PayPal "Gifts" and other seller requests

[woody_968]

I have not sold through ebay so I can not comment on that. All I can tell you is that when I get notification that someone paid me through paypal I can go to a bank machine and get the cash.

If I have it deposited in my bank it does take a few days. How they make there money does not bother me in the least. They have a service that is valuable, and what they charge me is a small fee compared to the service and products they provide.

I am not taking a "moral high ground", simply stating the obvious. I have people that pay me as gift without my asking, so I understand it is the buyers choice.

 

[kavik79]

The only way Paypal releases the funds is after the buyer gets an e-mail from Paypal asking if the item was received. Until the buyer responds, the seller has to wait for release of the funds, or ten business days (approx.)without the buyer responding......which ever comes first. CLARIFICATION: That hold on funds is with e-bay purchases and the sale item/identity is known to exist.

I dunno, I've still never seen that happen before. And not really relevant to this topic since eBay sales aren't able to be purchased as a gift option

And keep in mind that the offer of a gift or as a purchase is ultimately decided by the buyer, not the seller. So before assuming the moral high ground on this one, the sellers that make this offer, such as I recently did, are complicit but the buyer is the one that pulls the trigger. If everyone just responded to offers of a gift or purchase always as a purchase, this would be an academic issue......no one would be using the gift option.

Also not entirely right, I'll keep my ground thanks
I sold a set of wheels once for $1,100. The guy sent the money as a gift even after I told him I would cover the fees. I sent it back to him and asked him to re-submit as "goods".
Sending it back gave him time to decide he probably should've spent that money more wisely than on a set of wheels, and ultimately it took me about another 6 months to sell them and in the end I only got $800.
So I lost $300 and waited another 6 months, but I still felt I made the right choice. But that's just me.

Come-on now.....are you naive to think that Paypal would not hold the money a little longer than needed.......do you comprehend the significance between clearing house funds and federal funds (book balances vs collected balances) and its value relationship to selling funds overnite thru the Fed as day loans......just 1-2 days delay on releasing the funds to you nets Paypal huge profits. And please do not talk about morals when it comes to Banking. The long business history of banking is notoriously immoral....doubt me? Ever hear of Andrew Mellon, Rockefeller, even Alexander Hamilton was not without sin and how about even today with Jamie Dimon, CEO, Morgan Chase Bank......Duh?

Oh, I'm sure they hold it longer than needed, my bank isn't the one who takes 4 days to complete a transfer. I'm not saying they don't, what I'm saying is they don't hold it until someone says "It's cool PP, I got my stuff" on every transaction.
The point is, I don't care if PP finds a way to make 100% profit on the money I send through them. Congrats to them for having a successful business. Does there profit margin have anything to do with my side of the transaction? Not at all.
I still agreed on the cut they'd get for their services when I signed up.

Just because we're talking about a historically corrupt field of business, doesn't mean it's okay for me to leave my morals at the door.
For the same reason I'm not returning the condescending jabs you take at my intelligence/naivety while I'm just trying to have a friendly debate.
Will it significantly change the outcome? Nope.
Will it make me feel better about myself? Not really.

If the buyer wants to pay as a gift, that's their decision.

I'll refer you to my story from the second response above.
I have no interest in risking my account status.
When PP suspends your ability to receive (legitimate) gift payments, you're going to tell them it's not your fault because you didn't ask for it that way?

You accepted the payment and shipped the item, you've got equal responsibility there too

 

[Chopdoc]

Than you need a better merchant provider. If I had to pay 2.9% on my shop transactions, I wouldn't take credit cards.

This isn't a bash on Paypal, because they allow people to accept CC's without being a business, but as a merchant, your rates should have been much lower.

Depends on the volume of revenue and your contract.

Don't forget the merchant agreement includes a monthly fee and lots of other "snags" that you don't get with Paypal.

That monthly fee....that was a big decision maker for me.....no monthly fees with Paypal.

