Pergatory

[Nostroke]

At least in New York City, I think much of the problem stems from the actual language used to define skill level.

In New York, players are typically rated as Pro, Open, A, B, C and D. This creates a very interesting scenario since Open players are not considered professionals and yet they fall outside the "letter spectrum". The value of A, the way it's typically defined in society is huge here. When is "A" not the best? Only in pool is "A" trumped by "O" but is it?

I think, for the most part, people consider "A" to be top amateur rank when in fact, the Open class is. Because the Open class is seperated from the letter spectrum, they default to professional events. They're amateurs who are not allowed to compete with lower-ranked amateurs.

If the amateur spectrum were to encompass the Open class, or in other words, Old Open=A, Old A=B, etc., I think most amateur players and organizations would be more inclusive. Until that day passes, I think there will forever be pool purgatory, especially in New York City.

I could be wrong, but i think Open and Pro are "new" designations around NYC. Im fairly sure it used to be A, B, and C only. When the Tri State tour began Ginky, Frankie and the like were A Players. Johnny B, Gypsy, Joey Kong etc were 'B' players. Something happened like Ginky winning too many maybe and the Open class was created. In the shake-up most C's became B's, B's became A's etc. Then after some more complaints the 'pro' class was added. Sounds crazy-im unconvincing myself as i type.

 

[Celtic]

A similar thing happened when they opened the grand masters to anyone. The pro's get to play in their tournaments and the Grand Masters. Kirkwood and other men of his speed, have to fade the pro's now. Of course the women are in the same boat.

That tourney is played on the 7 foot diamonds though. In all reality Kirkwood, Atwell, Tourangeneau, and other players of that level have nearly equal chances in each match against the top pro's on those tables in bar box 8-ball.

For all the pro's that played in the grand masters this year the tourney was snapped off not by SVB or Souquet or Archer but instead a guy named Simon Pickering.

The grand masters in Vegas given the length of the races and equipment is the perfect place for players just below the pro level to get experience against those well known pros and they are not giving up much match per match against any of them.

 

[JoeyA]

I've spent my whole pool playing life, living in Purgatory. Not because I wanted to, it was because, I had to.

There just wasn't enough incentive, (money) out there to justify quitting a good job and beating my brains out trying to beat the best players in the world. I wish there was.

The game needs to offer, more than just a hand-full of players, the opportunity to make a good living, and it doesn't. That's why there are so many so-called shortstops. This is also the reason so many pro players drop out of the competitive world once there chances of winning an event are greatly diminished. The game is no longer affordable.

I'm playing in the U. S. Open for the first time in my life at the age of fifty-nine. It was foolish of me to wait this long to play, I know that. I should have gone to many of them. In my defense, I would have had to taken a week off from work and invested a good amount of money to go. I couldn't afford such a high risk for so little reward. Unless I finished in the top sixteen players. I was probably going to lose money. Plain and simple.

The beauty other games offer and the reason people pursue there dreams is, if they make it, they can make a good living doing something they love. I'm not talking about the Tiger Woods or the Micheal Jordan's of the world. I'm talking about the back-up catchers and the players barely making the cut on the P.G.A. Tour. These are the people that make it possible for the Tiger Woods and Micheal Jordan's to show off there talents, without them there's no game.

All I can say is the game needs a large infusion of players and money. Without the both of them, it will keep a lot of the shortstops on the bench, forever.

Good luck to you old boy.!

I will be pulling for you. (and one of us )
JoeyA

 

[Milo]

Well, I heard they kept postponing this 2K added tourney for them, each day it was moved to "tomorrow." Then I heard there was an entry fee for the tourney. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Hi Melinda,

I can confirm they did not have the 2k added tourney as far as I know.
I dont know if all played with the pros, but I do know Glenn,Stan,and Bobby played in some of the pro events and did not money.

 

[akaTrigger]

Hi Melinda,

I can confirm they did not have the 2k added tourney as far as I know.

wow - so not only was it postponed each day for a few days, but then they never had it? eeeek.

 

[12310bch]

purgatory

All competitive sports have a purgatory. The difference is that it is an organized purgatory. National and other golf tours, minor league baseball, European basketball,:Canadian football etc., etc.:shrug:

 

[greyghost]

i get all of this, but maybe its just me...I'd rather the stiffer competition...can't get any better just picking on the lil guys. But the money is always gonna be an issue untill pool gets a big $ infusion.

 

[Milo]

i get all of this, but maybe its just me...I'd rather the stiffer competition...can't get any better just picking on the lil guys. But the money is always gonna be an issue untill pool gets a big $ infusion.

Some of these guys depend on their pool earnings as a majority of their living. They have to play the 'lil guys' to survive. Its a very tough existence imo. They do have choices though, and some chose a very tough path.
The non-existence of balance in their lives does not promote positive pool playing or quality of life, imo.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Milo:

Good point.

The answer is simple... allow everyone to play (open) and keep the entry fee really reasonable--- JUST like DCC. DCC has the answer.

Can we win? NO. However, nobody is trying to make a living off of pool tournaments (who isn't a top pro)--- it's oddball cash, really. If they are, they're stupid.

