Perhaps she had a few too many......APA ruling

[Hail Mary Shot]

if this kind of scenario would create a lot of controversy, it's better that they should revise,include and clearly state it in the rulebook. otherwise this would create a lot of future turmoil and a lot of game misconducts done by the players whether intentional or not.

 

[poolplayer2093]

the more i hear about things like this people more interested in drinking than playing pool the more i think the apa isn't for me. i drink don't get me wrong but all things have a time and place

 

[FLICKit]

if this kind of scenario would create a lot of controversy, it's better that they should revise,include and clearly state it in the rulebook. otherwise this would create a lot of future turmoil and a lot of game misconducts done by the players whether intentional or not.

Actually it is pretty clearly stated in the rule book... Just have to take the time to read it and understand it, and reference it...

Some people try to get nitpicky ad infinitem when it comes to rulings - kinda human nature unfortunately. When nitpickyness goes to that level, no set of rules, whether APA, BCA, World Standardized, ... will ever have sufficient enough detail to include every screwy situation...

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Actually it is pretty clearly stated in the rule book... Just have to take the time to read it and understand it, and reference it...

Some people try to get nitpicky ad infinitem when it comes to rulings - kinda human nature unfortunately. When nitpickyness goes to that level, no set of rules, whether APA, BCA, World Standardized, ... will ever have sufficient enough detail to include every screwy situation...

I hope that we don't have to resort calling on Judge Judy just to settle those screwy situations.

 

[GADawg]

Actually it is pretty clearly stated in the rule book... Just have to take the time to read it and understand it, and reference it...

Some people try to get nitpicky ad infinitem when it comes to rulings - kinda human nature unfortunately. When nitpickyness goes to that level, no set of rules, whether APA, BCA, World Standardized, ... will ever have sufficient enough detail to include every screwy situation...

I've looked at all your posts here and cannot see where it is "pretty clearly stated in the rule book." The only reference I see is one to a rule regarding accidental movement of a ball. Clearly this was not accidental so I can't see why that rule would "clearly" apply. To me accidental movement of a ball is when you touch one making a bridge, using a rest or with your cue while trying to make an otherwise legal strok.

I took a casual look at the APA rules and do not see anything to clearly cover this situation. Maybe I just missed it. In BCA/WPA rules I would think this would fall under intentionally illegally causing a ball to move (Rule 2.19) and be loss of game. APA rules are not so clear.

 

[MrLucky]

Ga dawg

I've looked at all your posts here and cannot see where it is "pretty clearly stated in the rule book." The only reference I see is one to a rule regarding accidental movement of a ball. Clearly this was not accidental so I can't see why that rule would "clearly" apply. To me accidental movement of a ball is when you touch one making a bridge, using a rest or with your cue while trying to make an otherwise legal strok.

I took a casual look at the APA rules and do not see anything to clearly cover this situation. Maybe I just missed it. In BCA/WPA rules I would think this would fall under intentionally illegally causing a ball to move (Rule 2.19) and be loss of game. APA rules are not so clear.

What is Clear to me is this guy just doesn't want to admit he was mistaken or misunderstood the original post! As far as shooting the eight ball straight in the pocket without the cueball is according to my division rep a loss of game !

I sincerely doubt this poster is even a APA player if he is he must be very new ! The original poster is satisfied and to me that is where the discussion ends ! I d try and listen to my sig advice .

 

[MrLucky]

Pleas do not let one posted incident color your view of the league..

the more i hear about things like this people more interested in drinking than playing pool the more i think the apa isn't for me. i drink don't get me wrong but all things have a time and place

I have played APA for a very long time, of course when you have hundreds of thousands of members and many League Operators you will have all sorts of personalities and some issues but all in all it is a great way to play and meet all sorts of folks that love pool LOL! even an occasional Fool!

 

[GADawg]

What is Clear to me is this guy just doesn't want to admit he was mistaken or misunderstood the original post! As far as shooting the eight ball straight in the pocket without the cueball is according to my division rep a loss of game !

