Perseving Ivory handles from crazing ..??

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putt-putt44

AzB Silver Member
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Just wondering what if anything do cuemakers do to perserve the massive Ivory pieces used as handles or other large chunks of Ivory used in cues to eliminate any crazing or cracking down the road as is so commonly seen on old ivory balls ??

Do these Ivory handled cues need special temperature controls ??

Thanks in advance,,,,,,,,,,,Alan........
 
Make sure Ivory is stable before installing it is the only way to prevent future problems. It will shrink and crack if it's not stable.

On big pieces I seal the outer surfaces then drill and bore the center to 3/4". I don't seal the inside. The hole lets the Ivory dry evenly and gives it room to shrink. I measure the inside hole once a month and when it quits shrinking it's stable enough to take the outer sealer off and let it breath.
I use the same process for my Ivory ferrules, joints, and butt caps. The bigger the piece the longer it takes. Ferrules take 4-8 weeks to quit shrinking. But size pieces can take 18 months before they quit shrinking.
Most likely when Ivory cracks it's because it doesn't have room to shrink. Put it on correctly and it will out last the wood it's glued to.
 
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When doing Ivory handle cues I prefer to put a super thick finish on it. And yes these cues need to be handled carefully as extreme temperatures could crack the sleeves.
 
Ivory Handles..........??

Thanks guys,,,,I had my eye on that Ivory handle ''Harvey Martin '' that sold recently and was bidding on it but I was dubious as how the Ivory would hold up and wondered how Ivory handles are made to last without crazing,,,,,

Thanks again, very informative,,,,,,,Alan........
 
Alan, i would ask for alot of close ups of the handle. i think i know which one you are looking at. a great cue for your collection. Jeff
 
I've been thinking about this question all day.

Ivory will show signs of shrinking. Close up pictures of where the Ivory meets the rings will show if things are moving. I small shrinkage line can be fine as long as it's just the glue between the pieces and the surfaces are level. If the surface of the Ivory is lower it's shrinking. At that point how old is the cue and how much did it shrink? The tenon and glue don't shrink and the Ivory squeezes around it putting internal pressure on the Ivory. The pressure can make the Ivory brittle and eventually crack along the grain.
Ivory is a strong and very stable when prepared properly.
 
Quoted from "Ivorybuyer"

I know you mentioned specificly Ivory Handles...

Just a general note from Dave Warther:

Ivory can shrink - depends on the situation , age of the ivory , etc.

If the ivory is old such as what I sell it is highly doubtful you would have any shrinkage in the ferrule or joint. Not even likely in a butt. A handle is going to move more.

Cracking can be from shrinking but is usually from loss of moisture where the ambient air is drier than what the ivory has been in - in the past - if it is unsealed. The ivory I sell is very stable - because of the moisture factor it is best to fashion the part and then re-seal the ivory with clearcoat or , in the case of the joint face - with several burnished in coats of super glue.

Alton -
Warning: Not a CueMaker
 
I've been very happy with every piece of Ivory I've ordered from Warther's. Great supplier.

I have to disagree with the suppliers about shrinkage (wood or Ivory). Most Ivory we buy is older then dirt. The suppliers idea of shrinking is different then a cue builders. A knife handle that shrinks .002" is not noticeable. You will feel that on a pool cue. They can shrink as much as .007". With the tenon and glue there is no room to shrink. That piece of Ivory will be brittle. I don't have a technical description of why it shrinks it just does.

I have my ideas on Ivory and I'm not saying they are the perfect. I've installed a lot of Ivory.

Wikapedia has some great info about moisture and heat expansion. If the material is 100% stable and ready for a cue it doesn't move much if any. The basic rule of thumb is the harder the material the less heat and or moisture affect it. The softer the material the more heat and moisture affect it. Ivory being a hard material the elements hardly affect it.
Metal is affected less then Phenolic. Wood expands and shrinks the most in a cue. If you don't believe me do your research. I've tested my research by sticking my commonly used materials in the freezer at 0 degrees Celsius then heating them to 200 degrees. A SS ring changes .0015" with that temperature difference. From 0 degrees to room temperature it doesn't expand at all. It takes extreme temperature to move the materials.

