Phillipino dominance?

[bandido]

No, I understood exactly what you're saying, and I think you're expressing a silly sentiment. Sorry.

Efren kicks when it makes sense to kick, jumps when it makes sense to jump. The only time he'll choose to kick when he knows he should jump---to please a crowd---is at an exhibition, or if he's playing for free.

-Roger

I understand your logical approach Roger. But Efren does do some illogical, high-risk shots to really bring the crowd to crazily cheer for him. This is the chess player in Efren showing and he's trying to put the fear on an otherwise fearless opponent. Efren's legal sharkng to break an opponent's focus.

 

[X Breaker]

I have seen Efren jump a ball, I think it was on TV, too. It was in a tournament in Taiwan.

Going back to the notion that Taiwanese are better jumper but weaker kicker, I want to share my personal experience from speaking to Pei Wei Chang.

Chang gave us a lot of feedback during the development of the X Breaker, and we were sharing a room in Vegas during the BCA. So, I had a lot of opportunity to ask him questions about cues, his games, and basically everything else.

We also had a table at the booth which he spent a lot of time hanging out at. That gave me the chance to set shots up and actually watch him shoot them. I am not sure about other players from Taiwan, but Pei Wei Chang is definitely not one who lacks kicking ability. I am not saying he is as good as Efren, but he knows his cushion angles. He is also not someone who pulls out a jump cue whenever he is hooked. He actually does not really like to jump balls. He feels a lot more certain with his kicking.

Po Cheng Kuo also told me he would not jump a ball unless it is a "meaningful" attempt, meaning that he either can get shape and run out from there, or get a great safety. In other words, he will not go for a jump just because he is hooked.

These guys know their cushion angles. They play a game in Taiwan whereas they have to know their cushion very well. I do not know how good their cushion knowledgable is compared to Reyes, but they certainly know what they are doing.

I have seen Wu and Yang jump a lot of balls. They are very offensive. When they have that kind of accurancy with thier jump shots, they can run out more racks even when they are hooked. It only makes sense that they will go for a jump, since they know they can mostly make the ball, and run the table from there on.

I know Reyes is super amazing with his kicks. I watched him play one pocket and he is just plain unbelivable. So, I am not saying Taiwanese are as good as Reyes with their kicks. Just that from my own observation, not all Taiwanese pro players opt for jump shots over kicks.

Richard

 

[Roadie]

Taiwan's depth of talent is soooo far beyond that of Germany's. It's not even close.

-Roger (edited to add, "imo...")

This statement is out of line. Germany has a very large depth of talent, perhaps even a higher average level than Taiwan or the Phillipines on a per capita basis.

Money to play is the issue in Europe as it is everywhere. Thorsten Hohmann, the same guy who beat Manalo for 350,000, was going to quit pool before he won the world championships.

The Germans/Europeans have plenty of players who are quite capable of playing on the world stage. They just don't get out of Europe much.

The argument will never be settled until there is a proper world tour that runs through all continents. We can compare records and argue about conditions all we want to but until the players all have the chance to compete with each other under various conditions throughout the world on a regular basis there will not be a solid way to compare them.

I agree that Filipinos and the Taiwanese are scary good. Still though, I have also seen Germans and Dutch and Swedes who play lights out. Everyone is getting better.

America does not and did not ever have a lock on the games of pocket billiards. Pool and Billiards have been played in various forms for hundreds of years and there are unheralded champions in every nation.

The best kickers in pool are not the Filipinos, the best kickers are the three cushion champions who deign to play pool sometimes. Go to Turkey and you'll find plenty of natural talent playing the Turkish forms of pocket billiards. Go to the game rooms in Germany and you'll find guys playing a version of last pocket 8-ball who can bank anything from anywhere and do it over and over and over again. These guys might be able to snap off the banks at Derby City once they learn the moves. The point being that depth of talent is not easy to measure nor always readily apparent when it comes to cue games.

One reason the Filipinos seem to have a large number of championship caliber players is that they are densely populated there and having a large pool of competitors in a small space will cause more of them to become championship caliber.