In addition there are many things in your merchant agreement you may not be aware of...like your own contractual obligations, responsibilities...and the risks that they actually put on you. When you accept the merchant agreement you accept liability for security and if your terminal, phone network, or computer network is hacked resulting in a loss you may be liable if you didn't provide the security you agreed to...and I promise you that almost 100% of small and medium businesses DO NOT satisfy what they agreed to in this regard. Also, your business insurance is likely not going to cover you for such a loss loss.


The last small company that I addressed these matters for was in violation of their merchant agreement, their business insurance, and some other contracts. Basically they had no idea of the liability they were carrying. We figured it would cost them about another 10-14K per month....at least $120,000 a year to be in compliance with their merchant agreement alone!

So, yeah...I like Paypal. And I advise everybody to read their merchant agreements or get a consultant to do it or a lawyer.

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[kvinbrwr]

Depends on the volume of revenue and your contract.

Don't forget the merchant agreement includes a monthly fee and lots of other "snags" that you don't get with Paypal.

That monthly fee....that was a big decision maker for me.....no monthly fees with Paypal.

In addition there are many things in your merchant agreement you may not be aware of...like your own contractual obligations, responsibilities...and the risks that they actually put on you. When you accept the merchant agreement you accept liability for security and if your terminal, phone network, or computer network is hacked resulting in a loss you may be liable if you didn't provide the security you agreed to...and I promise you that almost 100% of small and medium businesses DO NOT satisfy what they agreed to in this regard. Also, your business insurance is likely not going to cover you for such a loss loss.


The last small company that I addressed these matters for was in violation of their merchant agreement, their business insurance, and some other contracts. Basically they had no idea of the liability they were carrying. We figured it would cost them about another 10-14K per month....at least $120,000 a year to be in compliance with their merchant agreement alone!

So, yeah...I like Paypal. And I advise everybody to read their merchant agreements or get a consultant to do it or a lawyer.

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Yup I'm paying a little less than 2.3% and that's IT. No monthly, no terminal charges, no up fee for Discover.

Plus, I'm working with a payment processor that is set up to process off terminal (keyed in rather than swiped) payments without treating every one as if it is a scam. Plus actually indemnifying me against non receipt charge-backs.

Kevin

 

[kvinbrwr]

The only way Paypal releases the funds is after the buyer gets an e-mail from Paypal asking if the item was received. Until the buyer responds, the seller has to wait for release of the funds, or ten business days (approx.)without the buyer responding......which ever comes first. CLARIFICATION: That hold on funds is with e-bay purchases and the sale item/identity is known to exist.

I bought cues this way and sold cues this way....that's how the system works if the transaction goes thru e-bay. If you just circumvent that and send payment direct thru Paypal, unless you had sufficient funds already deposited in you Paypal account to cover the transaction, the seller does not receive instant availability. Why? Here's how the banking system works......Paypal doesn't even know when you initiate payment instructions if your bank account has sufficient funds available to cover the transaction.

Paypal initiates an electronic debit drawn on your DDA at your bank and until the bank honors it with funds release, Paypal doesn't even know if you have enough money in your bank account to cover it. So Paypal only releases money after it's collected. If the sender happens to have collected funds already available in their "Paypal" account, then and only then does the money get sent to the recipient as immediately available. But if e-bay is involved, the funds do get released until the buyer says the item was received.

And keep in mind that the offer of a gift or as a purchase is ultimately decided by the buyer, not the seller. So before assuming the moral high ground on this one, the sellers that make this offer, such as I recently did, are complicit but the buyer is the one that pulls the trigger. If everyone just responded to offers of a gift or purchase always as a purchase, this would be an academic issue......no one would be using the gift option.

Come-on now.....are you naive to think that Paypal would not hold the money a little longer than needed.......do you comprehend the significance between clearing house funds and federal funds (book balances vs collected balances) and its value relationship to selling funds overnite thru the Fed as day loans......just 1-2 days delay on releasing the funds to you nets Paypal huge profits. And please do not talk about morals when it comes to Banking. The long business history of banking is notoriously immoral....doubt me? Ever hear of Andrew Mellon, Rockefeller, even Alexander Hamilton was not without sin and how about even today with Jamie Dimon, CEO, Morgan Chase Bank......Duh? If the buyer wants to pay as a gift, that's their decision.

