Philippine Open

skogstokig said:
yes it's single elim 128 field. hopefully for the first and only time, because that's a format that's gonna lead to 100 filipino players and 28 international players..
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Yeah I believe there’s a reason for this as they haven’t been prone to actually running true Open tournaments very often. The location they chose to do so is telling. While your response seems to reflect some disdain, as Skor who quoted you stated, there’s hundreds of unknown Philippine players that could throttle the International players you seem to hold in higher regard. I think this is a soft talent search by MR, looking at possible future potential WNT players that could surface in this tourney.
 
Frosty said:
Yeah I believe there’s a reason for this as they haven’t been prone to actually running true Open tournaments very often. The location they chose to do so is telling. While your response seems to reflect some disdain, as Skor who quoted you stated, there’s hundreds of unknown Philippine players that could throttle the International players you seem to hold in higher regard. I think this is a soft talent search by MR, looking at possible future potential WNT players that could surface in this tourney.
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no disdain at all. we all know their strength in depth. all the more reason for intl players to stay clear from a one shot tournament there. with double elim this tendency will be lessened
 
skogstokig said:
no disdain at all. we all know their strength in depth. all the more reason for intl players to stay clear from a one shot tournament there. with double elim this tendency will be lessened
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I am wondering (I really don't know), what other sports have double elimination format?

Single elimination sucks if the races are short. It's not fun to travel a couple of hours, not to mention out of the country for 45min and go back home.
But, if pool will adopt the shorter sets format like in tennis and at some of the WPA events then, there is no need for double elimination (it's built in to the sets format).
The shoot out could be replaced by forcing the deciding set to be won by at least 2 points (games), just like in tennis.
It may prolong the match even longer, tennis and snooker and Chinese pool have long matches, I don't see the problem with it. and playing a 3 hours match in a single elimination format is longer than loosing two races to 9 on a double elimination format...

Due to long matches, maybe events need to have qualifiers and cut down the field to 32 players (top 16 of the tour get a free spot and rest qualify for the other 16 places) so the tournament can start and finish over a weekend with out playing around the clock. (this works for pro snooker)

Most double elimination events are not true double elimination anyway and become a single elimination at the last 64 or 32 which is not fair for those on the winner side as they don't get the second chance as others did. In some events (more on amateur level), loosing and going to the looser side may be a longer but easier and safer way to get to the last stages...
 
skor said:
Most double elimination events are not true double elimination anyway and become a single elimination at the last 64 or 32 which is not fair for those on the winner side as they don't get the second chance as others did.
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Double-elims at preliminary stage, I think, are meant to give players a chance to redeem themselves in case they slip once. Those who made to KO stage without a loss don't need such a chance, hence there is nothing unfair about this.

(What is definitely unfair though, is having a DE tournament decided in the finals by a single set only. This way a player with only one loss can be eliminated without a chance every other participant had. Therefore I really like so-called true double elimination, let it even be an extended shorter set instead of a full one, in case a player from B side wins the first final set.)
 
Vahmurka said:
Double-elims at preliminary stage, I think, are meant to give players a chance to redeem themselves in case they slip once. Those who made to KO stage without a loss don't need such a chance, hence there is nothing unfair about this.

(What is definitely unfair though, is having a DE tournament decided in the finals by a single set only. This way a player with only one loss can be eliminated without a chance every other participant had. Therefore I really like so-called true double elimination, let it even be an extended shorter set instead of a full one, in case a player from B side wins the first final set.)
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why is it unfair at the final but not at the semi final or last 32?
A second chance should be available to all or to non.
 
Vahmurka said:
Double-elims at preliminary stage, I think, are meant to give players a chance to redeem themselves in case they slip once. Those who made to KO stage without a loss don't need such a chance, hence there is nothing unfair about this.

(What is definitely unfair though, is having a DE tournament decided in the finals by a single set only. This way a player with only one loss can be eliminated without a chance every other participant had. Therefore I really like so-called true double elimination, let it even be an extended shorter set instead of a full one, in case a player from B side wins the first final set.)
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So it is a big problem if only one guy gets screwed, but not a problem at all if a bunch of guys get screwed? I'm failing to see the logic there. And if you were just wanting to make an argument for which is worse between the two, even though both are bad, I think there is a stronger argument for it being worse to do it to a bunch of guys instead of just doing it to only one guy.