I sincerely doubt this poster is even a APA player if he is he must be very new ! The original poster is satisfied and to me that is where the discussion ends ! I d try and listen to my sig advice .

I believe you are correct and I am older than you and also have lived in Atlanta in the past. Therefore, between the two of us, we cannot possibly be wrong.

 

[MrLucky]

Lol!

I believe you are correct and I am older than you and also have lived in Atlanta in the past. Therefore, between the two of us, we cannot possibly be wrong.

Well LMAO I guess that settles it then!
Peace to ya !

OH! an "hows about them Dawgs!!!!"

 

[Da Poet]

What is Clear to me is this guy just doesn't want to admit he was mistaken or misunderstood the original post! As far as shooting the eight ball straight in the pocket without the cueball is according to my division rep a loss of game !

I sincerely doubt this poster is even a APA player if he is he must be very new ! The original poster is satisfied and to me that is where the discussion ends ! I d try and listen to my sig advice .

Everyone who has disagreed with you has been extremely polite. These insults simply because someone disagrees with you are completely undeserved.

I still disagree with you. The only rule that you have referred to has been the "Balls on the floor" rule where if the eight ball touches the floor, it is loss of game. This rule has nothing to do with the current situation.

The following rule covers the situation relatively clearly.

g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.

If you can find another rule that applies then fine. Show it to us. In the meantime, the insults really need to go.

 

[Snapshot9]

Well

a 'zero' ball is pretty close to an '8' ball, and we all know that girls are never really too good at math, but they usually are about colors though!!! ...

Did she get 'overs'? .... She is a girl, remember?

 

[FLICKit]

Everyone who has disagreed with you(MrLucky) has been extremely polite. These insults simply because someone disagrees with you are completely undeserved.

I still disagree with you. The only rule that you have referred to has been the "Balls on the floor" rule where if the eight ball touches the floor, it is loss of game. This rule has nothing to do with the current situation.

The following rule covers the situation relatively clearly.

g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.

If you can find another rule that applies then fine. Show it to us. In the meantime, the insults really need to go.

I agree. Very well stated DaPoet. So far we've made an extra effort to be considerate. He has made a couple of references to the book, but the references have not shown a direct / valid connection. Feel free to elaborate on how your statements apply to the references that you've made. But subsequent posts have shown them to have no correlation.

And to address your questions, I have played in the APA for many years, and have even been a league rep for at least 3 years. One of the qualities of a good league rep, is to always be able to directly refer to the specific rules for which you are basing your decision. Spouting off rulings without referring to the rulebook is subject to major discrepancies.


The following is a synopsis of this thread, up to this point. Upon review one of the things that I've noticed is that there have been a couple of posters who agree with MrLucky. But, the ones who agree with you have admittedly stated that they have not played in the APA.

While on the other hand, a number of posters have chimed in and agreed with me and DaPoet, and they have all played/are playing in the APA.

If MrLucky wants to continue to disagree, then it's possible that we all may have to agree to disagree, and just move on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#3 - The eight if pocketed as the result of a foul is a loss! if just hit and not pocketed then It would be BIH!.

#15 - Since most leagues do not play all balls foul. Technically this would not be your standard foul call. This was complicated by the fact that the 8-ball was knocked in. But, just like any other non-legitimate movement of balls situation, the balls must be replaced.

#16 - in BCA a scratched 8 ball is not a loss in game but in APA it is!!!

#23 - This is the link for APA rules.


http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf



g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.


It's one thing not to have a rule book handy while your playing, but when people are sitting in front of a computer with all kind of search features, and they feel completely confident posting answers on a rules question without even trying to look up the rule themselves, you've gotta wonder sometimes.

#24 - Yep. That's exactly what I based my interpretation on...

"It is not a foul to move any other ball including the 8 ball"...

#25 - If the 8 is pocketed at any time during the course of the game without a marked legal hit it is a loss of game ! I suggest you carefully reread the rules since you have them you might start on page 30 and then go on! if you do not want to read it all try page 47 #6 even if the 8 is acratched off the table it is LOSS OF GAME!