I'm afraid you are mistaking the way it worked for you as the way it works. PayPal doesn't hold my funds, they clear payment immediately. I withdraw funds into my bank account and the bank account is credited within 2 business days.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Chopdoc]

Yup I'm paying a little less than 2.3% and that's IT. No monthly, no terminal charges, no up fee for Discover.

Plus, I'm working with a payment processor that is set up to process off terminal (keyed in rather than swiped) without treating everyone as if it is a scam. Plus actually indemnifying me against non receipt charge-backs.

Kevin

That's excellent. The last company I worked with was running their terminal on a network that was unsecured. They thought it was secured, but it was nowhere near what their payment processor required and it was leaving them open to a liability that we estimated to be in the tens of millions.

People most often don't realize the legal responsibility they have to protect the information they gather. It is in fact tremendous.

There are obviously different options. I am glad you found a good one that works for you. Right now Paypal works best for me in part because it integrates with other aspects of my business so well and about 2/3 of my business is conducted online. I am a service based business and do not sell products. It's my time and expertise that I sell.




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[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Depends on the volume of revenue and your contract.

Don't forget the merchant agreement includes a monthly fee and lots of other "snags" that you don't get with Paypal.

That monthly fee....that was a big decision maker for me.....no monthly fees with Paypal.

In addition there are many things in your merchant agreement you may not be aware of...like your own contractual obligations, responsibilities...and the risks that they actually put on you. When you accept the merchant agreement you accept liability for security and if your terminal, phone network, or computer network is hacked resulting in a loss you may be liable if you didn't provide the security you agreed to...and I promise you that almost 100% of small and medium businesses DO NOT satisfy what they agreed to in this regard. Also, your business insurance is likely not going to cover you for such a loss loss.


The last small company that I addressed these matters for was in violation of their merchant agreement, their business insurance, and some other contracts. Basically they had no idea of the liability they were carrying. We figured it would cost them about another 10-14K per month....at least $120,000 a year to be in compliance with their merchant agreement alone!

So, yeah...I like Paypal. And I advise everybody to read their merchant agreements or get a consultant to do it or a lawyer.

.


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I've never paid a monthly fee for processing, nor would I. Those fees are normally added on by an agent/middle man.

I deal direct with the processing company, not with a reselling agent.Dealing with a reseller is another big mistake small businesses make. Yes, the volume needs to be high enough to be direct, but that's not an issue in my case. To be honest, the threshold is so low anymore that almost any business could qualify to go direct. The less hands in my cookie jar, the better.

Any business accepting credit cards on a non-secure, non pci certified system/network deserves to be liable for it. Or any business owner that signs something they don't understand without it being reviewed also needs to be liable.

I see all your points, but I'd much rather pay 85¢ for a debit transaction than 2.9 or even 2.3%. Thats a huge difference on say a $500 sale, and even scarier on a $5000 sale.

Every business is different and what works for me, may not be what you're looking for and vice versa. Internet sales can be a totally different animal, and I totally agree that paypal is a solid option for those transactions.

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

I'm afraid you are mistaking the way it worked for you as the way it works. PayPal doesn't hold my funds, they clear payment immediately. I withdraw funds into my bank account and the bank account is credited within 2 business days.

Thanks

Kevin

Paypal has always been quick on my end as well as far as deposits, and the funds are always instantly available. My only wish would be that I could set paypal to "auto-batch" once a day. That way I couldn't forget to pull the money out. I haven't checked in quite some time, that may be something they now offer. I didn't even know about those cool buttons!

 

[BREEZY B]

I just noticed yesterday when I sent money for a cue that the gift option isn't there anymore. I can either send money as a purchase and it takes the fee's from the person I'm sending money too or It allows me to send money to family/friends and gives me the option to pay the fees or have the fees taken out of the money I'm sending. I have a personal account and I'm clicking the "send money" tab so maybe they moved the gift option under another tab? Anyone else noticed that?

