Pivoting systems and their relationship to CTE

Vorpal Cue said:
It's interesting you're using a 2/3 pivot instead of a full 'bite' of half ball. I assume you're talking about 2/3 of the radius and not diameter. How did you arrive at the 2/3 value, trial and error? That's the way I developed my pivot.
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The location of the pivot point on the cue is 2/3 the distance of the length between the CB and the OB. Either I got it from Spidey back in the day or figured it out drawing angles in Adobe Illustrator but in either case 2/3 is an approximation but the closer the better.
 
Elephant Man said:
The location of the pivot point on the cue is 2/3 the distance of the length between the CB and the OB. Either I got it from Spidey back in the day or figured it out drawing angles in Adobe Illustrator but in either case 2/3 is an approximation but the closer the better.
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I misunderstood your statement and thought that you were using a spot on the cue ball 2/3 from center for your pivoting location. I see now that you were talking about the pivoting location on the cue stick. My bad.
 
ENGLISH! said:
Or some would see it as merely the naivete of a young 13 old boy that had just been introduced to the game & full of exuberance & had only been shown Ghost Ball with no mention of that phrase.

Since it was not shown to me... I did discover it... for me... & I did invent it... for me.

Best Wishes for You & Yours

PS I guess only Stan Shuffett can discover manifestations that 'were never supposed to be' but may also not actually be anything that has not always existed or... does not really exist.
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Just introduced and right away thought he discovered an aiming system = narcissistic personality trait.
 
Elephant Man said:
The location of the pivot point on the cue is 2/3 the distance of the length between the CB and the OB. Either I got it from Spidey back in the day or figured it out drawing angles in Adobe Illustrator but in either case 2/3 is an approximation but the closer the better.
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Eman,

How do you use that on a shot where the separation is 6 diamonds?

Best,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Y

PS I've tried to show you the gateway to reality but you have turned your head on several occasions while either ignoring matters or talking around them. That is rather typical from the pro CTE 'side'.
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Translation, my way or the highway.
 
cookie man said:
Just introduced and right away thought he discovered an aiming system = narcissistic personality trait.
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A naive 13 year old boy that knew nothing of the game at that time.

At 63 I am far from naive.

Some Famous Individual once said...

“Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.”

One proves which type mind they have by their actions & what that "choose" to 'discuss'.

Best Wishes for You & Your Family.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
You sound more & more like that guy I thought/think that you might be.

A stationary sphere does not rotate... other than it is on this planet that is rotating around the Sun & hence it too is rotating around the Sun.

If one starts with a false premise, one can then make all kinds of logical assertions & arguments but in the end any logical conclusion will most likely be FALSE because the initial premise was false.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

PS I've tried to show you the gateway to reality but you have turned your head on several occasions while either ignoring matters or talking around them. That is rather typical from the pro CTE 'side'.
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I agree the cue ball is not physically rotating. I'm talking about the RELATIVE rotation of the cue ball that occurs during a move down table. A change in your position can be equated to a relative rotation.

I'm not a 'plant' and this discussion is not out to 'cut you off at the knees'. I believe you have some erroneous concepts about pivoting systems and I only want to help you get a better understanding on how they function.

I'm not on any 'side'. I'm trying to provide a different way to look at things and I hope you can gain an 'Eureka' moment. You don't have to suspend belief in physics and trust in magic. Pivot land isn't a big place. Let me show you around and we can discuss it.
 
Elephant Man said:
You have to pivot behind you. Usually I keep my back hand planted and just slide over the cue tip.
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Got it. That is what I thought.

That is sort of what I do for CJ Wiley's TOI. Actually he gave me a tip & I came up with my way to make the 'parallel' shift to the TOI.

I sort of roll the cue as it also makes a very very small slide. I think that puts a very very slight pivot on the cue & the pivot point is just in front of my back hand... I think.

Thanks & Best Wishes for You & Yours.
 
Vorpal Cue said:
I agree the cue ball is not physically rotating. I'm talking about the RELATIVE rotation of the cue ball that occurs during a move down table. A change in your position can be equated to a relative rotation.

I'm not a 'plant' and this discussion is not out to 'cut you off at the knees'. I believe you have some erroneous concepts about pivoting systems and I only want to help you get a better understanding on how they function.

I'm not on any 'side'. I'm trying to provide a different way to look at things and I hope you can gain an 'Eureka' moment. You don't have to suspend belief in physics and trust in magic. Pivot land isn't a big place. Let me show you around and we can discuss it.
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'Larry',

With all due respect...

I think you have sort of betrayed yourself here.

You say that you are not on any 'side'... yet hope that YOU can provide me with a "Eureka" moment.

In your 1st. sentence you state that you agree with me that the CB is NOT physically rotating...

Then you speak of it rotating as it moves down table & you use the word relative... but do not say relative to what... IT is NOT rotating & you agreed.

Then you state that a change in the shooter's position can be equated to a rotation of the CB... yet agreed that it is NOT physically rotating... so by what suspension of what laws of science can it be equated to be rotating simply because the shooter moves?