#26 -Standard 8-Ball Rules

4.20 LOSS OF GAME

But he's referring to some set of Standard 8-Ball Rules, and not the actually APA rules / book...

#29 -
I think you are correct...

I have never played APA so have not specifically read their rules

#31 - To the best of my knowledge, all that's available in the APA Team Manual http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf on pp.48/49 it would seem this is what I think the ruling would be. APA calls cue ball fouls only, NOT object balls. You could literally knock the object balls all over the table, and suffer no recourse.

#32 - I did something similar in an APA match. I had an easy straight in side pocket shot on the 8, and as I walked around the table to shoot it I called the pocket by pointing my cue at the side pocket. As I rounded the corner of the table, I tripped over my own feet and swiped the nearby 8 ball directly in the corner pocket. After much laughter, the 8 ball was replaced and I managed to pocket it for the win.

The only difference in the case mentioned in this thread is the 'unintentional/intentional' nature of the hit on the 8. I'm thinking that was more of an intentional hit, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 8 was (should have been) respotted.

#33 - My read on this is the same as Da Poet's. As long as the CB isn't contacted, ANY OB contacted is put back in its original position.

#34 - We are talking about a APA match when the 8 is made on the break it is a win! unless you scratch the cueball at the same time it is then a loss in APA !

#38 - That would be the case with any shot originating from the cue ball. For example, cue ball hits 8 and knocks it in an unmarked pocket would be loss of game. Or cue hits solid or stripe, which in turn knocks 8 in, would be a loss.

That criteria is not applicable to this situation, since the shot did not originate with the cue ball.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLucky
I suggest you carefully reread the rules since you have them you might start on page 30 and then go on! if you do not want to read it all try page 47 #6 even if the 8 is acratched off the table it is LOSS OF GAME!

Page 30 has nothing applicable to this situation.
Page 47 #6 refers to BALLS ON THE FLOOR (which already is not applicable here). It states "If the 8 ball is knocked on the floor, it is loss of game. Other object balls that get knocked on the floor will be spotted...

All of this would 100% apply, if the shot at hand began with the cue ball and knocked said balls on floor. In this case it clearly didn't originate with contact on the cue ball.

...All balls must be replaced before play would continue.

#41 - The goofy thing about this situation is technically, she didn't foul when she pocketed the eight because the cue ball was never touched, either by her, or by another ball. The eight was simply an unintentially moved object ball. Because it went in the pocket after it was unintentially moved is not relevant.

The same thing applies when someone accidently uses an object ball for the cue ball. If the cue ball was never moved, then the balls get respotted and no foul has occured whether a ball went in the pocket or not.

#43 - once again responds with a ruleset that is not from the APA rules...

#45 - First of all, wouldn't rule "loss of game" because the rule book specifically defines the loss of game conditions on p51 section 10. This does not comply with any of criteria listed.

On page 50 section 9g it states "any balls moved accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it must be replaced before the shot is taken." This is a simple fit and simple fix to the situation originally described.

Some might try to argue about the accidental part. Yet within one context, accidental can be applicable.

If you try to take it to the level of extremely nitpicky, then you definitely won't be able to find any nitpicky interpretation resulting in loss of game.

#48 - Have you ever played APA 8 ball? if you have you should know that ANYTIME the 8 goes in to a pocket that wasn't called or marked it is loss of game ! in this case she may have marked the pocket but it was a illegal hit on the 8 Loss of Game ! Period.

#52 - MrLucky, it's always far more persuasive to cite the rule and let the rule do the talking.

Please quote from the rules the closest thing you can find to support the phrases "ANYTIME the eight goes into a pocket", or "illegal hit on the eight"

Here's the link again:

http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

#54 - this sounds correct as long as you do not intentionally shoot in the 8 ! there have been occasions here where folks were trying to do this to raise their opponents handicap to try and make the team ineligible to match up in the playoffs! sad but true!
the exception also is if you intentionally shoot in a opponents ball it is marked a safety and BIH to them!
A FYI I do not work for the APA I am just a long time player (1983 back from the Bush days ) in the league and a Captain of a team for the last several years! Mr Flika was posting incorrect interpretations ! I did bring this post up with our division rep who agreed with my answer to the young lady shooting in the 8 ball without hitting the cueball

#56 -
Thanks Mr Lucky and Flickit for your responses.

