Pioneer shafts

rhncue said:
Simple first semester physics. All three of Newton's laws of motion are in play here. "I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it." When the cue tip contacts a cue ball in a non-centered way, either the cue tip or the cue ball will go in the opposite direction. "II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector." "III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." The heavier the diverting force, the more the movement and vice versus. The lighter an object is the easier to put it into motion so, the lighter the end of the shaft, the easier it is for it to move sideways instead pushing the cue ball in the other direction.


Dick
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The one thing this explanation does not address is that chalk introduces friction between the two objects. Friction will not allow the shaft to move to the side.
 
hard english said:
The one thing this explanation does not address is that chalk introduces friction between the two objects. Friction will not allow the shaft to move to the side.
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Friction does not stop the shaft or anything else from moving. It may slow it down and is the same with a heavy shaft as it is with a light one, hence, the light one still moves quicker than the heavy one causing less deviation on the heavier object (the cue ball).

Dick
 
rhncue said:
Friction does not stop the shaft or anything else from moving. It may slow it down and is the same with a heavy shaft as it is with a light one, hence, the light one still moves quicker than the heavy one causing less deviation on the heavier object (the cue ball).

Dick
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I'm not satisfied with the whole explanation, but I do appreciate your effort.

In your opinion, if a standard maple shaft was drilled out and made to have an equal amount of mass as a predator shaft at the tip end, would it produce the same low deflection results?
 
In your opinion, if a standard maple shaft was drilled out and made to have an equal amount of mass as a predator shaft at the tip end, would it produce the same low deflection results?
I think less if the grain is pointing up since wood is weaker parallel to the grain.
Joey~Opening a can of worms ~:eek: :thumbup: :D
 
hard english said:
I'm not satisfied with the whole explanation, but I do appreciate your effort.

In your opinion, if a standard maple shaft was drilled out and made to have an equal amount of mass as a predator shaft at the tip end, would it produce the same low deflection results?
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As Joey said, it makes no difference how you make the last few inches lighter, the fact is the lighter the better. As far as not being satisfied with the whole explanation, well, that is fine with me. I'm aware that there are people who still believe the world is flat and creation took place 7,000 years ago and no amount of theory nor proof will persuade them to change their minds. So be it.

Dick
 
dick your explanation was great.

hard english i dont understand why you say you arent satisifed with the explaintion. its simple when you think about it.

say your standing still and a 5ft talk 100lb asain man is running straight at you. do you think it with be the same result as if ray lewis were running at you? think about it. who do you have a better chance of knocking off course william hung or ray lewis
 
Hard English,

The only thing that the chalk does is attach the tip end of the cue shaft to the cue ball. That is if the chalk is 100% effective, which it most likely isn't.

When the tip end of the cue shaft is "attached" to the ball, the lateral or sideways movement of the tip is what causes the cue ball to spin. If this lateral movement did not happen, then the cue ball would not spin.

One thing to keep in mind is that all this happens in a very small amount of time. The actual movement of the ball and the shaft while they are in contact is very very small.


I urge you to read up on the subject. One good place to start is the link that I think was posted earlier, but here it is again,
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-09.pdf

Bob is one of the most respected "Professors" of the physics of pool. I have spoken with him personally, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for his knowledge. He is a pretty sporty player too!


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Personally I think all this stuff about deflection, curve, sway, bend, hard tips, soft tips and all the other BS is just an excuse for someone who simply can't play.

Forget about all this crapola and practice, practice practice.
 
Arnot,

You are certainly right about the practice thing!

However, knowledge, of the physics involved is not a bad thing. Certainly there will always be those players who think about it too much, and there will always be those that don't think about it enough, but the knowledge is a good thing.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Newton said:
Well, as everything it's all about taste, what is a good shaft for you? Soft hit, hard hit, do you enjoy a one pice shaft or are you
interested in the aiming point should be as "correct" as possible (deflection)?
Everything could be tweaked as mentioned by Dave S, Royce and the other posters, so it would be interesting to hear what you feel is a good shaft?

I have played with a lot of different shafts and cues, but all have been production cues (if my Schon LTD in my avatar is in this category). I have 8-9 cues and at the moment I'm a OB shaft user - only. However moving my OB shafts between cues makes a big difference in feel to it, so I guess my point is that there is a lot of factors which might change the feel to a shaft+cue butt combination.

