Pioneer shafts

Dave Sutton,

Be careful! Predator's patent claims the void hollow. There have been very many cuemakers who have received a "Cease And Desist" letter.


Dave38,

To the best of my knowledge, Predator just used the foam in the very tip end of the cue shaft. Its purpose was to keep debris out of the hollow during construction. They did not want wood chips rattling around in there after the cue shaft was finished.

Dirtypool40,

I know for us, the primary reason for our blank construction is warp resistance. We have the only "Stress Releived" blank on the market. We stress releive each individual segment before it goes into the finished cue shaft. Radial consistency is also a factor, as well as the added strength. We also don't have to have a warehouse full of shaft wood waiting a year before having to cull at least 50% of it.

Matt 24,

Thanks for your business!


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Craig Fales said:
How about some enlightenment KJ.
Click to expand...

Well, in case you missed it....you've already read it.

Mr. Bunnell is correct. Radial construction, be it pie splice or flat-laminination constructed radially does not in itself contribute to lower deflection. Reduced deflection is the result of lowered front-end mass.

Joey is correct. The hollow of a Predator shaft is .250" x 5".
This applies to all Predator shafts, gen1, gen2, 314 & Z.
It is not foam-filled. There is a small foam pad at the entrance of the hollow to act as a cap to the hollow but it is not foam filled. Not the new ones and not the 'old' ones.

Neither OB shafts nor Predator shafts are the subject of this thread.
The OP asked about Pioneer shaft blanks.

Now Mr, Fales, let me ask you. Just how many Predator shafts have you built because I'm close to having built 1,000. By the way, very timely editing of your post.
 
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obv i was joking guys relax. i was taking a crack about how bad the new 314-2's play. any yes ive "modified a few in my time." new and old.
 
kgeorgia said:
Wow Dave! Where did you find a 314 with these measurements?! 4.2oz@12.65!!! I thought that all were feathers!!! lol
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i have a few sources. i have shaft weighed before i buy it. its not that hard to find them 4oz+ ive had a few. some makers say that out of 10 predators they may only find 1 worth using. maybe i found the way to find the 1 without buying 10:thumbup:
 
Sorry but....I only ask for this Pionner shaft and what is cuemaker opinion about this shaft for built a good shaft? I dont like copy any shaft ( Predator, OB...) I like ONLY built a good shaft for my cue???:grin:
 
fiolledapool said:
Sorry but....I only ask for this Pionner shaft and what is cuemaker opinion about this shaft for built a good shaft? I dont like copy any shaft ( Predator, OB...) I like ONLY built a good shaft for my cue???:grin:
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Well, as everything it's all about taste, what is a good shaft for you? Soft hit, hard hit, do you enjoy a one pice shaft or are you
interested in the aiming point should be as "correct" as possible (deflection)?
Everything could be tweaked as mentioned by Dave S, Royce and the other posters, so it would be interesting to hear what you feel is a good shaft?

I have played with a lot of different shafts and cues, but all have been production cues (if my Schon LTD in my avatar is in this category). I have 8-9 cues and at the moment I'm a OB shaft user - only. However moving my OB shafts between cues makes a big difference in feel to it, so I guess my point is that there is a lot of factors which might change the feel to a shaft+cue butt combination.

Personally I think the blank you have tracked down is a good starting point. With you're own techniques (or if you have a cuemaker customizing the shaft) the shaft could most likely be customize to give you the characteristics you are looking for.

Kent
 
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nevermind,i had a long drawn out post about deflection,but it is all a repeat.i will say that low end mass is not the only factor involved in deflection.it is a factor but not the only factor.


i am sure the Pioneer is good and can be made into a shaft just as low in deflection as the OB or Pred.it reminds me of the Dominator shafts that Dominiak sells and they are good.
 
Well, there are many misconceptions about deflection/squirt.

I am pretty well versed in the subject, but I was just interested in your opinion.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
KJ Cues said:
Well, in case you missed it....you've already read it.

Mr. Bunnell is correct. Radial construction, be it pie splice or flat-laminination constructed radially does not in itself contribute to lower deflection. Reduced deflection is the result of lowered front-end mass.

Joey is correct. The hollow of a Predator shaft is .250" x 5".
This applies to all Predator shafts, gen1, gen2, 314 & Z.
It is not foam-filled. There is a small foam pad at the entrance of the hollow to act as a cap to the hollow but it is not foam filled. Not the new ones and not the 'old' ones.

Neither OB shafts nor Predator shafts are the subject of this thread.
The OP asked about Pioneer shaft blanks.

Now Mr, Fales, let me ask you. Just how many Predator shafts have you built because I'm close to having built 1,000. By the way, very timely editing of your post.
Click to expand...
Thanks to Seybert's. And I changed my post because the original was a little out of line.
 
KJ Cues said:
Well, in case you missed it....you've already read it.

Mr. Bunnell is correct. Radial construction, be it pie splice or flat-laminination constructed radially does not in itself contribute to lower deflection. Reduced deflection is the result of lowered front-end mass.

Joey is correct. The hollow of a Predator shaft is .250" x 5".
This applies to all Predator shafts, gen1, gen2, 314 & Z.
It is not foam-filled. There is a small foam pad at the entrance of the hollow to act as a cap to the hollow but it is not foam filled. Not the new ones and not the 'old' ones.