Back to Ivory.

Top picture. This fossilized Walrus Ivory is thousands of years old. It has been in my environment for 2 years. I cut the .750" center hole and after a few months it measures .748" and I can guarantee it will shrink more.

The butt sleeve in the bottom picture was sitting with the center cut to .750" for one year. The supplier told me it was 100% ready to be installed. After a year the center hole was .747". If I didn't have the center cut out this expensive butt sleeve might of cracked.
The customer is dying to get it, it's 6 month behind schedule because the Ivory wasn't ready yet. If I would of sent this out on schedule it would be bumpy the next time I saw it.
I hate cues with bumps in the clear.
 

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Thanks Scott for all the great info, I haven't done any ivory yet, for the most part, due to not knowing enough about stuff like you have just discussed. Thanks,
Dave
 
Getting confusing but intersting,,,,,,,

Thanks for all the info guys,,,,,,that ''Harvey Martin '' Ivory handle cue was from 1970 and used consistently by Jim McFarlen as he was a 3 cushion pro,,,,the Ivory is still mint, and uncraked after all these years of play,,,,,,,

Deano Andrews suggested to me that the cue at this stage should NEVER hit a ball,,!!,,,,,,,,Strickly a collectable,, and everone seems to be blown away as to why it is still so pristene,,,,,,,????

Deano refused to have the owner send it to him for an appraisal as he feared it was way to fragile to be shipped,,,,,

My fear is that with such a historic cue like that,,, it would be a shame if after all these years, it stars to craze or crack,,,,or then again, if after all these years, would it be considered '''stable'',,,,,??

Thanks again for all the input guys,,,,,,,,,Alan........
 
Ideal room temps.......

Thanks,, I would think the best solution would be to house it in a room where both the temp and humidity can be controled,,,,that would leave me out as I have a one bedroom with a loft where both my 6' ''Olhausen'' as well as my collection stay....I really can't get precise temp and humidity controls as it's such a wide open space with the loft upstairs,,,,,,,I could do a temp/humidity control set up in my bedroom though , but it's nice to have all my pool stuff upstairs on display,,,

Thanks again,,,this is a very informative thread for me...Alan.......
 
Preserving Ivory

I remember reading somewhere that they used to recommend handling the ivory billiard balls to keep them from crazing and cracking when they were not being used for a while . Not an expert, just passing the idea along.
 
putt-putt44 said:
Just wondering what if anything do cuemakers do to perserve the massive Ivory pieces used as handles or other large chunks of Ivory used in cues to eliminate any crazing or cracking down the road as is so commonly seen on old ivory balls ??

Do these Ivory handled cues need special temperature controls ??

Thanks in advance,,,,,,,,,,,Alan........
Click to expand...


use 20-30 year old ivory, green ivory(harvested in the past 10 years might work, but older is better"
 
How about UV?

On like a ferrule does it need to be also UV protected or can it just be out in the elements?
 
putt-putt44 said:
Thanks for all the info guys,,,,,,that ''Harvey Martin '' Ivory handle cue was from 1970 and used consistently by Jim McFarlen as he was a 3 cushion pro,,,,the Ivory is still mint, and uncraked after all these years of play,,,,,,,

[...]
Click to expand...

Harvey Martin went to extraordinary lengths to ensure his segmented Ivory handles would not crack. Unless you've seen inside one you wouldn't know how he did it, but every Martin Ivory handle section I've seen has withstood the test of time.

Among other things, the secret to this success was the source of his Ivory - no longer feasible today - and how he machined the individual segments. To perfectly emulate what he did would be prohibitively expensive in today's market.

TW
 
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