 

[Chopdoc]

Paypal has always been quick on my end as well as far as deposits, and the funds are always instantly available. My only wish would be that I could set paypal to "auto-batch" once a day. That way I couldn't forget to pull the money out. I haven't checked in quite some time, that may be something they now offer. I didn't even know about those cool buttons!

I agree. I wish I could integrate Paypal with a sweep account even...let my money earn some serious interest overnight then move it to the regular accounts at the start of the business day.


There are many such strategies that can really make your money/revenue stream work for you that are not yet part of Paypal. I have a feeling they will come.

Banking without using banks is a really new thing and that's essentially what Paypal is engaged in. It's new territory. There are others but Paypal is blazing a new trail and leading the way for sure.

There are many forms of financial institutions to leverage within your revenue stream, this is just one more option that fits very well for some of us in very modern business models.


The buttons? Yeah. If that's new to you I might suggest having a look again at all that Paypal offers. You might be surprised. As I said, I am only scratching the surface myself and I am using it as a central part of my business.


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[FAST_N_LOOSE]

I just noticed yesterday when I sent money for a cue that the gift option isn't there anymore. I can either send money as a purchase and it takes the fee's from the person I'm sending money too or It allows me to send money to family/friends and gives me the option to pay the fees or have the fees taken out of the money I'm sending. I have a personal account and I'm clicking the "send money" tab so maybe they moved the gift option under another tab? Anyone else noticed that?

To my knowledge, on a personal account you must have funds in your paypal account to send them as a "gift".

 

[BREEZY B]

To my knowledge, on a personal account you must have funds in your paypal account to send them as a "gift".

Correct, but for some reason the option isn't there anymore. Before yesterday it had always been there whether I had money in my account or not. Doesn't matter to me anyway because I never send money as a gift. It's not worth the risk to have your account locked and paypal is a business that provides a service and deserves to be paid for the service they provide. I was just wondering if anyone else noticed that the gift option isn't on there account anymore that's all.

 

[kavik79]

I just noticed yesterday when I sent money for a cue that the gift option isn't there anymore. I can either send money as a purchase and it takes the fee's from the person I'm sending money too or It allows me to send money to family/friends and gives me the option to pay the fees or have the fees taken out of the money I'm sending. I have a personal account and I'm clicking the "send money" tab so maybe they moved the gift option under another tab? Anyone else noticed that?

I just went and looked at that.....I'm not sure what you're seeing, but for me on the send money to family or friends option, it's still free if I send money from my PP balance or transfer from my bank account. Charges me a fee if I'm paying by a credit card.
I'm pretty sure the send to family and friends is the gift option, just re-worded. I think the only new part is the fee for a credit card transaction

 

[kvinbrwr]

Paypal has always been quick on my end as well as far as deposits, and the funds are always instantly available. My only wish would be that I could set paypal to "auto-batch" once a day. That way I couldn't forget to pull the money out. I haven't checked in quite some time, that may be something they now offer. I didn't even know about those cool buttons!

An auto-sweep would be cool. I don't think they have it yet (or I'd be using it).

Thanks

Kevin

 

[kvinbrwr]

I just went and looked at that.....I'm not sure what you're seeing, but for me on the send money to family or friends option, it's still free if I send money from my PP balance or transfer from my bank account. Charges me a fee if I'm paying by a credit card.
I'm pretty sure the send to family and friends is the gift option, just re-worded. I think the only new part is the fee for a credit card transaction

Ever since they rolled out the personal payment gift option, its functioned the same for me, no fees to make a payment that way out of PayPal funds or my linked bank account, and fees charged if I use a credit card. I think I always have the option of assigning the fees to myself or the recipient.

Perhaps we are finding another feature that differs from account to account.

Kevin

 

[kavik79]

Ever since they rolled out the personal payment gift option, its functioned the same for me, no fees to make a payment that way out of PayPal funds or my linked bank account, and fees charged if I use a credit card. I think I always have the option of assigning the fees to myself or the recipient.

