Pendulum Stroke vs. Elbow Drop

Thanks Joey for the video link. He definitely drops the elbow on that last stroke. I just shot a rack and I seem to do the same thing. I never really noticed it. Maybe I'm just doing it because I'm thinking about it now. I tape myself on occasion, so I'll have to go back to some video and look for it.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Not correct.
Slip-stroke is holding the cue a little forward, then before pulling the cue one last time, you slip the grip hand back towards the rear, pull then shoot.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but "slip stroke" is when you let the cue slip forward in your hand to ensure follow through.

I don't know how what you describe is called it could be "slip stroke" as well.....

What happens here is upon aiming foe the shot and taking practice stroke you hold the cue in a point where your elbow is at 90 degrees when contacting the CB. By moving the hand backwards on the final stroke there is more of the cue to pass the contact point and you accelerate more.
 
Sorry, to clarify, I meant that I slip my hand back, not drop the elbow. I don't seem to drop the elbow much at all. Maybe this is a good thing.
 
With all due respect, Dale...the real issue is WHEN does the movement of the elbow begin? Before contact, at contact, or after contact? If it's AFTER contact, there's much less chance of missing where you're aiming, on the CB. When it's before, or at contact, the chances of missing where you're aiming increase exponentially, because the tip moves off-line slightly. So, many of the old timers, who moved the elbow the way you describe, were either doing it after they hit the CB (where it had no effect on their aim)...or they had some kind of innate natural ability (to do something completely different). By-in-large, even most of the old time players understood the concept of taking the weight of the cue, and using timing to create the stroke speed...not muscle! That means "loose" grip!

When you watch today's pros drop their elbow on a shot, it's extremely likely that they're doing it after contact with the CB. Most of us mortals don't possess that perfect timing. So we begin the movement (of the shoulder) too early, causing small errors in the stroke, which are then magnified, as it's delivered through the CB. I haven't had the pleasure of watching George Rood play. I simply must get back to Dayton, and play some with him!

For, far and away, the HUGE majority of us, the pendulum swing still rules...because that's what you get, when you drop the elbow AFTER contact with the CB (as long as you FINISH your stroke)! It doesn't matter, because you're striking the CB much more accurately...and you're using the same stroke for every shot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

pdcue said:
Joey,

If you recall, we have discussed George Rood in the past.
George would follow thru with his whole arm on virtually EVERY shot.

If you wonder about the infamous 'elbow drop' question,
just watch any tournament of top level Straight Pool and see
what the players do on break balls and shots where they open
clusters.

Dale
Click to expand...
 
I shot a couple of racks, and there is DEFINITELY a difference between slip-stroke and "stroke slip" as Joey says. I slip stroke (actually I slip my grip a little further back on each warm up stroke it seems) and sometimes I "stroke-slip."
 
skor said:
The purpose of following through is to make sure that the player is accelerating the movement of the cue as contacting the cue ball.

Followthrough is not something you MAKE happen. Followthrough HAPPENS because you finish your stroke correctly!:D

Our body mechanics will only allow us to move the cue forward to a point while using the pendulum stroke.

Correct...and that's why we teach that every person has their own "finish point". Once you understand the range of motion, and how your arm works, with your body, you can train yourself to contract your bicep at any speed you want...from a lag to a break!

If further movement is required for better acceleration (like on extreme draw or extreme follow) then dropping the elbow is a must!

I disagree, that dropping the elbow is a must, for extreme draw, or extreme follow! It's not necessary, when you understand how to take the weight of the cue, and timing, to create the speed of the stroke. The fastest possible movement is ONE muscle...the bicep, and it has a very specific range of motion. The shoulder is an entire group of muscles, and as such, cannot move anywhere near the speed of contracting just one muscle! Add to that, there are more errors in grip pressure, when you move your shoulder. By limiting the stroke to one muscle, you increase accuracy dramatically, and can easily learn subtle changes in velocity.

Slipping the cue will allow the cue to move past the point that our body allow us, so in a way it does what dropping the elbow do.