What would pool in America be like IF you had a location where there were 10 champions around all the time to mix it up with AND most of the players had ample time to play? That is NOT the case in the USA. Players who want to get better here have to travel much longer distances to keep getting better competition. And the player's reward for getting better? They are banned from most tournaments and tours. They have to hustle, which diminishes their skill.

Still, America produces plenty of world class players who excel on tough equipment as well. As does Germany, Sweden, Great Britain, Taiwan, and the Phillipines. The Phillipines do dominate in the respect category for their abilities and for their heart. Which country truly dominates in the performance category will only be settled when there is a stage that allows the best players from all countries to compete regularly.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

No, I understood exactly what you're saying, and I think you're expressing a silly sentiment. Sorry.

Efren kicks when it makes sense to kick, jumps when it makes sense to jump. The only time he'll choose to kick when he knows he should jump---to please a crowd---is at an exhibition, or if he's playing for free.

-Roger

Sorry Roger, If you think that I am stating a silly sentiment, then you are absolutely wrong. And when you also said that Effie only makes outrageous jumps and kicks during an exhibition or when he's playing for free, is another wrong observation. you may seem to think that it is a carefree attitude which he exercises. if that is the case, then I'm beginning to doubt your know-how about the person.
But I guess I have to give you a benefit of a doubt since you don't seem to know much about Effie's game or maybe haven't watched his matches that show that he doesn't do those sort of shots just to clown around.
There are situations in pool events (whether major or ordinary) where he is down 3-4 games yet he executes these aggressive kicks.
most knowledgeable individuals here in the forum can attest to that, except maybe for you of course, no offense

 

[Roadie]

From what I know of Efren and Bustamante they play for the dough and not for the show. Both of these players take the shot that makes the most sense for them to play, be it a jump shot or a kick shot. They don't pander to the crowd when playing tournaments or gambling. I don't know about the other Filipinos but I know these two personally and this is my opinon of their game.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

So I guess this whole discussion boils down to the fact about winning when it counts, and the Filipinos are ahead when it comes to it. We can always say that this player or that player is better than everybody, but unless they prove themselves in a competition with a bigger and more diverse pool of talents, we can't really say if they are one of the best or not. If Europe have a deeper talent pool, aside from the 2 Germans, they sure are not showing it on the world stage. Considering European nations are fairly rich countries, they probably can pay their way to tournaments abroad a lot easier than the Filipinos.

It boggles my mind that Filipinos and Taiwanese players from small countries have to be compared to almost a whole continent just to find their equivalent when it comes to a group of talents.

 

[jeffwinters]

This statement is out of line. Germany has a very large depth of talent, perhaps even a higher average level than Taiwan or the Phillipines on a per capita basis.

I beg to disagree sir...

Money to play is the issue in Europe as it is everywhere. Thorsten Hohmann, the same guy who beat Manalo for 350,000, was going to quit pool before he won the world championships.

The Germans/Europeans have plenty of players who are quite capable of playing on the world stage. They just don't get out of Europe much.

That is the problem of the Europeans not the Asians and the rest of the world, why are they not participating outside their comfort zone/territory? Afraid to be beaten/lose? Most Filipino Pool Player are not rich, can't afford to buy plane tickets, but they find a way to join this tournament.

The argument will never be settled until there is a proper world tour that runs through all continents. We can compare records and argue about conditions all we want to but until the players all have the chance to compete with each other under various conditions throughout the world on a regular basis there will not be a solid way to compare them.

Previously, WPC is based there in Europe, but World Pool League is always there and some other major tournaments, Asians and some Americans go there to participate, how come some of them do not participate in tournaments held in Asia and America?

I agree that Filipinos and the Taiwanese are scary good. Still though, I have also seen Germans and Dutch and Swedes who play lights out. Everyone is getting better.

America does not and did not ever have a lock on the games of pocket billiards. Pool and Billiards have been played in various forms for hundreds of years and there are unheralded champions in every nation.