The only thing that is truly fair though is to to allow everyone to get one loss and still be able to stay in the tournament, or don't allow anyone to be able to have a loss and stay in the tournament. That said, while neither of the formats are completely fair and neither are my preference, there are some side benefits to a double elimination tournament that has a single race final, or to tournaments that start as double elimination and then at some point (last 64 or whenever) switch over to being single elimination until the end, and neither are probably the end of the world as long as long as the players are well aware of the format prior to signing up. But maybe I'm just taking that position since I am so used to both of them and so they have become normalized.
 
skor said:
I am wondering (I really don't know), what other sports have double elimination format?

Single elimination sucks if the races are short. It's not fun to travel a couple of hours, not to mention out of the country for 45min and go back home.
But, if pool will adopt the shorter sets format like in tennis and at some of the WPA events then, there is no need for double elimination (it's built in to the sets format).
The shoot out could be replaced by forcing the deciding set to be won by at least 2 points (games), just like in tennis.
It may prolong the match even longer, tennis and snooker and Chinese pool have long matches, I don't see the problem with it. and playing a 3 hours match in a single elimination format is longer than loosing two races to 9 on a double elimination format...

Due to long matches, maybe events need to have qualifiers and cut down the field to 32 players (top 16 of the tour get a free spot and rest qualify for the other 16 places) so the tournament can start and finish over a weekend with out playing around the clock. (this works for pro snooker)

Most double elimination events are not true double elimination anyway and become a single elimination at the last 64 or 32 which is not fair for those on the winner side as they don't get the second chance as others did. In some events (more on amateur level), loosing and going to the looser side may be a longer but easier and safer way to get to the last stages...
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yes, for long races i would agree. predator is race to 8 or 12, so not always long, but the chinese 8-ball comparison is fair. i think it would be a hard sell for both viewers and broadcasters, unfortunately.

if it's an invitational, expenses paid, like the masters i think it's fine with single elim.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
So it is a big problem if only one guy gets screwed, but not a problem at all if a bunch of guys get screwed?
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In case of "one guy", that guy won many games and is the only one going home after one defeat (if B-side player wins). In case of "a bunch of guys", it just shows they were not good enough today to qualify for the single elim stage. They had their chance and failed.

But I don't quite get all the talk about various formats here. There are many, and there is a reason all of them were once introduced. It is obvious true double elim is the longest to run, so requires many facilities (in our case, tables) and more time. Single elim is the fastest but at the same time most brutal. Round robin is very cool (remember IPT, round robin to the very end, I loved that) but again has benefits and drawbacks. There is a place for them all.
 
Vahmurka said:
In case of "one guy", that guy won many games and is the only one going home after one defeat (if B-side player wins). In case of "a bunch of guys", it just shows they were not good enough today to qualify for the single elim stage. They had their chance and failed.
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In the case of the "one guy" that is going home after one defeat in the finals, it shows that they were not good enough to win that set to win the event. They had their chance and failed. Your same argument still applies just as much for the "one" as it did for the "many". You will probably say "well maybe it was just that they got all the bad rolls that set" so it wouldn't be fair, but again, that same argument can be used for everybody else who got eliminated in the single stage of an event that started out as double elimination.

From a purely logical or moral perspective, it still seems better for only one guy to get screwed than for a bunch of guys to get screwed. We do seem to agree that the fairness issue aside, there are other pros and cons for all of the formats, and each may have its place where it is most ideal.
 
Here's the players list...

