Phillipino dominance?

Roy Steffensen said:
I have played 4 days with Efren now, for about 12 hours, and lost about 300 $ and won about 70 $ from him. So in total 230 $ for 12 hours to get a chance to play the best player in the world, with f.ex Bustamente watching ringside, with referees, and a big crowd watching too.

I think Allison Fisher charges 70 $ an hour for lessons... What would you choose? :) (Remember that since Efren is playing cheap sets he practice on magic shots he would never done in high-stake matches, so there is a lot to learn just by playing him...)

Haven't got any photos yet, but doesn't matter. The memories in my head will be saved forever :)
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REP for you for having the guts to play him and the smarts.
JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I can't believe Django couldn't do the tango with LeeVan. Even I made him do the Watoosi recently but really was just lucky. Thanks for the update. I love to hear about the action between Pinoy's and all the talk about who is best at gambling at pool is DA HAMMER.
JoeyA
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LeeVan has been playing awesome lately and really doing his very best for the 2nd chance he got after kicking the habit. Pool is doing great here in the Philippines right now specially with more people, with sizeable disposable income, genuinely enjoying and supporting the sport.

I salute Mr. Makabenta for all he and his group has done for the sport through the national association and Raya Sports. And am looking forward to working with him in the new player management association being put together for it.
 
bandido said:
LeeVan has been playing awesome lately and really doing his very best for the 2nd chance he got after kicking the habit. Pool is doing great here in the Philippines right now specially with more people, with sizeable disposable income, genuinely enjoying and supporting the sport.

I salute Mr. Makabenta for all he and his group has done for the sport through the national association and Raya Sports. And am looking forward to working with him in the new player management association being put together for it.
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Just make sure to work with disgruntled people from the org. They might start their own thing then everyone else will start their own thing. Remember what happened to the olympics basketball team.

You should all work together unlike here in America they probably have enough organizations for each of their top players doing their own thing.
 
Been in Angeles City the last few days. Hung out with Ted Lerner, the unsung American who had so much to do with bringing the WPC here. His newest horse is Roland Garcia, one more great young player. We played and talked pool together for a couple of days.

Rolly is off to Korea today for The Korean Pool Championships. Angeles City is an unbelievable place. Where the old Clark Air Force Base was. Much smaller and less crowded and polluted than Manila. Club after club brimming with young lovelies, anxious to meet a stray American. And there are many living here. You can live good on a thousand a month.

I've met many ex-pats including Darryl Nordquist, a good player from Southern Cal who moved here years ago. Every bar has a 9' table, no bar tables here. The standard line I hear from the Americans here, "It's a tough life but someone has to do it". Hee Hee Hee!

Had dinner with Yen Makabenta the night before I left Manila. Great guy who is making big plans for Pool in Asia. Manila IS the center of Pool in Asia. We went to Star Paper, a private room set up for aspiring pro players. The owner "Basty" is a wealthy local who loves and supports pool. Everything is free if you are invited there! About 20 Brunswick Metros and a few Gold Crowns. Hit 'em around with Yen and he can play! Sad, another misspent youth.

From there it was off to Bugsys for the final match up between Dennis and Van Van. Ten Ball this time with the same result, Van wins 23-15. His manager Perry Mariano says Dennis has not been practicing enough, but Van just looked better. Bugsys is just about the coolest one table pool room in the world. Perry's private little spot for matches just like this. Will be hard to leave the pool wonderland that is Manila and points west (Angeles). But I must. Plane to catch on the 14th, and U.S. Bar Table starting on the 28th.
 
crosseyedjoe said:
Just make sure to work with disgruntled people from the org. They might start their own thing then everyone else will start their own thing. Remember what happened to the olympics basketball team.

You should all work together unlike here in America they probably have enough organizations for each of their top players doing their own thing.
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Top-notch advice, thank you.
 
jay helfert said:
Been in Angeles City the last few days. Hung out with Ted Lerner, the unsung American who had so much to do with bringing the WPC here. His newest horse is Roland Garcia, one more great young player. We played and talked pool together for a couple of days.

