Piloted shafts vs flat face shafts
- Thread starter Doug
- Start date
To me it is not so much flat faces vs. piloted as it is the material involved in the joint. Most of the time when you think piloted, you are referring to a SS joint. That can be much different then a flat faced joint that is wood to wood.
However wood to wood joints can also be piloted and there be almost no difference to a flat faced in terms of feel. Then of course you have the screw that can be SS, Titanium, phenolic and even wood in a flat faced joint. This make flat faced joints even different from each other. So there is a lot more to it then just flat faces vs piloted.
Hopefully when you see a joint on a cue makers cue it reflects some philosophy he has about the way he wants his cues to play and not just because he saw it on another cue makers cue. SW cue is a good example, they build the cues they want to build. If you asked them to make you a SS joint cue that plays like a Szamboti I would suspect they would tell you to buy a Szamboti.
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Good knowledge. Thanks for sharing.
piloted -- flat face
when i first started building chris hightower was my mentor, he used 5/16 by 14 piloted joints, and so did i. over the last 15 or so years i have evolved to a 1/2 by 8 wood pin with a flat face. i believe both work great and its up the individual to decide whats best for them.
personally i believe the wood to wood to wood joints allow for better feedback, than the piloted stainless steel joints.
i believe the answer to which is best, is about as alusive as the question, ' how high is up '
when i first started building chris hightower was my mentor, he used 5/16 by 14 piloted joints, and so did i. over the last 15 or so years i have evolved to a 1/2 by 8 wood pin with a flat face. i believe both work great and its up the individual to decide whats best for them.
personally i believe the wood to wood to wood joints allow for better feedback, than the piloted stainless steel joints.
i believe the answer to which is best, is about as alusive as the question, ' how high is up '
I think i heard that some think that piloted joints help keep the shaft and butt lined up better than flat faced joint over time . If there was any slop between the pin and threads i could see this as the nipple on the insert on a piloted shaft may help it stay more true.
I want to comment on this, but it's tough to. I think out of 1000 cuemakers, 900 of them have no idea why there was a pilot and what the evolution, de-evolution has been. Cuemakers who don't know (and have only been building cues for a few years) will tell me that I don't know $hit even though I'm an assembly engineer. Oh well.
In the end, whether one uses a pilot or not a pilot, the fit is paramount. In a blind taste test by the late John McChesney, it wasn't really possible to tell what kind of joint a cue had. I
Freddie
When I make my cues, the thread pulls the two parts together, and the short pilot, does the radial alignment of the shaft to the handle.
The radial threads and others that go directly into the wood , rely on the fit of the pin to the shaft for the radial alignment.
In reality, it does not matter if the join is not radially aligned.The important part is that it is still straight,ie faces are perpendicular to the axis of the handle and shaft.
Only a small number of players are capable of detecting the frequency changes between various pin material combinations .I am not one of them.
Neil
The radial threads and others that go directly into the wood , rely on the fit of the pin to the shaft for the radial alignment.
In reality, it does not matter if the join is not radially aligned.The important part is that it is still straight,ie faces are perpendicular to the axis of the handle and shaft.
Only a small number of players are capable of detecting the frequency changes between various pin material combinations .I am not one of them.
Neil
Most of the strength in a joint comes from the flat faces of the joint and shaft being screwed together (hopefully perfectly mated). The pilot does literally nothing in most joints.
In my opinion, the pilot we see today evolved from the old cues that had long screws and deep pilots. In those cues, there probably was a purpose but in today's cues, it's form over function.
Aftermarket shaft makers put a pilot on a shaft (if the original had one) because the customer expects to see it. Because of tolerance differences between production cue makers, they make the pilot so thin it just floats in the joint.
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I can attest to the fact that flat faced ivory joints feel differently than a piloted ivory joint. Paul Mottey is considered to be the "Master" of piloted ivory joints and his are considered the "best of the best". My Mottey cue feels amazing and anyone that tried my cue says it the best hitting cue they've tried.......until I let them play with my Scruggs cue that has a flat ivory joint and of course, wood face shafts.
The Scruggs cue definitely plays differently than the Mottey and you can feel the difference in the fingers of your hand on the wrap when you stroke the cue ball. The flat faced ivory joint with wood face shafts is just an amazing combination to have and IMO...... it's the best cue joint available. I ordered my new custom being built right now with a flat faced ivory joint and big pin screw because it's the only way to go when you have a choice.
The Scruggs cue definitely plays differently than the Mottey and you can feel the difference in the fingers of your hand on the wrap when you stroke the cue ball. The flat faced ivory joint with wood face shafts is just an amazing combination to have and IMO...... it's the best cue joint available. I ordered my new custom being built right now with a flat faced ivory joint and big pin screw because it's the only way to go when you have a choice.