Perhaps...however, letting the cue slip through your grip hand is extremely difficult to do with any kind of accurate consistency.

Both technics will work great once the player is able to control them. Whether to use one over the other is matter of personal preference and comfort.

Actually, the third option is the best...stick with the pendulum for everything...even the break!:D

Beginners should stick to the pendulum stroke without dropping the elbow or "slipping" the cue as they should focus more on delivering a straight and smooth stroke first.

Substitute ALL PLAYERS, for Beginners, and you've got a good quote! Every word in there is true!

Sorry about the long post :o
Click to expand...

No problem! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Last edited:
Scott Lee said:
I disagree, that dropping the elbow is a must, for extreme draw, or extreme follow! The fastest possible movement is ONE muscle...the bicep, and it has a very specific range of motion. The shoulder is an entire group of muscles, and as such, cannot move anywhere near the speed of contracting just one muscle! Add to that, there are more errors in grip pressure, when you move your shoulder.
Click to expand...

Take it from the master himself......
X-treme draw
 
You see? That's what I'm talking about. No disrespect to Mike Massey...he's a longtime friend of mine. However, Mike doesn't start moving his shoulder until AFTER he hits the CB. You can see that clearly in the video. So, imo, you don't have to drop the elbow, if you have a fast, smooth delivery. Mike Massey's stroke is more powerful than almost anyone's. Yet you can easily see how he uses only the cue, to make that power draw shot. Since the dwell time between the tip and the CB is only a thousandth of a second or two, nothing you can do further, with your arm, does anything to change the outcome of what happens with the CB. The CB is already gone, BEFORE Mike starts dropping his elbow.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

skor said:
Take it from the master himself......
X-treme draw
Click to expand...
 
JoeyInCali said:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Foa-lVwnfv0
Check the end of that video.
Click to expand...

That last shot is possibly the best example of a sophisticated slip stroke that I've seen on film/video. I had the chance to see Cornbread Red hundreds of times up close and he could control it on a finesse shot the length of a snooker table. That being said, and it's a beautiful thing, I think that it's something that I never should have started. It's just too complicated. There's more that can go wrong.

Same thing for the elbow drop.

Gotta go. Time for work...:( ...Tom
 
Scott Lee said:
You see? That's what I'm talking about. No disrespect to Mike Massey...he's a longtime friend of mine. However, Mike doesn't start moving his shoulder until AFTER he hits the CB. You can see that clearly in the video. So, imo, you don't have to drop the elbow, if you have a fast, smooth delivery. Mike Massey's stroke is more powerful than almost anyone's. Yet you can easily see how he uses only the cue, to make that power draw shot. Since the dwell time between the tip and the CB is only a thousandth of a second or two, nothing you can do further, with your arm, does anything to change the outcome of what happens with the CB. The CB is already gone, BEFORE Mike starts dropping his elbow.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I agree that the elbow drops after the cue hits the CB. I didn't mean to drop it before.... sorry if I was misunderstood.

This brings me back to first sentence:
The purpose of following through is to make sure that the player is accelerating the movement of the cue as contacting the cue ball.
Click to expand...

In martial art, you learn to throw a punch by not aiming at your opponent but aiming at the wall behind him. This will ensure that upon contact the speed and energy of the punch is in its highest.

Same goes to pool, by following through (aiming to reach a further away point) we ensure that the CB will be hit at the intended speed - the maximum speed of the stroke, by dropping the elbow, even after contact you allow a better follow through and a more leveled movement.

Since at contact point the elbow is at 90 degrees (at least that what the instructors teach), the speed of the swing is decreasing past this point so upon contact you actually slowing down.
By dropping the elbow pass the 90 degrees point you take the bicep out of the equation so it won't lock and let the movement forward continue.
Or you could do what we saw in the video that JoeyInCali posted. By slipping backwards, the elbow angle at contact is grater then 90 degrees so the cue is accelerating during contact.

You can avoid it all (dropping or slipping) by just adjusting the point of grip to be further back to begin with so the elbow angle would be greater the 90 degrees at contact.
 
randyg said:
Do either long enough and we can get very proficient at it......SPF=randyg
Click to expand...