Rolly is off to Korea today for The Korean Pool Championships. Angeles City is an unbelievable place. Where the old Clark Air Force Base was. Much smaller and less crowded and polluted than Manila. Club after club brimming with young lovelies, anxious to meet a stray American. And there are many living here. You can live good on a thousand a month.

I've met many ex-pats including Darryl Nordquist, a good player from Southern Cal who moved here years ago. Every bar has a 9' table, no bar tables here. The standard line I hear from the Americans here, "It's a tough life but someone has to do it". Hee Hee Hee!

Had dinner with Yen Makabenta the night before I left Manila. Great guy who is making big plans for Pool in Asia. Manila IS the center of Pool in Asia. We went to Star Paper, a private room set up for aspiring pro players. The owner "Basty" is a wealthy local who loves and supports pool. Everything is free if you are invited there! About 20 Brunswick Metros and a few Gold Crowns. Hit 'em around with Yen and he can play! Sad, another misspent youth.

From there it was off to Bugsys for the final match up between Dennis and Van Van. Ten Ball this time with the same result, Van wins 23-15. His manager Perry Mariano says Dennis has not been practicing enough, but Van just looked better. Bugsys is just about the coolest one table pool room in the world. Perry's private little spot for matches just like this. Will be hard to leave the pool wonderland that is Manila and points west (Angeles). But I must. Plane to catch on the 14th, and U.S. Bar Table starting on the 28th.
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Thank you for the updates Jay!
fing02.gif
 
bandido said:
LeeVan has been playing awesome lately and really doing his very best for the 2nd chance he got after kicking the habit. Pool is doing great here in the Philippines right now specially with more people, with sizeable disposable income, genuinely enjoying and supporting the sport.

I salute Mr. Makabenta for all he and his group has done for the sport through the national association and Raya Sports. And am looking forward to working with him in the new player management association being put together for it.
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Good to see that Philippine pool is moving towards the right
direction Bandido! And they are definitely are in good hands!
fing22.gif
 
Corteza rips Django, Tops Pool Derby



leevanncorteza.jpg
fancisco_bustamante.jpg





MANILA, Philippines -- Lee Van Corteza clustered nine racks, including
a golden break in the fifth frame, to trounce Francisco “Django” Bustamante,
13-4, and rule the 10-ball Grand Derby held at the Efren Magic Billiard Center
in Pasong Tamo Extension, Makati City, late Thursday.

Down, 0-2, the 27-year-old Corteza found the touch that has given him four
Southeast Asian Games gold medals and surged ahead, 9-2, en route to the P
140,000 champion’s purse. Bustamante settled for P40,000.

“My golden break in the fifth frame was crucial as it gave me the
momentum,” said Corteza, who is scheduled to represent the country in the
2007 WPA World 8-ball in Fujairah, United Arab Emirates, on March 1-8, in
Filipino.

“I’m also lucky as I’m on the brink of losing to Roberto (Gomez) in the
semifinals before he scratched,” added Corteza, who finished runner-up in
last December’s derby game behind 2006 World Pool League titlist Dennis
Orcollo.

Corteza actually missed the No. 5 ball in the 6th rack, but two-time RP Open
winner Bustamante opted for a safety shot. Corteza, however, managed to
pocket No. 5 via a difficult shot and proceeded to clean up the table.

In the 12th rack, Corteza suffered his third empty break, allowing Bustamante
to cut the lead at 3-9.

Bustamante missed an easy No. 2 ball shot in the 13th rack and Corteza
cleaned up the table for a 10-3 count.

In the crossover semis, Corteza edged 2007 The Battle of Scandinavia 9-ball
winner Roberto Gomez, 11-9, while Bustamante trounced bosom buddy Hall of
Famer Efren “Bata” Reyes, 11-2.

Other renowned Filipino pool sharks who competed were 2006 Doha Asian
Games silver medalist Jeffrey de Luna, 2006 Asian 9-ball Tour Taiwan leg
winner Rodolfo Luat and 1991 Manila Southeast Asian Games gold medalist
Leonardo Andam. The one-day event was organized by tournament director
Rolly Vicente, event manager Ish Caparras and Shirley Mananap of Puyat
Sports.
 
this is a little off

Roadie said:
I meant density and accessibility. In America there are pockets where world beaters congregate but they aren't many. You aren't going to find much in the way of consistent cheap action happening with world beaters squaring off against weaker players hoping to get better. Backers don't back it and players in the USA can't afford it. Compare that to the Phillipines where tough action is all around and can be had for relatively little stakes. Winning a $100 set means a lot more there than it does here.