My custom Cameron cue is a flat faced wood to wood joint and my favorite production cue is a Joss with their standard piloted SS joint. I like them both very much but for some reason I prefer the Joss when playing 9 ball and the Cameron for everything else.
So for me I guess they are equal. (or maybe it's just that there is more to it than just the joint)
So for me I guess they are equal. (or maybe it's just that there is more to it than just the joint)
Tate and Cornerman's comments are the most understandable to me because in summation they are saying there isn't a functional reason if each are made at the same level of expertise. Pimarily subjective such as saying I "believe or like" one vs the other. Rather more like the reason for using one of a myriad of cue tips:"I believe this one is better vs that one" rather from any actual definable difference. The reason I posed this question for discussion is that I have ordered most all of the higly rated low deflection shafts in order to compare one vs the other. That alone is expensive enough but when you throw in different thread pitches, different size and style of pins, in addition to flat face joints vs piloted joints it becomes fully apparent that I'm sick. So as a cost saving effort I contacted the two more prominate manufacturers and asked could I order their flat faced shaft of the appropriate size and thread pitch for the cues I have which use piloted joints and whether or not I could notice any discernible difference by doing so. Both told me it would make no difference and I wouldn't be able to tell whether I was using a a piloted or flat faced shaft. Doing this allows greater flexibility for using one shaft on several different cues.
There could be one problem. Piloted joints tend to have shorter screws then flat faced. The little insert nipple on the end of the shaft gives you another thread or two as it goes in. Also, the insert on some flat faced shaft may not catch the first thread at the beginning most part of the opening. In other words you may not have the best connection and the cue only held together by a very few threads.
. Also, when they say it does nothing they are referring to most cues you see. On some cues such as Schuler and on many Searing cues the pilot does do something. They make full contact with the inside of the joint sleeve. On some cues made by Dennis Searing it is actually hard to put the cue together the contact is so tight.
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Muttonchops
Banned
My cue has a piloted joint, my old one has a flat face wood on wood radial pin. Sure, cue's play a different, but I' can't tell if it's joint or what?
What about the Lambros Ultra Joint? Lot's of people swear by them. I haven't even seen a Lambros cue in person, but they are very popular. There again, I don't know if it's the cue or the joint? Karl
What about the Lambros Ultra Joint? Lot's of people swear by them. I haven't even seen a Lambros cue in person, but they are very popular. There again, I don't know if it's the cue or the joint? Karl
look guys i hate to burst a bubble
along time a go i beleive dan janes (joss cues)
took several cues put a paper bag around the joint (paraphrasing)
and the pros not only couldnt tell one joint from another but sometimes couldnt pick out there own cue....
..
most humans cant tell the difference
jmho
icbw
just sayin:grin:
along time a go i beleive dan janes (joss cues)
took several cues put a paper bag around the joint (paraphrasing)
and the pros not only couldnt tell one joint from another but sometimes couldnt pick out there own cue....
..most humans cant tell the difference
jmho
icbw
just sayin:grin:
Lambros is a cue that I haven't owned but want to. The mystic of the joint is only one reason; if indeed it is mystique. But I do know this: my friend Danny Smith has one and he play's lights out. But come to think of it I haven't seen a cue he doesn't play lights out with, lol.
look guys i hate to burst a bubble
along time a go i beleive dan janes (joss cues)
took several cues put a paper bag around the joint (paraphrasing)
and the pros not only couldnt tell one joint from another but sometimes couldnt pick out there own cue....
most humans cant tell the difference
jmho
icbw
just sayin:grin:
I can definitely tell the difference between the ping of a steel joint and the soft quiet hit of a wood to wood joint. It is far from being in my mind or my imagination. I haven't played with a steel joint cue in like 40 years. I even had a very rare ivory joint Szamboti he made me. The first time I played with a Martin cue I never went back.
look guys i hate to burst a bubble
along time a go i beleive dan janes (joss cues)
took several cues put a paper bag around the joint (paraphrasing)
and the pros not only couldnt tell one joint from another but sometimes couldnt pick out there own cue....
most humans cant tell the difference
jmho
icbw
just sayin:grin:
So what you are suggesting is if everything on the cue is the same except the joint, people cannot feel a difference ?
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I could tell the difference also but many years ago, today I haven't handled enough cues to be able to tell the difference.
This is also the case with Tascarella and Black Boar cues. The pilot in the last turn or so has a compression fit into the joint. There are a lot of cues ( I won't name them) where the pilot just floats inside without any type of meaningful contact with the inside of the SS Joint.
-dj
I think the inference is that people can tell a difference, but cant reliably state the joint type just by the hit.