Pendulum stroke questions

[7stud]

In Dr Dave's video 10 Secrets of a GOOD STROKE in Pool, he shows some video of Samm Diep:

It's clear that she drops her elbow on the back stroke, presumably to keep the butt of the cue moving in a straight line. If you look at the picture frame on the wall behind Sam Diep's elbow, her elbow starts out in the middle of the picture frame, then on her backstroke her elbow drops beIow the bottom of the picture frame, then on her forward stroke her elbow rises to about even with the bottom of the picture frame. So, her elbow is moving up and down during the backstroke and the forward stroke. As far as I can tell, in order to NOT drop your elbow on the back stroke with a pendulum stroke, the butt of the cue has to move upwards--not move back in a straight line.

At the end of the video, there are examples of good pendulum strokes, like a clip of Allison Fisher, and she also drops her elbow on the backstroke:

but unlike Sam Diep, I don't think her elbow rises during the transition and forward stroke. It seems to me that both of them are using a piston stroke (= do whatever it takes with your elbow/shoulder to keep the cue level) on the backstroke, then using a pendulum stroke(?) on the forward stroke.

Questions:

1. Should someone trying to learn the pendulum stroke strive to keep their elbow from moving up or down on the backstroke?

2. How does the forward movement of the cue come to a stop? To me, it does not look like Samm Diep or Allison Fisher hits their chest with their hand, yet the cue seems to come to an abrupt halt.

3. When I try a pendulum stroke with my chin about 2 inches above the cue, my hand follows through and hits my chest (because I don't know how else to stop the cue), and the cue whacks me in the chin. I have to move my chin about 4 inches above the cue to avoid needing stitches. Yet, Samm Diep and Allison Fisher touch their chins to the top of the cue, and they don't get whacked in the chin. I think that's because they stop their follow through before the butt of the cue starts rising, like with the forward motion of a pendulum, but how do you stop your follow through?

4. If you stop your follow through before your hand hits your chest, are you really using a pendulum stroke? Unless the butt of the cue rises after you hit the cue ball, there is no pendulum motion.

Thanks

 

[RickLafayette]

Good observation. Been saying this for years. Ideally, your back stroke should be a piston stroke and your forward stroke should be a piston stroke upon contact with the cue ball. On a break shot what changes is that upon contact with the cue ball, your hand should raise toward your chest as the tip drops towards the table. This accomplishes complete power to the cue ball.
One thing some instructors forget or ignore is that everybody's anatomy is different and there are some who cannot be taught the same as others. This also applies to stance.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Good observation. Been saying this for years. Ideally, your back stroke should be a piston stroke and your forward stroke should be a piston stroke upon contact with the cue ball. On a break shot what changes is that upon contact with the cue ball, your hand should raise toward your chest as the tip drops towards the table. This accomplishes complete power to the cue ball.
One thing some instructors forget or ignore is that everybody's anatomy is different and there are some who cannot be taught the same as others. This also applies to stance.

In my opinion, this is true for all strokes, not just the break shot - on your follow-through after contact, your hand/butt raises and your tip drops. I’ve always thought that players that had their chin directly down on their cue at address will have a very hard time having a correct follow through without dropping their elbow, moving their head up and/or not having a complete enough follow through.

 

[MattPoland]

I feel like the whole elbow thing gets too much attention. I think it’s most important to hit the cueball on your final delivery exactly where you intended when you were first addressing the cueball.

It seems first important that your head, shoulders, chest, hips and knees are solid and stable. Any movement there and you’ve lost alignment and hoping your shot goes anyway.

Second I think you need to transition your muscle groups from backstroke to delivery seamlessly without any tension that messes your alignment.

Third you need to keep all that in place and then be able to comfortably control your power and stroke through the ball as you intended without jeopardizing any of the things mentioned before.

You can do that with a goofy cyclical stroke, a relaxed pendulum stroke or a concerted piston stroke. I think you don’t need to think about your elbow at all. I think you need to do stroke drills emphasizing follow through to build muscle memory and then bring that to your shooting. Whatever elbow style that manifests is what’s right for you.

 

[ShootingArts]

Stroking into a narrow necked bottle or tube has done tons to booger up strokes. Stroking through a channel that allows the cue to move up and down normally is a much better training tool.

Hu

 

[mikemosconi]

I believe that there are many aspects of the pre shot routine, body alignment, eye movement, cue ball address, and final stroke to post shot that are all more important than worrying about one's elbow position through all of this. Just my own observations through the years.