So if I am a Filipino player on my way up I can get all the tough games I want without having to travel very far. When I run out of competition I don't have to travel very far to get more. In the USA a good player runs out of competition very quickly and has to travel farther and farther and spend more and more to hone their game. That's what I really meant. It's a bit tougher of a nut to become a champion in the USA than it is in the Phillipines in my opinon. In the Phillipines you have tough competition all the time and a bunch of people who want your spot. I have lways said that champions breed champions.

Now, as to the idea that hustling diminishes skill. I said that because when a player is forced to constantly adjust his speed in order to trap the other player he cannot feel the same pressure to win in top gear. He cannot become battle hardened through flat out gunfights. I fully believe that the hustling aspect of the game is the reason that a lot of US players never realize their full potential. They are always sizing up their opponents, calculating the moves, adjusting their playing style. I think the Europeans, the Japanese, the Taiwanese and of course, the Filipinos, just play flat out and therefore they are more consistent on average. Of course anyone involved in the world of gambling on pool has hustled to some degree or another at times. I think though that for the most part the Filipinos and the Taiwanese are looking to match up fairly and not have a lock. In the USA 99.99% of the players on the road matching up are looking for a lock. And this doesn't do anything to make them better or stronger players. Any road player knows you can't make a living playing pool for money when your games all have a 50% chance of success.

Why is Dennis Orcullo so strong? Because he isn't hustling anyone. He just plays flat out everytime he plays. Do you think Kirkwood does that, or Bartram, or Basavich? Not a chance. They aren't taking on all comers to get stronger, they aren't giving out weight to champions. They are looking for the nuts when they match up.

So having been around for a long time I have yet to see anyone step over the line from being primarily a hustler to becoming a consistent world class pro. Sure there are plenty of guys who came in off the road, Jimmy Wetch, Basavich, and so on, but none of them have lived up to the potential they showed. Why? Well, in my opinion, it's because they spent a lot of their formative years in pool holding back.
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For you to say that players such as Bartram and Kirkwood only play when they have the "nuts" is simply ignorant. Were you not there in DCC when Chris got out of line matching up with Orcullo not once but twice??? If anybody was stealing, it was Dennis. I can guarante you if Chris thought he was the best player in the world, he would not be asking for weight, he would be smashing people all day just like Orcullo. Has anyone ever considered that players natural talent may come into play also. Ask 1000 young kids at any school in America, if they could be great at one sport, what would it be? I bet you not one kid will say pool. Our top athletes play basketball, baseball, football, and now many play golf. Golf has came a long way in getting the top level athletes to focus on that sport. I love Bartram to death, but do you honestly think he has the natural God given abilities as someone such as a Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. So, IMO America will never produce the quanity of great players they do in the Phillipenes or Taiwan. However, America wil still produce players with world class ability, (eg. Corey, Archer, Strcikland, etc.) As for players that hone their skills on the road, ask any player that has been literally "on the road," and I promise it improved their game.
 
billychips said:
For you to say that players such as Bartram and Kirkwood only play when they have the "nuts" is simply ignorant. Were you not there in DCC when Chris got out of line matching up with Orcullo not once but twice??? If anybody was stealing, it was Dennis. I can guarante you if Chris thought he was the best player in the world, he would not be asking for weight, he would be smashing people all day just like Orcullo. Has anyone ever considered that players natural talent may come into play also. Ask 1000 young kids at any school in America, if they could be great at one sport, what would it be? I bet you not one kid will say pool. Our top athletes play basketball, baseball, football, and now many play golf. Golf has came a long way in getting the top level athletes to focus on that sport. I love Bartram to death, but do you honestly think he has the natural God given abilities as someone such as a Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. So, IMO America will never produce the quanity of great players they do in the Phillipenes or Taiwan. However, America wil still produce players with world class ability, (eg. Corey, Archer, Strcikland, etc.) As for players that hone their skills on the road, ask any player that has been literally "on the road," and I promise it improved their game.
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Enng, you just echoed what Roadie said. You have to be contantly on the road in America to get better, and you will need to give weight when the competition is not there to even up the match to your skill level. That's what his saying. Orcollo knows his strength, so to give himself a challenge without holding back, he gives spots. To get better, a road player has to stop hustling and start seeking even/better matches.
 