I have always been under the impression that if balls were moved accidentally and did not hit the cueball then they were just put back even if a ball went in.

While I dont agree witht he ruling it s fairly well known.

The remaining post are pretty recent enough to simply look up directly.

 

[rbgarmon]

to me its an easy ruling it cant be a foul because the 8 ball was knocked in illegally therefore the opponent cant shoot at it so its gotta be loss of game

 

[MrLucky]

LOL! first of all...

Everyone who has disagreed with you has been extremely polite. These insults simply because someone disagrees with you are completely undeserved.

I still disagree with you. The only rule that you have referred to has been the "Balls on the floor" rule where if the eight ball touches the floor, it is loss of game. This rule has nothing to do with the current situation.

The following rule covers the situation relatively clearly.
This is regarding touching or moving an object ball in the process of shooting it has no bearing whatsoever on this situation! ;-)
g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.

If you can find another rule that applies then fine. Show it to us. In the meantime, the insults really need to go.

it seems only 2 people seem to not understand that she did not accidently touch / move a ball! she shot the 8 ball in illegally!!!!!! and it is a loss of game in APA ! what part of this is not in accordance with the rules ???????????????? My honest suggestion is if you still do not understand that in APA pool the 8 ball is treated TOTALLY different than other balls ! Please go and speak with your local division rep and they will hopefully explain the rules to you to your satisfaction !
Peace Mr Lucky !

 

[FLICKit]

This is regarding touching or moving an object ball in the process of shooting it has no bearing whatsoever on this situation! ;-)

She was in the process of shooting. When her opponent missed, she got up to take her turn, marked the pocket, and in the process of shooting knocked in the 8 ball. But, during her turn, she never touched the cue ball to initiate the shot. Which as me, Da Poet, Gregg, FrankNCali and others ... have repeated to you.

it seems only 2 people seem to not understand that she did not accidently touch / move a ball! she shot the 8 ball in illegally!!!!!! and it is a loss of game in APA ! what part of this is not in accordance with the rules ????????????????

It's not possible to take a shot, without moving/contacting the cue ball, period. Without touching the cue ball she couldn't take a shot legally or illegally!

"and it is a loss of game in APA !", why? Just cuz you keep saying it. Repeating it doesn't make it true. On the other hand, if you have a reference to a section of the rule book which backs up your claim, then do it. But you have failed to back it up, although it has been repeatedly suggested that you do so.

In addition page 51 section 10 defines the conditions required for losing a game. None of the conditions listed correlate to what you're trying to claim.

My honest suggestion is if you still do not understand that in APA pool the 8 ball is treated TOTALLY different than other balls ! Please go and speak with your local division rep and they will hopefully explain the rules to you to your satisfaction !

I've referred to a league rep, which has stated that you and your league rep are WRONG, and have no foundation for your claim! That's why you have no valid reference from the APA rulebook.

Unless you have something new to add with valid supporting documentation, then it's time to just drop it and move on. Repeating yourself isn't going to change anything.

 

[Da Poet]

it seems only 2 people seem to not understand that she did not accidently touch / move a ball! she shot the 8 ball in illegally!!!!!! and it is a loss of game in APA ! what part of this is not in accordance with the rules ???????????????? My honest suggestion is if you still do not understand that in APA pool the 8 ball is treated TOTALLY different than other balls ! Please go and speak with your local division rep and they will hopefully explain the rules to you to your satisfaction !
Peace Mr Lucky !

This is regarding touching or moving an object ball in the process of shooting it has no bearing whatsoever on this situation! ;-)

The rule does not state "in the process of shooting" it states, "during his turn at the table". There is a significant difference.


g. Causing even the slightest movement or altering the course of the cue
ball, even accidentally, is a foul. Even dropping the chalk on the cue ball
is a foul. It is not a foul, however, to accidentally move any other balls
(including the 8-ball) unless, during his turn at the table, a player moves a
ball and it in turn comes in contact with the cue ball. Any balls moved
accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the
shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot,
it must be replaced before the shot is taken.