You're doing the same kind of double talk & suspension of science that others have done before you.

Yet you ignore, do not even attempt to discuss, my 'proof' about how the setting of the CB into position... Sets/Fixes the OB & subsequent points & lines as defined & Vise Versa.

The two balls set anywhere in the universe with lines between points set those lines & relative points in stone one to the other....

Unless.... those lines are of an actual physical material & the connection between the balls is a physical one...

THEN... If one or both balls physically ROTATE... THEN those points' & lines' orientation to the balls would change.

Go back & read my example of the old time sphere weight bar bells but with the Two Rod connection. That is a physical representation of the ETA/CTE lines between the balls & that 2 rod bar ball can be placed anywhere on the table or in the universe & that relationship WILL NOT CHANGE.... unless one or both balls are PHYSICALLY turned or rotated.

BUT... we are not talking about physical lines of any real material make up...

so with the visually imagined lines between the balls... they, the ballls, could actually be spinning in place & the relationship of the point & lines connecting the balls would be the SAME... as defined.

All a pivot is... is getting offset to the actual line by an amount that the pivot will return the cue stick to the line.

IF a rifleman was going to shoot a shot to a target an equal height from the floor as the rifle when in the shooting position & it is parallel to a level floor & he had a method where he first held the rifle up in the air 90* perpendicular to that floor before lowering it to the shot line(parallel) to the floor to shoot the shot & he hits the target.... fine...

But the next time he does not hold the rifle quiet all the way perpendicular to the floor & again does the 90* of rifle(stick) 'pivot'...
he will miss the target low between the floor & the target.

I know that is alot... but that is what needs to be understood & NOT all of the suspension of the laws of science nor that of human 'nature' & frailties.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.
 
ENGLISH! said:
'Larry',

With all due respect...

I think you have sort of betrayed yourself here.

You say that you are not on any 'side'... yet hope that YOU can provide me with a "Eureka" moment.

In your 1st. sentence you state that you agree with me that the CB is NOT physically rotating...

Then you speak of it rotating as it moves down table & you use the word relative... but do not say relative to what... IT is NOT rotating & you agreed.

Then you state that a change in the shooter's position can be equated to a rotation of the CB... yet agreed that it is NOT physically rotating... so by what suspension of what laws of science can it be equated to be rotating simply because the shooter moves?

You're doing the same kind of double talk & suspension of science that others have done before you.

Yet you ignore, do not even attempt to discuss, my 'proof' about how the setting of the CB into position... Sets/Fixes the OB & subsequent points & lines as defined & Vise Versa.

The two balls set anywhere in the universe with lines between points set those lines & relative points in stone one to the other....

Unless.... those lines are of an actual physical material & the connection between the balls is a physical one...

THEN... If one or both balls physically ROTATE... THEN those points' & lines' orientation to the balls would change.

Go back & read my example of the old time sphere weight bar bells but with the Two Rod connection. That is a physical representation of the ETA/CTE lines between the balls & that 2 rod bar ball can be placed anywhere on the table or in the universe & that relationship WILL NOT CHANGE.... unless one or both balls are PHYSICALLY turned or rotated.

BUT... we are not talking about physical lines of any real material make up...

so with the visually imagined lines between the balls... they, the ballls, could actually be spinning in place & the relationship of the point & lines connecting the balls would be the SAME... as defined.

All a pivot is... is getting offset to the actual line by an amount that the pivot will return the cue stick to the line.

IF a rifleman was going to shoot a shot to a target an equal height from the floor as the rifle when in the shooting position & it is parallel to a level floor & he had a method where he first held the rifle up in the air 90* perpendicular to that floor before lowering it to the shot line(parallel) to the floor to shoot the shot & he hits the target.... fine...

But the next time he does not hold the rifle quiet all the way perpendicular to the floor & again does the 90* of rifle(stick) 'pivot'...
he will miss the target low between the floor & the target.

I know that is alot... but that is what needs to be understood & NOT all of the suspension of the laws of science nor that of human 'nature' & frailties.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.
Click to expand...

Larry, are you starting to understand that Rick will disagree with everything you post
 
ENGLISH! said:
'Larry',

With all due respect...

I think you have sort of betrayed yourself here.

You say that you are not on any 'side'... yet hope that YOU can provide me with a "Eureka" moment.

I'm on my side. I believe a pivoting system can be built and I'm trying to show you how to do it.

In your 1st. sentence you state that you agree with me that the CB is NOT physically rotating...

Then you speak of it rotating as it moves down table & you use the word relative... but do not say relative to what... IT is NOT rotating & you agreed.

Then you state that a change in the shooter's position can be equated to a rotation of the CB... yet agreed that it is NOT physically rotating... so by what suspension of what laws of science can it be equated to be rotating simply because the shooter moves?

It's relative motion. I agreed the ball's not spinning, just changing the spot on the edge as you move down table.

You're doing the same kind of double talk & suspension of science that others have done before you.