I agree with this, the country's champion, but they cannot claim they are the champion of the world...

The best kickers in pool are not the Filipinos, the best kickers are the three cushion champions who deign to play pool sometimes. Go to Turkey and you'll find plenty of natural talent playing the Turkish forms of pocket billiards. Go to the game rooms in Germany and you'll find guys playing a version of last pocket 8-ball who can bank anything from anywhere and do it over and over and over again. These guys might be able to snap off the banks at Derby City once they learn the moves. The point being that depth of talent is not easy to measure nor always readily apparent when it comes to cue games.

they cannot claim to be the best unless they show it and use it to beat the existing champions, the Filipinos. Filipinos have proven this by beating the rest of the world outside the Philippines... Tell those guys to participate in the next DCC to settle it once and for all.

One reason the Filipinos seem to have a large number of championship caliber players is that they are densely populated there and having a large pool of competitors in a small space will cause more of them to become championship caliber.

have you been in the Philippines? try not to talk like you know Filipinos and Philippines. I am a Filipino and it's not because of the population... Efren started it, together with Parica, Bustamante, Luat and Andam. They tour provinces and cities here finding good opponents to match up and gamble. Young people grew up watching them, idolizing their mastery and skills, they want to become like them, to be the best, it's an easy game, with it is the opportunity to rise from poverty, to earn money....

What would pool in America be like IF you had a location where there were 10 champions around all the time to mix it up with AND most of the players had ample time to play? That is NOT the case in the USA. Players who want to get better here have to travel much longer distances to keep getting better competition. And the player's reward for getting better? They are banned from most tournaments and tours. They have to hustle, which diminishes their skill.

It's not an excuse, you achieve things because you want to.

Still, America produces plenty of world class players who excel on tough equipment as well. As does Germany, Sweden, Great Britain, Taiwan, and the Phillipines. The Phillipines do dominate in the respect category for their abilities and for their heart. Which country truly dominates in the performance category will only be settled when there is a stage that allows the best players from all countries to compete regularly.

That is why there are tournaments held around the world, it's not the problem of the participants if some nation did not send or do not have representatives.

I'm very sorry if i would sound harsh, but this post is very disrespectful not only to the Filipinos but also to other Pool players who participate in the tournament to prove they are the best.

If you really want to know who dominates pool, encourage them to join tournaments. The rest of the world, especially the Filipinos, will be waiting for them.

by the way here's a link of the tournament sanction by the World Pool-Billiards Association.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=cal2005

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

This statement is out of line. Germany has a very large depth of talent, perhaps even a higher average level than Taiwan or the Phillipines on a per capita basis.

Money to play is the issue in Europe as it is everywhere. Thorsten Hohmann, the same guy who beat Manalo for 350,000, was going to quit pool before he won the world championships.

The Germans/Europeans have plenty of players who are quite capable of playing on the world stage. They just don't get out of Europe much.

The argument will never be settled until there is a proper world tour that runs through all continents. We can compare records and argue about conditions all we want to but until the players all have the chance to compete with each other under various conditions throughout the world on a regular basis there will not be a solid way to compare them.

I agree that Filipinos and the Taiwanese are scary good. Still though, I have also seen Germans and Dutch and Swedes who play lights out. Everyone is getting better.

America does not and did not ever have a lock on the games of pocket billiards. Pool and Billiards have been played in various forms for hundreds of years and there are unheralded champions in every nation.

The best kickers in pool are not the Filipinos, the best kickers are the three cushion champions who deign to play pool sometimes. Go to Turkey and you'll find plenty of natural talent playing the Turkish forms of pocket billiards. Go to the game rooms in Germany and you'll find guys playing a version of last pocket 8-ball who can bank anything from anywhere and do it over and over and over again. These guys might be able to snap off the banks at Derby City once they learn the moves. The point being that depth of talent is not easy to measure nor always readily apparent when it comes to cue games.

One reason the Filipinos seem to have a large number of championship caliber players is that they are densely populated there and having a large pool of competitors in a small space will cause more of them to become championship caliber.