Since this is a hobby for 99% of us, keep it that. I remember the one time I played in DCC I won my first match and then drew Evgeny Stalev and then Tony Crosby (in that order).

One could either b1tch about a rough draw (they're idiots if they do since he/she isn't winning no matter what their draw is) or consider it a blessing to play such GIFTED players for $75 or $100 (whatever it is). It's a learning experience.

Anyways, I say keep all national tournaments open --- let everyone play, just keep it reasonable. If someone b1tches, they don't have the mindset of a real player--- and wouldn't win regardless. I mean, who plays in those events to "make a living" or someone who "has to cash" unless you're a touring pro or top road player?



Dave

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I could be wrong, but i think Open and Pro are "new" designations around NYC. Im fairly sure it used to be A, B, and C only. When the Tri State tour began Ginky, Frankie and the like were A Players. Johnny B, Gypsy, Joey Kong etc were 'B' players. Something happened like Ginky winning too many maybe and the Open class was created. In the shake-up most C's became B's, B's became A's etc. Then after some more complaints the 'pro' class was added. Sounds crazy-im unconvincing myself as i type.

Honestly, I can't remember Frankie or Ginky EVER playing in anything less than an Open event but you have a few years on me so you would probably know better than I would. The Tri-State created the Open class when Jon Smith and Steve Lipsky were tearing up the A division, if my memory serves correct. My point is, I think the Open class is too limited. It's unfortunate that A players often play nothing better than them and Opens play nothing worse, that's all I'm saying. The Predator Tour has helped break that barrier but the definitions of Pro/Open/Amateur still looms large in New York.

 

[uwate]

Tough place for the 2nd tier pros. Little incentive for them to try to take their game to a higher level. What this sport needs is the pool equivalent to the Nike Tour in golf.

 

[miplayerstour]

the grey area

I recently had an event in Lansing Michigan where I had the open players in a seperate division from the A and BB players. I honestly had a couple of great players ask me why I put them in the open. My response was you would beat the heck out of most of the A players in a long race at least 80% of the time and in the open anyone can win! The response they had was nuts! They said exactly, thats why we should be in hte A division because we can win its almost guaranteed!

There are players that are out there in no mans land inbetween local greatness and pro player however, this doesnt mean they shouldnt be challenged like most of the poolplayers out there! There are levels of players at every sport or game. The guys that arent quite pro level shouldnt be allowed to run over the true amateurs because they arent quite pro yet especially if its by choice. They actually should be thrown in the mix with the pros so they step up their game IMO.

Someone mentioned Jason Kirkwood being an amateur..............he is not by any means an amateur IMO and Jason will tell you this himself especially on a bar table! He is allowed to play in many amateur events but have no doubt that if he chose to apply himself and his talent, alot of pros wouldnt like it! Yes he is that good when he actually trains himself and tries! That doesnt mean he would always win or cash in pro events but it certainly means its his choice not to go pro and the amateurs shouldnt be slaughtered because he chooses not to move forward! Sorry Jason I love ya but its true.

When I originally started the MPT it was for players at the in between level because they had no events. I thoughts it would bring out players from everywhere in Michigan and other closeby states. It didnt! We had some great matchups but, the folks that had no events to play in didnt show up in droves so, dont feel bad because there are folks making the effort to give them events to earn money but if they dont support them and help themselves, no one else can help them!

We should always strive for more than we are................once you've become the overwhelming favorite, you have to adjust your goals which means playing with the big boys and making a challenge out of it.

 

[Milo]

I recently had an event in Lansing Michigan where I had the open players in a seperate division from the A and BB players. I honestly had a couple of great players ask me why I put them in the open. My response was you would beat the heck out of most of the A players in a long race at least 80% of the time and in the open anyone can win! The response they had was nuts! They said exactly, thats why we should be in hte A division because we can win its almost guaranteed!

There are players that are out there in no mans land inbetween local greatness and pro player however, this doesnt mean they shouldnt be challenged like most of the poolplayers out there! There are levels of players at every sport or game. The guys that arent quite pro level shouldnt be allowed to run over the true amateurs because they arent quite pro yet especially if its by choice. They actually should be thrown in the mix with the pros so they step up their game IMO.

Someone mentioned Jason Kirkwood being an amateur..............he is not by any means an amateur IMO and Jason will tell you this himself especially on a bar table! He is allowed to play in many amateur events but have no doubt that if he chose to apply himself and his talent, alot of pros wouldnt like it! Yes he is that good when he actually trains himself and tries! That doesnt mean he would always win or cash in pro events but it certainly means its his choice not to go pro and the amateurs shouldnt be slaughtered because he chooses not to move forward! Sorry Jason I love ya but its true.

When I originally started the MPT it was for players at the in between level because they had no events. I thoughts it would bring out players from everywhere in Michigan and other closeby states. It didnt! We had some great matchups but, the folks that had no events to play in didnt show up in droves so, dont feel bad because there are folks making the effort to give them events to earn money but if they dont support them and help themselves, no one else can help them!

We should always strive for more than we are................once you've become the overwhelming favorite, you have to adjust your goals which means playing with the big boys and making a challenge out of it.

Great Post!!! I agree 100%