Personally I think the blank you have tracked down is a good starting point. With you're own techniques (or if you have a cuemaker customizing the shaft) the shaft could most likely be customize to give you the characteristics you are looking for.

Kent
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Thanks Newton, I understand now:wink:
 
RBC said:
Hard English,

The only thing that the chalk does is attach the tip end of the cue shaft to the cue ball. That is if the chalk is 100% effective, which it most likely isn't.

When the tip end of the cue shaft is "attached" to the ball, the lateral or sideways movement of the tip is what causes the cue ball to spin. If this lateral movement did not happen, then the cue ball would not spin.

One thing to keep in mind is that all this happens in a very small amount of time. The actual movement of the ball and the shaft while they are in contact is very very small.


I urge you to read up on the subject. One good place to start is the link that I think was posted earlier, but here it is again,
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-09.pdf

Bob is one of the most respected "Professors" of the physics of pool. I have spoken with him personally, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for his knowledge. He is a pretty sporty player too!


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...

We've all seen the videos on Bob Meucci's website - to the best of my knowledge the black dot shaft does not have any material removed from the tip end or anywhere in the shaft (at least I've never seen it publicized). If this is true, how would you explain the results in Meucci's demonstration. He makes the claim that his shaft produces lower deflection than the shafts tested including the 314-2.
 
We've all seen the videos on Bob Meucci's website - to the best of my knowledge the black dot shaft does not have any material removed from the tip end or anywhere in the shaft (at least I've never seen it publicized). If this is true, how would you explain the results in Meucci's demonstration. He makes the claim that his shaft produces lower deflection than the shafts tested including the 314-2.
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there are other ways to achieve low deflection.i have seen solid maple shafts that were at least as low deflection as Pred and OB or Black Dot.
 
Hard English,

The tests on Meucci's web site don't measure cue ball deflection!

Meucci measures where the object ball goes, not the cue ball. You could take any cue shaft and arrange the distances and the speeds so that the swerve would cancel out the squirt.

An accurate test hits the cue ball hard enough that swerve does not come into play, and it also measures the cue ball only. With Meucci's test, you could actually show negative squirt if you wanted too.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
An accurate test hits the cue ball hard enough that swerve does not come into play,
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out of curiosity,what speed is required to avoid swerve over the length of the shot,say 4 feet?

i was wondering if it was a legitimate speed and not some 15-20mph shot that really would never come up.
 
masonh said:
out of curiosity,what speed is required to avoid swerve over the length of the shot,say 4 feet?

i was wondering if it was a legitimate speed and not some 15-20mph shot that really would never come up.
Click to expand...

This was my next point that I was getting to. I read the article that Mr. Bunnell pointed me to (http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-09.pdf) and it stated something very similar to what Mr. Bunnell said. That is "An accurate test hits the cue ball hard enough that swerve does not come into play..."

Basically deflection really does not come into play on slow speed shots (which could be as high as 95%, depending on your style of play) because swerve cancels out any deflection. So, what were really talking about here is the break shot, which is a legitimate concern because we obviously we want to contact the rack with a great degree of accuracy.
 
i know the Platinum test is at a high speed.i can't remember exactly what it was but i think 15 or 20mph,which is a speed that i will rarely use on a regular shot.if i were to hit a shot that hard i definitely wouldn't be using 2+ tips or english.this is one of the main reasons i always thought that test was BS.not to mention the fact that all the cues they are testing the Pred against are either jump/break cues or some production cue.the test is completely biased toward getting Predator good results.
 
Look up Predators' patent with the U.S. Patent office. There they tell you the truth and not what their ads would like you to believe.
And along with lower front end mass you can add the softness of vacuum dried wood, causing it to move more and which also hides those blems your worried about with it's whiteness.
 
Look up Predators' patent with the U.S. Patent office. There they tell you the truth and not what their ads would like you to believe.
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you happen to have a link?
 
hard english said:
the black dot shaft does not have any material removed from the tip end or anywhere in the shaft
Click to expand...

The black dot, as well as the red dot use ferrules that are pretty much hollow for the last 1/4". The tenon is even sized down to a smaller od for the last bit to make plenty of room....for air.:wink:
 
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