I see most very successful pool players actually finish their shot on the table with the cue stick aligned straight to their aiming point and "through" the cue ball - I also notice most of them have some degree of elbow drop- rarely see a perfect pendulum stroke performed on the majority of shots.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Stroking into a narrow necked bottle or tube has done tons to booger up strokes. Stroking through a channel that allows the cue to move up and down normally is a much better training tool.

Hu

One player recommended an old-style matchbox on its side as the gate. That allows up-and-down variation but not side-to-side. Hard to find those now, but easy to make something similar from a 3x5 card.

As for the bottle drill, if you want a soft piston stroke it might be OK but usually there is some deviation required on power shots.

 

[MattPoland]

One player recommended an old-style matchbox on its side as the gate. That allows up-and-down variation but not side-to-side. Hard to find those now, but easy to make something similar from a 3x5 card.

As for the bottle drill, if you want a soft piston stroke it might be OK but usually there is some deviation required on power shots.

I like stroke drills that involve striking the ball. I just don’t buy into the idea that any form of free air stroking practice will translate to on-the-table results.

 

[The_JV]

1. Should someone trying to learn the pendulum stroke strive to keep their elbow from moving up or down on the backstroke?

Yes... Some (most?) will say that you don't need to worry about the vertical plane of the cue nearly as much because hitting high/low will not squirt the CB off your shot line. However what a loopy stroke does for you is introduce timing into your mechanics relative to the CB contact. Cue on a flat plane, and this is now a non-issue.

Is there much to be gained...? I can only speak for myself, but I know that whenever things are going bad I can roll back to my strict fundamentals and flat cueing, and get right back to where I need to be within a single game. I take comfort in that and consider it an advantage.

2. How does the forward movement of the cue come to a stop? To me, it does not look like Samm Diep or Allison Fisher hits their chest with their hand, yet the cue seems to come to an abrupt halt.

I power shots I hit the side of my chest with my wrist.

3. When I try a pendulum stroke with my chin about 2 inches above the cue, my hand follows through and hits my chest (because I don't know how else to stop the cue), and the cue whacks me in the chin. I have to move my chin about 4 inches above the cue to avoid needing stitches. Yet, Samm Diep and Allison Fisher touch their chins to the top of the cue, and they don't get whacked in the chin. I think that's because they stop their follow through before the butt of the cue starts rising, like with the forward motion of a pendulum, but how do you stop your follow through?

I rest my chin and chest on the cue throughout the shot. Power or not. My mechanics are such that my wrist and grip loosen at the end of the follow through. This allows the cue to maintain it's flat path.

4. If you stop your follow through before your hand hits your chest, are you really using a pendulum stroke? Unless the butt of the cue rises after you hit the cue ball, there is no pendulum motion.

You're splitting unnecessary hairs imo. The concept of the "pendulum" is the stationary hinge at your elbow allowing your arm to swing. Because you allow you grip and wrist to control the height of the butt as you move through the swing doesn't mean you forearm isn't moving like a pendulum.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I like stroke drills that involve striking the ball. I just don’t buy into the idea that any form of free air stroking practice will translate to on-the-table results.

I agree with this in general. If you have developed bad habits but they usually get the ball into the pocket, it is hard to get rid of them by a practice that has nothing to do with getting the ball into the pocket. Under pressure you are likely to revert to your old ways.That's why it's important to avoid developing bad habits in the first place.

 

[dr_dave]

In Dr Dave's video 10 Secrets of a GOOD STROKE in Pool, he shows some video of Samm Diep:

It's clear that she drops her elbow on the back stroke, presumably to keep the butt of the cue moving in a straight line. If you look at the picture frame on the wall behind Sam Diep's elbow, her elbow starts out in the middle of the picture frame, then on her backstroke her elbow drops beIow the bottom of the picture frame, then on her forward stroke her elbow rises to about even with the bottom of the picture frame. So, her elbow is moving up and down during the backstroke and the forward stroke. As far as I can tell, in order to NOT drop your elbow on the back stroke with a pendulum stroke, the butt of the cue has to move upwards--not move back in a straight line.

At the end of the video, there are examples of good pendulum strokes, like a clip of Allison Fisher, and she also drops her elbow on the backstroke:

but unlike Sam Diep, I don't think her elbow rises during the transition and forward stroke. It seems to me that both of them are using a piston stroke (= do whatever it takes with your elbow/shoulder to keep the cue level) on the backstroke, then using a pendulum stroke(?) on the forward stroke.

Questions:

1. Should someone trying to learn the pendulum stroke strive to keep their elbow from moving up or down on the backstroke?

2. How does the forward movement of the cue come to a stop? To me, it does not look like Samm Diep or Allison Fisher hits their chest with their hand, yet the cue seems to come to an abrupt halt.