Neither OB shafts nor Predator shafts are the subject of this thread.
The OP asked about Pioneer shaft blanks.

Now Mr, Fales, let me ask you. Just how many Predator shafts have you built because I'm close to having built 1,000. By the way, very timely editing of your post.
Click to expand...

Mr. KJ, first, how and why does less weight/mass cause less cue ball deflection ... is it just known that this is the result ... can it be explained? What particular quality does reducing the weight/mass produce that causes less deflection?

Second, why use radial construction if there are no benefits?
 
hard english said:
Mr. KJ, first, how and why does less weight/mass cause less cue ball deflection ... is it just known that this is the result ... can it be explained? What particular quality does reducing the weight/mass produce that causes less deflection?

Second, why use radial construction if there are no benefits?
Click to expand...

Simple first semester physics. All three of Newton's laws of motion are in play here. "I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it." When the cue tip contacts a cue ball in a non-centered way, either the cue tip or the cue ball will go in the opposite direction. "II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector." "III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." The heavier the diverting force, the more the movement and vice versus. The lighter an object is the easier to put it into motion so, the lighter the end of the shaft, the easier it is for it to move sideways instead pushing the cue ball in the other direction.

When Predator first introduced the Predator shaft the main selling point was that since the shaft was segmented you wouldn't have to spin the shaft to a certain spot to find the sweet spot. Theoretically, the sweet spot was consistent in any direction. I, myself, just believe it is a selling point but then again, that's just my opinion.

Dick
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonh
what is exactly meant by "having built" Predators?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave sutton
i was wondering the same thing

When I use the term 'built' a Pred. shaft I'm referring to building the joint-end to mate & match whatever particular cue I happen to be working on at the time. I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of you know that a Pred. partial comes pre-finished except for the last 6/7" at the joint. Just about every custom that I do has to have a ring-billet built.
You build the ring stack and you build the joint. Of course you sand to blend the taper, finish sand, seal & clear. To me, that's 'built'. If that particular word doesn't do it for you, I'm open to suggestions.
Surely you don't think I'm gluing-up pie splices do you?
Seriously, you guys must be bored.LOL

hard english said:
Mr. KJ, first, how and why does less weight/mass cause less cue ball deflection ... is it just known that this is the result ... can it be explained? What particular quality does reducing the weight/mass produce that causes less deflection?

Second, why use radial construction if there are no benefits?
Click to expand...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1540661#post1540661

Specifically post #6. Follow the link.

There have been countless posts with links to documents that are definitley worth the read. Please do a search. I could post links etc. til the cows cross the Rio Grande but you're the ones seeking the knowledge.
Look, if all you do is ask questions you won't have learned anything except the answers to a bunch of pre-determined questions. There is so much you are going to miss if you don't at least take a few steps for yourselves. I can tell you which way is North but how you get to Santa's castle is up to you. Let me know how you liked the journey and what you saw along the way.

"Second, why use radial construction if there are no benefits?"

I never said that there weren't benefits to radial construction. What I said was "radial construction does not in itself contribute to lower deflection". Mr. Bunnell stated several of the benefits in his post, #21, in his reply to Dirtypool40.

Respectfully, KJ
 
rhncue said:
Simple first semester physics. All three of Newton's laws of motion are in play here. "I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it." When the cue tip contacts a cue ball in a non-centered way, either the cue tip or the cue ball will go in the opposite direction. "II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector." "III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." The heavier the diverting force, the more the movement and vice versus. The lighter an object is the easier to put it into motion so, the lighter the end of the shaft, the easier it is for it to move sideways instead pushing the cue ball in the other direction.

When Predator first introduced the Predator shaft the main selling point was that since the shaft was segmented you wouldn't have to spin the shaft to a certain spot to find the sweet spot. Theoretically, the sweet spot was consistent in any direction. I, myself, just believe it is a selling point but then again, that's just my opinion.

Dick
Click to expand...

Dick,
That is one of the purest explanations I think I've ever seen. Good job. You've still got it. And if you don't, you at least know where to get it. LoL

Unfortunately, the poor guy that started this thread still isn't getting any action. Wish I could help him but I haven't tried the Pioneer blank yet.
 
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RBC said:
Dirtypool40,

I know for us, the primary reason for our blank construction is warp resistance. We have the only "Stress Releived" blank on the market. We stress releive each individual segment before it goes into the finished cue shaft. Radial consistency is also a factor, as well as the added strength. We also don't have to have a warehouse full of shaft wood waiting a year before having to cull at least 50% of it.

Matt 24,

Thanks for your business!


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

Royce

got the shaft today. Damn, it hits a TON!!! VERY stiff, lots of juice, PLUS!!!! it's got dah bonk! :thumbup: (actually, a tight "pink!" tone to it, but very nice.)

I showed it around, not many at the poolroom have seen one. To a man they liked it better than "Brand-P / Stack of legos" and asked where I got one / what they cost.

Sending them your way.

Me? I am going to look to get a couple 13.00 mm blanks for my Davis Full splices being built.

Nice product.... :thumbup:
 
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