What would pool in America be like IF you had a location where there were 10 champions around all the time to mix it up with AND most of the players had ample time to play? That is NOT the case in the USA. Players who want to get better here have to travel much longer distances to keep getting better competition. And the player's reward for getting better? They are banned from most tournaments and tours. They have to hustle, which diminishes their skill.

Still, America produces plenty of world class players who excel on tough equipment as well. As does Germany, Sweden, Great Britain, Taiwan, and the Phillipines. The Phillipines do dominate in the respect category for their abilities and for their heart. Which country truly dominates in the performance category will only be settled when there is a stage that allows the best players from all countries to compete regularly.

I admire your unbiased perspective Roadie. but I also want to add up certain things. Population is quite a factor in competition but we must also consider the predominant interest in certain sports. The Philippines for example is not entirely a pool country. the people there are most likely a bunch of basketball crazed enthusiasts. though they might not be dominating in it when it comes to international competition. India has a very large population but their interests is in cricket, Russia and parts of europe mainly chess and so forth and so on. that means population is not a basis for one's dominance in a particular sport unless they don't have any real interest in the sport. We should never just rely on population as a basis for dominating a sport coz Germany also have a big population.
I agree that Germans, Dutches and Swedes are catching up but not yet at the same level as that of matching against the taiwanese and the filipinos.
though I completely disagree to what you are saying that hustling diminishes a player's skill. Remember, Most of these professionals are also hustlers, yet their game doesn't diminish.

Actually it is a good idea to what you are saying that there should be a world staging for such an event to see who is dominant for a certain year. a fair number of representatives for each country competing for the coveted title to determine supremacy over the others. a 12-man representative for each team sounds fair, don't you think?

my suggestion for such an event is a singles match, single elimination format. the team with the most wins in a head to head matchup advances to the next round. if there is a 6 wins-6 loss tie, the team with the most games won will advance.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

From what I know of Efren and Bustamante they play for the dough and not for the show. Both of these players take the shot that makes the most sense for them to play, be it a jump shot or a kick shot. They don't pander to the crowd when playing tournaments or gambling. I don't know about the other Filipinos but I know these two personally and this is my opinon of their game.

Well Said ROADIE ! Tap Tap Tap !

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Actually it is a good idea to what you are saying that there should be a world staging for such an event to see who is dominant for a certain year. a fair number of representatives for each country competing for the coveted title to determine supremacy over the others. a 12-man representative for each team sounds fair, don't you think?

my suggestion for such an event is a singles match, single elimination format. the team with the most wins in a head to head matchup advances to the next round. if there is a 6 wins-6 loss tie, the team with the most games won will advance.

Also add that player play as they appear on the roster carried over to the next round. This way each country has to field the best of their best.

 

[buddha162]

I understand your logical approach Roger. But Efren does do some illogical, high-risk shots to really bring the crowd to crazily cheer for him. This is the chess player in Efren showing and he's trying to put the fear on an otherwise fearless opponent. Efren's legal sharkng to break an opponent's focus.

Well, at least your theory indicates some strategy at work, ie getting the crowd on his side and unnerving his opponent. I happen to think he just prefers to kick more than jump...and IMO Occam's Razor cuts to my side on this one, but of course that's open to interpretation.

-Roger

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Once you become a player that puts more weight on cue ball control and position, you will start to appreciate the notion of kicking/banking before jumping.

 

[buddha162]

This statement is out of line. Germany has a very large depth of talent, perhaps even a higher average level than Taiwan or the Phillipines on a per capita basis

I don't really know what to say to this (other than LOL), except that you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

I guess I can elaborate, but I won't. Rational explanations are usually a waste of time, and in this case I am dealing with a serious departure from reality...I hope you understand it's nothing personal.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

Still, America produces plenty of world class players who excel on tough equipment as well. As does Germany, Sweden, Great Britain, Taiwan, and the Phillipines.

Are you saying that these countries all have similar depths of talent?