3. When I try a pendulum stroke with my chin about 2 inches above the cue, my hand follows through and hits my chest (because I don't know how else to stop the cue), and the cue whacks me in the chin. I have to move my chin about 4 inches above the cue to avoid needing stitches. Yet, Samm Diep and Allison Fisher touch their chins to the top of the cue, and they don't get whacked in the chin. I think that's because they stop their follow through before the butt of the cue starts rising, like with the forward motion of a pendulum, but how do you stop your follow through?

4. If you stop your follow through before your hand hits your chest, are you really using a pendulum stroke? Unless the butt of the cue rises after you hit the cue ball, there is no pendulum motion.

Thanks

The phrase "elbow drop" usually refers to a large amount of elbow drop resulting from significant shoulder motion, used to exaggerate the follow through. There are disadvantages to such an approach for many players, per the videos and info here:

elbow drop advantages and disadvantages​

I would certainly not consider a small amount of elbow drop after the hit an "elbow drop" problem. Now, if somebody is dropping their elbow during the forward stroke into the CB (even a small amount), then that is a different matter. And if the elbow drop (and possible "chicken wing" motion that sometimes comes with elbow drop) is affecting cue direction or tip contact point accuracy or consistency, then I would advise that person to try to eliminate or minimize the drop. Several ideas for how to do this can be found on the linked resource page under "How can I get rid of elbow drop?"

 

[BilliardsAbout]

In Dr Dave's video 10 Secrets of a GOOD STROKE in Pool, he shows some video of Samm Diep:

It's clear that she drops her elbow on the back stroke, presumably to keep the butt of the cue moving in a straight line. If you look at the picture frame on the wall behind Sam Diep's elbow, her elbow starts out in the middle of the picture frame, then on her backstroke her elbow drops beIow the bottom of the picture frame, then on her forward stroke her elbow rises to about even with the bottom of the picture frame. So, her elbow is moving up and down during the backstroke and the forward stroke. As far as I can tell, in order to NOT drop your elbow on the back stroke with a pendulum stroke, the butt of the cue has to move upwards--not move back in a straight line.

At the end of the video, there are examples of good pendulum strokes, like a clip of Allison Fisher, and she also drops her elbow on the backstroke:

but unlike Sam Diep, I don't think her elbow rises during the transition and forward stroke. It seems to me that both of them are using a piston stroke (= do whatever it takes with your elbow/shoulder to keep the cue level) on the backstroke, then using a pendulum stroke(?) on the forward stroke.

Questions:

1. Should someone trying to learn the pendulum stroke strive to keep their elbow from moving up or down on the backstroke?

2. How does the forward movement of the cue come to a stop? To me, it does not look like Samm Diep or Allison Fisher hits their chest with their hand, yet the cue seems to come to an abrupt halt.

3. When I try a pendulum stroke with my chin about 2 inches above the cue, my hand follows through and hits my chest (because I don't know how else to stop the cue), and the cue whacks me in the chin. I have to move my chin about 4 inches above the cue to avoid needing stitches. Yet, Samm Diep and Allison Fisher touch their chins to the top of the cue, and they don't get whacked in the chin. I think that's because they stop their follow through before the butt of the cue starts rising, like with the forward motion of a pendulum, but how do you stop your follow through?

4. If you stop your follow through before your hand hits your chest, are you really using a pendulum stroke? Unless the butt of the cue rises after you hit the cue ball, there is no pendulum motion.

Thanks

You are observant, that's good. Most pros do not use pure pendulum strokes. Not worth emulating for most amateurs either.

 

[dr_dave]

The phrase "elbow drop" usually refers to a large amount of elbow drop resulting from significant shoulder motion, used to exaggerate the follow through. There are disadvantages to such an approach for many players, per the videos and info here:

elbow drop advantages and disadvantages​

I would certainly not consider a small amount of elbow drop after the hit an "elbow drop" problem. Now, if somebody is dropping their elbow during the forward stroke into the CB (even a small amount), then that is a different matter. And if the elbow drop (and possible "chicken wing" motion that sometimes comes with elbow drop) is affecting cue direction or tip contact point accuracy or consistency, then I would advise that person to try to eliminate or minimize the drop. Several ideas for how to do this can be found on the linked resource page under "How can I get rid of elbow drop?"

On the flip side, if a player can drop their elbow a very consistent amount (before CB contact) and do so with proper and consistent timing, and the cue consistently remains very straight during the stroke, I certainly would not suggest they change anything, even if they have a large elbow drop after tip-CB contact.