Perhaps we are finding another feature that differs from account to account.

Kevin

Or, in my case at least, maybe I just never really noticed before lol
I've only used it a couple of times myself

 

[kvinbrwr]

For me its been a convenient way to accept credit card payments. I realize for people that aren't merchants, it may be just about the only way they can accept these payments and I've also seen that people that have never had to have merchant agreements with banks before are very unfamiliar with the terms of those agreements. Most of the complaints I've seen people make about PayPal are about terms that are quite standard in any credit card processing agreements. PayPal for example, has to sign Master Card's paper, so they have to do business to Master Card's specifications. Railing against PayPal for this is short-sighted.

However, what I REALLY like PayPal for is paying people online. Depending on the commodities markets, I buy between $1000s to 10s of $1000s of dollars of goods a month, sight unseen, from people I haven't met, can't vet, and will never deal with again. PayPal allows me to use a credit card to pay those people and gives me all the security and guarantees in online transactions that MC, Visa and AmEx make to their customers. The most beneficial of these guarantees is you will never have to pay for goods you didn't receive.

Not saying this is the only solution, but:

If AZ would demand that all cue sellers only accept PayPal for payment, and if every buyer would properly pay for online items with PayPal funded by a credit card, the "I was ripped off" threads in the For Sale section would cease.

Thanks

Kevin

 

[Chopdoc]

For me its been a convenient way to accept credit card payments. I realize for people that aren't merchants, it may be just about the only way they can accept these payments and I've also seen that people that have never had to have merchant agreements with banks before are very unfamiliar with the terms of those agreements. Most of the complaints I've seen people make about PayPal are about terms that are quite standard in any credit card processing agreements. PayPal for example, has to sign Master Card's paper, so they have to do business to Master Card's specifications. Railing against PayPal for this is short-sighted.

However, what I REALLY like PayPal for is paying people online. Depending on the commodities markets, I buy between $1000s to 10s of $1000s of dollars of goods a month, sight unseen, from people I haven't met, can't vet, and will never deal with again. PayPal allows me to use a credit card to pay those people and gives me all the security and guarantees in online transactions that MC, Visa and AmEx make to their customers. The most beneficial of these guarantees is you will never have to pay for goods you didn't receive.

Not saying this is the only solution, but:

If AZ would demand that all cue sellers only accept PayPal for payment, and if every buyer would properly pay for online items with PayPal funded by a credit card, the "I was ripped off" threads in the For Sale section would cease.

Thanks

Kevin

Well said.

In addition, I see a lot of "stylizing" and "creativity" in transactions around here. People have their reasons for doing strange things but almost inevitably it introduces increased risks and costs where they think they are minimizing risks and costs. I am astounded sometimes by how people want to handle transactions and/or how they refuse to do transactions here in these forums.



Straightforward transactions with good communication. That's the best. Paypal does in fact fit very well into this simple scheme.




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[kvinbrwr]

Well said.

In addition, I see a lot of "stylizing" and "creativity" in transactions around here. People have their reasons for doing strange things but almost inevitably it introduces increased risks and costs where they think they are minimizing risks and costs. I am astounded sometimes by how people want to handle transactions and/or how they refuse to do transactions here in these forums.



Straightforward transactions with good communication. That's the best. Paypal does in fact fit very well into this simple scheme.




.

Yeah we are all pool players and I guess inclined to "work the angles". Unfortunately that's a poor way to do business and when things go bad you end up realizing the one you worked was yourself.

Then the "remedy" is to come screaming to the forum for help wondering is anyone here can go up to the culprit's house in some location or another.

What blows my mind is anyone that spends any amount of time here at AZ would never say that the community here is a positive thinking sort, yet, guy after guy after guy here does business with complete strangers without ever once contemplating or discussing what to do if things go wrong. The buyer assumes one set of facts, the seller assumes a completely different set, and everything is just fine as long as everything is fine.