Like randy said. Do anything long enough and youll get good at it. Look at keiths sidearm stroke.

Theres an old golf saying "beware of the man with a bad grip, cause hes figured out how to make it work" :)
 
skor said:
I agree that the elbow drops after the cue hits the CB. I didn't mean to drop it before.... sorry if I was misunderstood.

This brings me back to first sentence:


In martial art, you learn to throw a punch by not aiming at your opponent but aiming at the wall behind him. This will ensure that upon contact the speed and energy of the punch is in its highest.

Same goes to pool, by following through (aiming to reach a further away point) we ensure that the CB will be hit at the intended speed - the maximum speed of the stroke, by dropping the elbow, even after contact you allow a better follow through and a more leveled movement.

Since at contact point the elbow is at 90 degrees (at least that what the instructors teach), the speed of the swing is decreasing past this point so upon contact you actually slowing down.
By dropping the elbow pass the 90 degrees point you take the bicep out of the equation so it won't lock and let the movement forward continue.
Or you could do what we saw in the video that JoeyInCali posted. By slipping backwards, the elbow angle at contact is grater then 90 degrees so the cue is accelerating during contact.

You can avoid it all (dropping or slipping) by just adjusting the point of grip to be further back to begin with so the elbow angle would be greater the 90 degrees at contact.
Click to expand...


SKOR: If Mr. Massey can get that much power draw with that much follow through, how much draw can he get with a 25 inch follow through.

Mike did not drop his elbow on that video until after the fact. Once we strike the cueball it's gone. Longer follow through is ficticious and does not stand up under physics....,.SPF=randyg
 
Bob, Randy, Scott, or?,

Why did some of the earlier instructional books (and at least one of the more recent ones) on Pool, suggest that the player "drop his elbow" upon finishing the stroke?
 
randyg said:
SKOR: If Mr. Massey can get that much power draw with that much follow through, how much draw can he get with a 25 inch follow through.

Mike did not drop his elbow on that video until after the fact. Once we strike the cueball it's gone. Longer follow through is ficticious and does not stand up under physics....,.SPF=randyg
Click to expand...

I agree with Randy.

But if you look a little more carefully at the last ten seconds of the video (the slow motion stroke),

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg

you'll see that Mr. Massey actually raises his elbow an inch or two on the backstroke and then lowers it a similar amount on the forward stroke.

What Mr. Massey is doing, imo, is getting a little bit of pivot about his shoulder to contribute a little bit to the speed of the shot.

Where Mr. Massey differs from virtually all of us, including most pros, is that he is able to do these subtle things to get the benefit of increased stick speed without paying a bigger price on the tip-ball contact point.

The longer follow through (the major elbow drop) occurs after contact and contributes nothing to the shot. But I believe it's more comfortable for him because even though his forearm is essentially vertical at contact, he already has some motion about the shoulder.

In any case if a person's goal is to win international draw shot competitions, then he or she might, eventually, benefit from such techniques.

But if a person's goal is merely to become a world class pool player, then I see no reason to mess with this sort of thing at the expense of other more productive uses of his or her time
 
klockdoc said:
Bob, Randy, Scott, or?,

Why did some of the earlier instructional books (and at least one of the more recent ones) on Pool, suggest that the player "drop his elbow" upon finishing the stroke?
Click to expand...


I would like to know the same thing. Maybe "old school" ideas. Let's ask the authors:-)....SPF=randyg
 
mikepage said:
I agree with Randy.

But if you look a little more carefully at the last ten seconds of the video (the slow motion stroke),

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg

you'll see that Mr. Massey actually raises his elbow an inch or two on the backstroke and then lowers it a similar amount on the forward stroke.

What Mr. Massey is doing, imo, is getting a little bit of pivot about his shoulder to contribute a little bit to the speed of the shot.

Where Mr. Massey differs from virtually all of us, including most pros, is that he is able to do these subtle things to get the benefit of increased stick speed without paying a bigger price on the tip-ball contact point.

