well established definition. That is, Buddy has a pause at the backstroke. Mizerak didn't.

But because you asked about the physics stuff, I'll respond to that. Most people in physics call the pendulum's maximum amplitude ( or a ball in the air or a mass on a spring or the beating heart at it's biggest) the turning point. If someone was talking about the velocity, he or she might say the velocity is zero at the turning point--or perhaps the velocity goes through zero at the turning point.

 

[mikepage]

Much of the discussion has been centered around the "fact" that when something reverses direction in one dimension it must necessarily pass through zero velocity at some point. And the great debate is whether or not this should be termed a "pause".

In classical physics, or using common sense, the answer would be that the object must pass through zero velocity. But this simply isn't true in modern physics. Its velocity is never that well defined (with infinite precision) at any time. This, according to the standard interpretation, is not due to a limitiation of our ability to measure its velocity, but rather due to the fact that it just doesn't have an absolutely perfectly defined velocity.

So, the definition of "pause" must therefore become somewhat arbitrary, ie, it is going less than such and such a speed for at least such and such an amount of time.[...]

Jim

I know a guy who wrote and published in the Journal of Chemical Physics a research article comparing a one-dimensional collision between two molecules using classical physics, quantum physics, and a semiclassical mix between the two. The article is called A Comparison of Quantum, Classical, and Semiclassical Descriptions of a Model, Collinear, Inelastic Collision of Two Diatomic Molecules.

And the weird thing is the guy is a pool player. In a strange twist, he happens to have an annoying pause at his backstroke that he can't get rid of. I can ask his view on the quantum pause issue if you like.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

I know a guy who wrote and published in the Journal of Chemical Physics a research article comparing a one-dimensional collision between two molecules using classical physics, quantum physics, and a semiclassical mix between the two. The article is called A Comparison of Quantum, Classical, and Semiclassical Descriptions of a Model, Collinear, Inelastic Collision of Two Diatomic Molecules.

And the weird thing is the guy is a pool player. In a strange twist, he happens to have an annoying pause at his backstroke that he can't get rid of. I can ask his view on the quantum pause issue if you like.

Quantum pause?

 

[9 on the snap]

At this point I feel it necessary to state that y'all are a lot smarter than me.

 

[mikepage]

Quantum pause?

Don't look at me! I didn't bring it up ;-)

 

[td873]

It can't be. But what your discussion misses is that with regards to pause, the common use, the lay use, the use in other sports and the widespread use in billiards is the same as the physics use.

I respectfully disagree with this point. The simple fact is, when you start looking for examples that APPLY the physics use of the defintion, you will invariably find them. The contrary is also true. Simply asserting that everyone accepts a definition because you have examples does not make it so - especially when counterexamples exists.

For example, the etymology (above) shows that "pause" originates from and is equal to a stop, and this has been so for longer than the Newtonian physics definition of pause could have existed. "Clearly" this shows that it is the physics camp that is misconstruing the definition

Also, here are specific counter examples:
GOLF: US PATENT 6,500,074: "Of particular relevance to the present invention is the pause at the top of the backswing which is crucial to insure a controlled downswing." Note that the inventor is typically considered one of ordinary skill in the art, which is more than a lay person.

GOLF: Title: Pause at the Top
"Any time there is a 'direction change on a single plane (like a pendulum changing direction at its top of swing) the clubhead speed is ZERO. It is STOPPED at the top. Stopped is certainly a pause." [Where clubhead speed is zero there is a PAUSE]

Further, IMO, most people would believe and understand that a "stop" is LONGER than a "pause." And not the converse. Using this premise, it then follows that a pendulum would "pause" and not "stop" at the top of its swing. Stopping would mean you do not continue your swing, whereas a pause implies you do. Similarly, if you say you stopped working you are done LONGER than if you pause working. At the extreme, if you stop living you are dead, but if you pause living, well, you are still alive arent' you.

Also, using your previous example as a counter example, how many people would you get in each line if you asked folks to queue based on whether they stopped on their backstroke? Would these be different than those in the "pause" example you posed?

The point being, simply finding supporting examples does not make any position more right (or wrong) than another.

Again, with the word pause, I recommend sticking with the common, well established definition. That is, Buddy has a pause at the backstroke. Mizerak didn't.

Why not use Mizerak has a non-zero pause, Buddy has an extended pause? It seems this is also clear.

Most people in physics call the pendulum's maximum amplitude ( or a ball in the air or a mass on a spring or the beating heart at it's biggest) the turning point.

Here you omit the common or lay people mentioned above that ultimately rely on the physics definition (as mentioned). No lay person would say there was a turning point. I believe they would say it either stopped or paused. And if you posed these two choices, you might get more common people NOT choosing stop.

-td
[edited]

 

[9 on the snap]

I understand pool, but I do not understand physics. So in my world physics has no relation to pool.

 

[td873]

blah blah blah.

My own blah.

Is this more accurate? "Everybody stops at the end of their pendulum backswing. Some people also pause."

-td