Any player that has been on the road will say it has improved their "game". What they really mean though is that their ability to match up, to adjust to different conditions, to read their opponent and ability to act has improved. Most players wouldn't say that a road trip has jumped them a level in pure ability.

No players go on the road to fleece the suckers and match up where they have the best of it. Ones that don't do this often find themselves either broke or out of action.

Even Orcullo hustled the college kids before he decided to go after the best in order to become the best.

The point is that players will never find out how good they can really be until they come off the stall and show some heart.

I don't know about Bartram's heart. I once witnessed him taking the 7 out from Bobby Pickle and stone cold robbing him. In the words of esteemed action reported Fred Agnir, aka Cornerman, 'Pickle probably needed the 7'. That seems like a nut hunter to me. If he did get "out of line" in matching up with Orcullo at Derby then maybe that is an example of trying to show some heart. But wouldn't it be sad if all those years of laying down have taken away Chris' ability to be world class?
 
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By out of line I am not sure what is meant by Bartram's matching up with Orcullo? I am sure that whatever spot Bartram got from Orcullo that he thought he had the nuts. Showing some heart would have been to play Orcullo dead even.

Bartram beat Orcullo dead even though then what happens to Bartam's action in the States? Answer: it's dead. So the hustling aspect rears it's head again. If Bartram loses getting weight then it only reinforces Orcullo's rep. If he wins then it only shows that Orcullo can't outrun the nuts. Bartram wins either way by not damaging future action. And this line of thinking is WHY a Chris Bartram will never reach the level of a Dennis Orcullo in ability. I personally believe that Bartram could be as good as Orcullo. Just as much as I believe that he won't get there because he is locked in the hustling level of this game.

One of the things I admired about Buddy Hall is that he was williing to give up weight to people he didn't know. Buddy wanted to be known as the best of the best and the guy who gives weight not gets it. Consequently he became known as the best of the best for his time. A feared money game player and a threat to win any tournament he entered. Had he taken the path of laying down to trap opponents then we may never have had the great Buddy Hall to celebrate.

The Filipinos may dominate pool but Buddy Hall dominated them.
 
John Barton said:
By out of line I am not sure what is meant by Bartram's matching up with Orcullo? I am sure that whatever spot Bartram got from Orcullo that he thought he had the nuts. Showing some heart would have been to play Orcullo dead even.

Bartram beat Orcullo dead even though then what happens to Bartam's action in the States? Answer: it's dead. So the hustling aspect rears it's head again. If Bartram loses getting weight then it only reinforces Orcullo's rep. If he wins then it only shows that Orcullo can't outrun the nuts. Bartram wins either way by not damaging future action. And this line of thinking is WHY a Chris Bartram will never reach the level of a Dennis Orcullo in ability. I personally believe that Bartram could be as good as Orcullo. Just as much as I believe that he won't get there because he is locked in the hustling level of this game.

One of the things I admired about Buddy Hall is that he was williing to give up weight to people he didn't know. Buddy wanted to be known as the best of the best and the guy who gives weight not gets it. Consequently he became known as the best of the best for his time. A feared money game player and a threat to win any tournament he entered. Had he taken the path of laying down to trap opponents then we may never have had the great Buddy Hall to celebrate.

The Filipinos may dominate pool but Buddy Hall dominated them.
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Out of line meaning he had no chance of winning that game. Chris playing Dennis even would not have showed heart, but stupidity. He has no chance of beating Orcullo in a long match playing even. Now, it would be different if they were playing cheap. Just because someone matches up well does not mean they have no heart. Chris shows more heart when he is gambling than anyone I have ever saw.
 
John Barton said:
Any player that has been on the road will say it has improved their "game". What they really mean though is that their ability to match up, to adjust to different conditions, to read their opponent and ability to act has improved. Most players wouldn't say that a road trip has jumped them a level in pure ability.