1 David Alcaide -- Spain
2 Khalid Alghamdi -- Saudi Arabia
3 Abdullah Alshammari -- Saudi Arabia
4 James Aranas -- Philippines
5 Marvin Asis -- Philippines
6 Michael Baoanan -- Philippines
7 Carlo Biado -- Philippines
8 Robbie Capito -- Hong Kong
9 Johann Chua -- Philippines
10 Lee Vann Corteza -- Philippines
11 Duong Quoc Hoang -- Viet Nam
12 Michael Feliciano -- Philippines
13 Lukas Fracasso-Verner -- United States
14 Fu Che Wei -- Chinese Taipei
15 Emil Gangfløt -- Norway
16 Roland Garcia -- Philippines
17 Pierfrancesco Garzia -- Italy
18 Patric Gonzales -- Philippines
19 Fedor Gorst -- United States
20 Denis Grabe -- Estonia
21 Mario He -- Austria
22 Thorsten Hohmann -- Germany
23 Jeffrey Ignacio -- Philippines
24 Mickey Krause -- Denmark
25 Pijus Labutis -- Lithuania
26 Sergio Lagunas Moreno -- Spain
27 AJ Manas -- Philippines
28 John Morra -- Canada
29 Moritz Neuhausen -- Germany
30 Naoyuki Oi -- Japan
31 Alex Pagulayan -- Canada
32 Anton Raga -- Philippines
33 Bernie Regalario -- Philippines
34 Jefrey Roda -- Philippines
35 Francisco Sánchez Ruiz -- Spain
36 Elliott Sanderson -- United Kingdom
37 Arseni Sevastyanov -- Finland
38 Jayson Shaw -- United Kingdom
39 Ralf Souquet -- Germany
40 Jonás Souto -- Spain
41 Billy Thorpe -- United States
42 Harry Vergara -- Philippines
43 Jeffrey De Luna -- Philippines
44 Max Eberle -- United States
45 Roberto Gomez -- Philippines
46 Drahcir Mauricio -- Philippines
47 Dennis Orcollo -- Philippines
48 John Paul Ladao -- Philippines
49 John Albert Refulle -- Philippines
50 John Vincent Vicedo -- Philippines
51 Reyvan Abad -- Philippines
52 Michael Abaño Sison -- Philippines
53 Joshua Agar -- Philippines
54 Toby Alcantara -- Philippines
55 Nicole Alcayde -- Philippines
56 Fahad Aldhayan -- Saudi Arabia
57 Sulaiman Alfarraj -- Saudi Arabia
58 Karl Christopher Arellano -- Philippines
59 Angelo Ariola -- Philippines
60 Kenneth Arpilleda -- Philippines
61 Horace Aynaga Angor -- Philippines
62 Mohammed Baabad -- Saudi Arabia
63 Ryzen Baculpo -- Philippines
64 Jerico Banares -- Philippines
65 Jun Jun Bansil Tiongco -- Philippines
66 Ric Bejen -- Philippines
67 Ceferino Bon Jr -- Philippines
68 Lauro Bongay -- Philippines
69 Francisco Bustamante -- Philippines
70 Yves Cabrito -- Philippines
71 Jerwin Capili Samia -- Philippines
72 Deanmark Castronuevo -- Philippines
73 Jaycee Cordova Garcia -- Philippines
74 Edmar Cristobal Balboa -- Philippines
75 Victor De Asis -- Philippines
76 Emmanuel Delgado -- Philippines
77 Prince Delos Santos -- Philippines
78 Tristan Deocareza -- Philippines
79 Prince Dizon -- Philippines
80 Jasper Joseph E Abrenica -- Philippines
81 Christoff Eiron Espino -- Philippines
82 Alexis Ferrer -- Philippines
83 Glenn Donn Galerio Ginez -- Philippines
84 Saldy Galliguez -- Philippines
85 Paolo Gallito -- Philippines
86 Billy Jay Garcia -- Philippines
87 Kenneth Garcia -- Philippines
88 Rodrigo Geronimo -- Philippines
89 Kian Hidalgo -- Philippines
90 Tristan James Tenio -- Philippines
91 Mark Jerick Leyva -- Philippines
92 Francis Adrian Jimenez -- Philippines
93 Kelson Juan -- United States
94 Saud Kareem Alshammari -- Saudi Arabia
95 Ryan Kersten -- United States
96 Chris Paul L Cabuenas -- Philippines
97 Jordan Legaspi -- Philippines
98 Amiel Leonor -- Philippines
99 Venus Lim -- Singapore
100 Jandale Lozano -- Philippines
101 Sealtiel Raphael M Molvizar -- Philippines
102 Dennis M Po -- Philippines
103 Jayson Allen Mark Malonzo -- Philippines
104 Marlon Manalo -- Philippines
105 Baseth Mocaibat -- Philippines
106 Ronel Nalaunan -- Philippines
107 Eric Navarrete -- Philippines
108 Kenney Nguyen -- United States
109 Hassan Obeed Alqahtani -- Saudi Arabia
110 Ronny Oldervik -- Norway
111 Paul John Ortega -- Philippines
112 Kohei Oyama -- Japan
113 Jonh Patrick P Agir -- Philippines
114 Ryan John P Badal -- Philippines
115 Allan Panganiban -- Philippines
116 Tom Peralta -- Philippines
117 Jordan Pineda -- Philippines
118 Efren Reyes -- Philippines
119 Mark Ace S Angon -- Philippines
120 Jhamir Amini S Castro -- Philippines
121 Bryan Saguiped -- Philippines
122 Joshua Santino Arevalo -- Philippines
123 Ramir Sarmiento -- Philippines
124 Jaybee Sucal -- Philippines
125 Sun Yi Hsuan -- Chinese Taipei
126 Kunihiko Takahashi -- Japan
127 Tsai Pei-Chun -- Chinese Taipei
128 Matchroom Wildcard 1 -- Unknown
 
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