The issue of whether or not shooting the eight in without the cue ball was accidental or not, c'mon, it was obviously a mistake, a ridiculous one at that, but still an unintentional mistake. As far as who determines whether it was an accident or not, it would appear that according to the following, if the call is a muddy one, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.


b. Remember, the League Operator and the Board (normally not present at
the time of dispute) cannot effectively rule on a good hit/bad hit situation
or other similar occurrences. Therefore, it is up to the two players and the
two Team Captains involved to make every effort to settle the issue
immediately. Frequently, disputes are settled by replaying the game or the
flip of a coin. It is essential all parties concerned display good
sportsmanship and conduct during the dispute itself. Poor sportsmanship
or abusive behavior may cause the team that wins the dispute to face
more serious consequences when the Board rules on the sportsmanship
issues. Teams consistently involved in disputes may incur penalties
ranging from point deductions to suspension or termination.
In general, disputed flip of a coin type game rulings would favor the
shooting team rather than the sitting team. The APA wishes that games
be decided by shooting rather than by reading. Only a clear violation
would go against the shooting team.

Example: The shooting player makes a shot where the hit (good or bad)
is questionable and both teams feel their ruling is correct. The call
should go to the shooter.


In the example above, the sitting team should have protected itself
by stopping the game prior to the shot and getting a third party,
not on either team, to watch the shot. Now the sitting team is on
an even level with the shooting team and the shooter must be very careful with the shot. It is usually easy to see when your opponent is
going to face a close situation. Your opponent is required to stop if you
want the shot watched.


The point is there is a very good case to be made that the shooter gets the eight ball respotted. If you disagree, then please specify where the rules are that better apply to this situation. They're not my rules, they're not your rules, so what's the big deal?

 

[SteveFromNY]

:lol:!!!!!!

 

[MrLucky]

OK lets try this...

The rule does not state "in the process of shooting" it states, "during his turn at the table". There is a significant difference.


Let me try and explain this so its understood ! first of all you are looking at / copying and pasting from the APA 8 ball and 9 ball Booklet! it is an abreviated basics for APA players it is posted on the website for download and given in a small 17 page booklet to all players for them to understand the basic most likely to occur issues they will encounter in every day play! Team
Captains and Division
Reps get the Team APA Rules Manual which is far more in depth and is used to resolve 99% of the issues that may and will come up! You obviously have wayyyyyy more time on your hands than I do since you have copied and pasted not only what you think is an ruling to support your argument but also almost every comment I have made wether or not it is pertinent to the question at hand!

I personally do not have the time to transcribe rulings from the team manual on here to show you why the ruling that was made in this young ladies game was made!!!! I did not tell them she lost the match the LO or Division Mgr there made the decision!!!! I am only trying to explain to you that i was the right one !!! I suggested to you that if you are an APA player that you take it up with your division mgr or LO as I did after this post and they can / should be able to explain the rules to your satisfaction!

Now let me remind you my first response to you and flika was that the statement ..."Originally Posted by FLICKit
Whether it be APA or BCA ... there is sort of an oddity which is overlooked. Since most leagues do not play all balls foul. Technically this would not be your standard foul call. This was complicated by the fact that the 8-ball was knocked in. But, just like any other non-legitimate movement of balls situation, the balls must be replaced"... was and is not applicable to any APA match in 8 ball if the 8 is is shot in in a foul situation it does not ever come up and be spotted it is a LOSS OF GAME! PERIOD ! now I am done with this post and trying to explain this simple fact! Please speak to your LO for further clarification Thank You ...

 

[FLICKit]

Yeah I know... This is really getting taken to the point of ridiculous.

Just follow the rules as stated in the book and move on...

 

[MrLucky]

Well here here! LOL!

Yeah I know... This is really getting taken to the point of ridiculous.

Great ! at least we agree on something in this post!