No players go on the road to fleece the suckers and match up where they have the best of it. Ones that don't do this often find themselves either broke or out of action.

Even Orcullo hustled the college kids before he decided to go after the best in order to become the best.

The point is that players will never find out how good they can really be until they come off the stall and show some heart.

I don't know about Bartram's heart. I once witnessed him taking the 7 out from Bobby Pickle and stone cold robbing him. In the words of esteemed action reported Fred Agnir, aka Cornerman, 'Pickle probably needed the 7'. That seems like a nut hunter to me. If he did get "out of line" in matching up with Orcullo at Derby then maybe that is an example of trying to show some heart. But wouldn't it be sad if all those years of laying down have taken away Chris' ability to be world class?
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I can promise you that any player you ask will tell you that being on the road not only improved their ability to match up, but it made them better players. There are exceptions to that, for example there is one very good player that has been on the road for many years who never plays anyone close to his speed. This guy may never get better, but in general ask Danny Basavich or Chris Bartram or even Corey if being on the road made them a better player.
 
billychips said:
I can promise you that any player you ask will tell you that being on the road not only improved their ability to match up, but it made them better players. There are exceptions to that, for example there is one very good player that has been on the road for many years who never plays anyone close to his speed. This guy may never get better, but in general ask Danny Basavich or Chris Bartram or even Corey if being on the road made them a better player.
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I am not totally disagreeing with you. I am just saying that matching up where you have the definite best of it does not improve you as a player. Yes, I am sure that any player on the road became better players, but did they become the best player they could become?

Also I think we need to clarify for the purpose of this discussion which type of road player we are talking about. The type of road player who doesn't play down their speed and get a line on everyone in a town in order to make the nut game is the player who is likely to get better and stronger in tough matchups. The player who does lay down and who does hustle his way across the country is not getting better as a pool player despite anything they say to the contrary. At least in my opinion. I have seen plenty of shortstops totally plateau because of this. They are just plain scared to try anybody except for the players that they feel they have a dead nuts line on.

I am gonna bring this back to Buddy once more. Buddy said of his road trips where he tangled with the best around that he learned something from each of the players he played. The players he named were players who beat him the first time out and he mastered whatever techniques they used and went back to beat them.

I don't see much of that gunslinger attitude these days and I think most people would agree with me. Players aren't going out to test themselves against all the available competition. They are going out to rob as many people as they can. Players who are intent on winning by getting the nuts aren't learning from their opponents.

But what I advocate isn't even really feasible anymore anyway. The only way to bankroll such an endeavor is to either have a well heeled backer or three or to pump up fleecing suckers. Either way there isn't much smart money that wants to fund a player's advancement by putting them into tough action.

Maybe that's one reason the Filipino have it good. Apparently there is plenty of money there that loves to back players and see them go head to head. We can talk about Filipino money vs. American money and the relative worth all we want to but the fact is that there are plenty of wealthy (in American terms) people in the Phillipines who can fund the development of there players and plenty of players who want that backing.

America doesn't have any system close to that. We have backers and stakehorses who are mainly interested in making money off of the players. Those backers have little interest in putting their money on the line in tough action. We have plenty of good and great players here. Plenty that could be every bit as tough as any Filipino. What we don't have is the same opportunities for our players to get tough action for relatively little money. And maybe that's why American player seem to be lagging behind the Phillipines. Take our best players and put them all together within a 100 mile radius and provide them with plenty of wealthy benefactors to back them and you'll see some truly heavy hitters coming up as well.
 
John Barton said:
Take our best players and put them all together within a 100 mile radius and provide them with plenty of wealthy benefactors to back them and you'll see some truly heavy hitters coming up as well.
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Add to that, not scared to lose money. A backer who is only concern is the return on his investment will never help a player. He has to be there in the long run. Many backers in the Philippines are very much established businessmen. Having a good horse in their stable is a status symbol. I'm not really quite so sure if that mentality is present in America.
 
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Filipino dominance? a lot of people here will not accept this fact, just like in tennis, while Federer is DEMOLISHING Roddick they are saying that Roddick is closing in on him......... what a load of crap! :rolleyes:
 
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