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

Sorry Roger, If you think that I am stating a silly sentiment, then you are absolutely wrong.

That's funny because Roadie expressed my exact sentiment and you responded to his post with a Tap-Tappity-Tap.

I am a huge Efren fan, you are being ridiculous to suggest that I am not qualified to comment on his game. That's not surprising because your assertion that he sacrifices strategic decisions for the sake of wowing the crowd (a show of "character" as you put it, if that makes any sense whatsoever) is equally ridiculous.

I am used to absurdity on this forum, but this thread ranks high up there for absolutely absurd content.

-Roger

 

[buddha162]

Once you become a player that puts more weight on cue ball control and position, you will start to appreciate the notion of kicking/banking before jumping.

And it never ends...

-Roger (where does this crap come from? why are we hierarchically ranking kicking vs. jumping?)

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

That's funny because Roadie expressed my exact sentiment and you responded to his post with a Tap-Tappity-Tap.

I am a huge Efren fan, you are being ridiculous to suggest that I am not qualified to comment on his game. That's not surprising because your assertion that he sacrifices strategic decisions for the sake of wowing the crowd (a show of "character" as you put it, if that makes any sense whatsoever) is equally ridiculous.

I am used to absurdity on this forum, but this thread ranks high up there for absolutely absurd content.

-Roger

Roadie Expressing your exact sentiments ? which sentiments of roadie are you talking about? was it the one that you dissected? wasn't he the one you were laughing out loud? are you pointing out roadie so that it would appear that someone was on the same perspective as that of yours? now who's really being ridiculous?
Nothing personal but how much it appears that you talk with much sense before lessened because of your diminutive comprehension! I rest my case now since you've outdone yourself Roger ! Congratulations !!!

 

[buddha162]

Roadie Expressing your exact sentiments ? which sentiments of roadie are you talking about?

This one: "From what I know of Efren and Bustamante they play for the dough and not for the show. Both of these players take the shot that makes the most sense for them to play, be it a jump shot or a kick shot. They don't pander to the crowd when playing tournaments or gambling. I don't know about the other Filipinos but I know these two personally and this is my opinon of their game."

was it the one that you dissected? wasn't he the one you were laughing out loud?

No, the one that had me LOL was his insane pronouncement that Germany and Taiwan (and the PHI too) had the same depth of talent.

Even in light of that, I can recognize that someone spewing this kind of nonsense can be very rational in another context, and his quote above is a perfect illustration.

Check out my post count and join date; I've been in plenty of retarded arguments on azb...but this one is uniquely asinine.

-Roger

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

This one: "From what I know of Efren and Bustamante they play for the dough and not for the show. Both of these players take the shot that makes the most sense for them to play, be it a jump shot or a kick shot. They don't pander to the crowd when playing tournaments or gambling. I don't know about the other Filipinos but I know these two personally and this is my opinon of their game."



No, the one that had me LOL was his insane pronouncement that Germany and Taiwan (and the PHI too) had the same depth of talent.

Even in light of that, I can recognize that someone spewing this kind of nonsense can be very rational in another context, and his quote above is a perfect illustration.

Check out my post count and join date; I've been in plenty of retarded arguments on azb...but this one is uniquely asinine.

-Roger

Whatever ! post counts and join date means nothing if you have a diminutive comprehension ! If I'm going to sarcastically speak of you being on plenty of retarded arguments on azb, that also means that you are a retard. and also a retard for considering this as a retard argument as well. why would you bother to explain now and explain further if this was really a retard argument? just because you can't get the point of what most people say here makes you believe yourself that you are sensible than them is a clear sign of logic defficiency.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Taiwan's depth of talent is soooo far beyond that of Germany's. It's not even close.

-Roger (edited to add, "imo...")

When you hear about some Taiwanese players running 400+ balls in straight pool, let me know.

Yes, I'm sure it's rarely played there. But that's not the point...the Germans play just as good as the Taiwanese. The only difference is the number of players. I didn't say depth of talented players, I said depth of talent.