The longer follow through (the major elbow drop) occurs after contact and contributes nothing to the shot. But I believe it's more comfortable for him because even though his forearm is essentially vertical at contact, he already has some motion about the shoulder.

In any case if a person's goal is to win international draw shot competitions, then he or she might, eventually, benefit from such techniques.

But if a person's goal is merely to become a world class pool player, then I see no reason to mess with this sort of thing at the expense of other more productive uses of his or her time
Click to expand...



TAP TAP TAP. Well stated...randyg
 
OK, I'll try it again one more time (and no more...)

anything that happens after the cue ball has left the tip will not affect the shot!

I guess we all agree on that one.

BUT, if you want to move the CB at a certain speed then it has be hit with that speed (actually a bit faster because some of the energy is lost upon the contact and due to the friction of the cloth).

If you do not follow through then you are slowing down as you hit the cue ball, so the cue ball will not moved at the desired speed.
You can start with a higher speed and hope that you'll hit the CB with the desired speed but that's just waist of energy and you can't play good pool like that for many hours.

OR you can accelerate your stroke and make sure you hit the CB at the desired speed. If you can stop the cue movement right there on the spot then do so, but you can't!!!

To get more "action" from the cue ball, you need to hit it faster, to do so you need to accelerate more which will resolve with following through to a greater distance (just like a car will take longer to break on higher driving speed). If you can't accomplish that distance and the cue stopped its movement before then you didn't accelerate enough. Since the pendulum stroke will only allow you acceleration to a certain point, you must drop the elbow to allow the full acceleration (or slip the grip backwards).
 
Scott Lee said:
With all due respect, Dale...the real issue is WHEN does the movement of the elbow begin? Before contact, at contact, or after contact? If it's AFTER contact, there's much less chance of missing where you're aiming, on the CB. When it's before, or at contact, the chances of missing where you're aiming increase exponentially, because the tip moves off-line slightly. So, many of the old timers, who moved the elbow the way you describe, were either doing it after they hit the CB (where it had no effect on their aim)...or they had some kind of innate natural ability (to do something completely different). By-in-large, even most of the old time players understood the concept of taking the weight of the cue, and using timing to create the stroke speed...not muscle! That means "loose" grip!

When you watch today's pros drop their elbow on a shot, it's extremely likely that they're doing it after contact with the CB. Most of us mortals don't possess that perfect timing. So we begin the movement (of the shoulder) too early, causing small errors in the stroke, which are then magnified, as it's delivered through the CB. I haven't had the pleasure of watching George Rood play. I simply must get back to Dayton, and play some with him!

For, far and away, the HUGE majority of us, the pendulum swing still rules...because that's what you get, when you drop the elbow AFTER contact with the CB (as long as you FINISH your stroke)! It doesn't matter, because you're striking the CB much more accurately...and you're using the same stroke for every shot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

OK, what about Mr. Ulrich's elbow drop? Just curious as to when you think his elbow is dropping.
http://propoolvideo.com/florida-pro-tour/fl-pro-tour---m.-davis-v.-l.-ulrich.html
JoeyA
 
skor...I'm happy to hear that this your last "try" here...because you simply do not understand the concept of the pendulum swing correctly. In a perfect pendulum swing, the cuestick is accelerating THROUGH the end of the range on motion (which we call the FINISH position). The finish position is long past where the CB is contacted. Sure, there is loss of energy, at contact, simply because of the weight of the obstacle (the 6 oz. OB) in the way of the stroke. However, with a 3-1 weight ratio of the stick to the ball (and the proper timing of the forward stroke), the velocity of cuestick overcomes the energy lost, and continues to the end of a person's natural range of motion. All of this is accomplished WITHOUT the necessity of moving the shoulder (i.e.: dropping the elbow) at all! Perhaps if you have an opportunity to attend one of our pool schools, you will more clearly understand the 'hows' and 'whys' about how this works. :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

skor said:
Since the pendulum stroke will only allow you acceleration to a certain point, you must drop the elbow to allow the full acceleration (or slip the grip backwards).
Click to expand...
 
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