 

[DynoDan]

The phrase "elbow drop" usually refers to a large amount of elbow drop resulting from significant shoulder motion, used to exaggerate the follow through. There are disadvantages to such an approach for many players, per the videos and info here:

elbow drop advantages and disadvantages​

I would certainly not consider a small amount of elbow drop after the hit an "elbow drop" problem. Now, if somebody is dropping their elbow during the forward stroke into the CB (even a small amount), then that is a different matter. And if the elbow drop (and possible "chicken wing" motion that sometimes comes with elbow drop) is affecting cue direction or tip contact point accuracy or consistency, then I would advise that person to try to eliminate or minimize the drop. Several ideas for how to do this can be found on the linked resource page under "How can I get rid of elbow drop?"

Just curious, but is there specific terminology to describe that occasional unconscious impulse to correct (thus resulting ‘over-correction’) poor aim at the last second by twisting the butt sideways just as the tip contacts? Always reminds me of another common impulse (when first learning to play) to chase the CB with a second strike after miscuing. Got past the latter eventually, but still not the former.

 

[dr_dave]

Just curious, but is there specific terminology to describe that occasional unconscious impulse to correct (thus resulting ‘over-correction’) poor aim at the last second by twisting the butt sideways just as the tip contacts? Always reminds me of another common impulse (when first learning to play) to chase the CB with a second strike after miscuing. Got past the latter eventually, but still not the former.

The only labels I can think of are "subconscious adjustment" or "body english" or "bad technique" or "bad habit."

 

[dquarasr]

I’ve been meaning to ask a question along these lines so this is the perfect thread in which to ask.

Many videos of people like Busti, SVB, and ER, show their practice strokes like an old steam locomotive’s arm on the drive wheel: the cue tip travels in an ellipse, up and down, yet the tip is delivered in the “real” stroke nearly exactly on the intended contact point (follow or draw). I am mesmerized and baffled how the practice strokes can be so divergent from the “business” stroke.

Any explanation reconciling this are welcome!

 

[dr_dave]

I’ve been meaning to ask a question along these lines so this is the perfect thread in which to ask.

Many videos of people like Busti, SVB, and ER, show their practice strokes like an old steam locomotive’s arm on the drive wheel: the cue tip travels in an ellipse, up and down, yet the tip is delivered in the “real” stroke nearly exactly on the intended contact point (follow or draw). I am mesmerized and baffled how the practice strokes can be so divergent from the “business” stroke.

Any explanation reconciling this are welcome!

Some people use a pumping motion to get loose and relaxed before the shot, but they usually keep the elbow more still on the final stroke to achieve tip contact point accuracy (especially on shots that require tip contact point accuracy like stun and draw shots ... watch Shane's elbow during the stroke into the ball on these types of shots and you will see a very still elbow).

 

[ShootingArts]

I’ve been meaning to ask a question along these lines so this is the perfect thread in which to ask.

Many videos of people like Busti, SVB, and ER, show their practice strokes like an old steam locomotive’s arm on the drive wheel: the cue tip travels in an ellipse, up and down, yet the tip is delivered in the “real” stroke nearly exactly on the intended contact point (follow or draw). I am mesmerized and baffled how the practice strokes can be so divergent from the “business” stroke.

Any explanation reconciling this are welcome!

Some even stroke to the side of the cue ball and low, saying it gives them a better look at the shot. Then on the final forward stroke they do something almost entirely different. Seems like a bad practice until I consider some of the best in the world are doing it! Bad practice for me and for them obviously isn't the same thing!(grin)

Hu

 

[ChrisinNC]

Some even stroke to the side of the cue ball and low, saying it gives them a better look at the shot. Then on the final forward stroke they do something almost entirely different. Seems like a bad practice until I consider some of the best in the world are doing it! Bad practice for me and for them obviously isn't the same thing!(grin)

Hu

I can’t say I’ve ever seen a good player take his practice strokes to the left or the right of the cue ball before their final stroke.

We do have some players that address the cue tip high on the cue ball on their practice strokes even before delivering a draw stroke - very strange in my opinion.

 

[DynoDan]

I can’t say I’ve ever seen a good player take his practice strokes to the left or the right of the cue ball before their final stroke.

Many years ago, I used to break 9 ball (from the headrail) that way. Likely a way to compensate for the consistently inaccurate strike that resulted when loading up with max. effort.
I would aim to the left of the CB but contact more right center when trying to kill it. A vague similarity to the way bowlers throw a curve-ball strike (?). Eventually abandoned for a controlled/square hit on the one ball from the side rail (consistent wing ball).