Yet you ignore, do not even attempt to discuss, my 'proof' about how the setting of the CB into position... Sets/Fixes the OB & subsequent points & lines as defined & Vise Versa.

I'll get to that later when we talk about visuals. First the two points. We have to settle this first.

The two balls set anywhere in the universe with lines between points set those lines & relative points in stone one to the other....

Unless.... those lines are of an actual physical material & the connection between the balls is a physical one...

THEN... If one or both balls physically ROTATE... THEN those points' & lines' orientation to the balls would change.

Go back & read my example of the old time sphere weight bar bells but with the Two Rod connection. That is a physical representation of the ETA/CTE lines between the balls & that 2 rod bar ball can be placed anywhere on the table or in the universe & that relationship WILL NOT CHANGE.... unless one or both balls are PHYSICALLY turned or rotated.

BUT... we are not talking about physical lines of any real material make up...

so with the visually imagined lines between the balls... they, the ballls, could actually be spinning in place & the relationship of the point & lines connecting the balls would be the SAME... as defined.

All a pivot is... is getting offset to the actual line by an amount that the pivot will return the cue stick to the line.

IF a rifleman was going to shoot a shot to a target an equal height from the floor as the rifle when in the shooting position & it is parallel to a level floor & he had a method where he first held the rifle up in the air 90* perpendicular to that floor before lowering it to the shot line(parallel) to the floor to shoot the shot & he hits the target.... fine...

But the next time he does not hold the rifle quiet all the way perpendicular to the floor & again does the 90* of rifle(stick) 'pivot'...
he will miss the target low between the floor & the target.

I know that is alot... but that is what needs to be understood & NOT all of the suspension of the laws of science nor that of human 'nature' & frailties.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.
Click to expand...

Set a cube on the surface of the pool table and get directly behind it until you see a perfect square. Move down table. Do you see the face of the cube as a perfect square now? Of course not. How can you see that perfect square from where you are now? You can rotate the cube into position or walk back up table. The view you get can be obtained by a movement or a rotation. That's what I mean by relative rotation.
 
Vorpal Cue said:
Set a cube on the surface of the pool table and get directly behind it until you see a perfect square. Move down table. Do you see the face of the cube as a perfect square now? Of course not. How can you see that perfect square from where you are now? You can rotate the cube into position or walk back up table. The view you get can be obtained by a movement or a rotation. That's what I mean by relative rotation.
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The ball or cube is stationary & does not & has not rotated at all. It is you that has moved to a different physical location & are viewing the object from a different perspective.

That said... where it appears you are going with this 'we' have already gone before... & it is invalid...

as a sphere has a rather unique quality compared to other shapes... as the view of its shape does NOT change as ones physical viewing position changes.

'We' have also been down the road where some CTEers want to dictate the discussion while demanding that their points be considered while completely ignoring those on the other 'side'.

So... since you seem be doing that same thing. I am NOT going any further until YOU consider & address my sphere weight barbel with the two connecting rods.

Best Wishes for You & Your.

PS You appear to be more like another with every post.
 
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Vorpal Cue said:
I agree the cue ball is not physically rotating. I'm talking about the RELATIVE rotation of the cue ball that occurs during a move down table. A change in your position can be equated to a relative rotation.

I'm not a 'plant' and this discussion is not out to 'cut you off at the knees'. I believe you have some erroneous concepts about pivoting systems and I only want to help you get a better understanding on how they function.

I'm not on any 'side'. I'm trying to provide a different way to look at things and I hope you can gain an 'Eureka' moment. You don't have to suspend belief in physics and trust in magic. Pivot land isn't a big place. Let me show you around and we can discuss it.
Click to expand...

What erroneous concepts about pivoting 'systems' do you believe that I have?
 
ENGLISH! said:
The ball or cube is stationary & does not & has not rotated at all. It is you that has moved to a different physical location & are viewing the object from a different perspective.

Correct. I'm saying that you can get that same perfect square look from your new perspective if you would have someone rotate the cube in your direction the required number of degrees. That rotation amount would depend on how far you moved. Hope you see that.

That said... where it appears you are going with this 'we' have already gone before... & it is invalid...

I'm trying to prove my points with physics. You just have to believe in science.

as a sphere has a rather unique quality compared to other shapes as the view of its shape does NOT change as ones physical viewing position changes.

It's shape doesn't change but it still obeys the laws of physics. At the risk of crossing some eyes, let's talk about the tangent point of the cue ball from your point of view. If you have a ball on the center spot and you're standing at a side pocket, when you look at the ball is has just two tangent points, left and right edge. If you move down table and look at the ball from your new position, you'll see the tangent lines don't mark the same position on the ball as the first view. The migration of the tangent points and the difference between them is important to understand. Pivoting systems work by this mechanism.

Are you implying that

'We' have also been down the road where some CTEers want to dictate the discussion while demanding that their points be considered while completely ignoring those on the other 'side'.

I'm pointing out how physical laws work with my system. If you don't want to look under the hood it's your decision.

So... since you seem be doing that same thing. I am NOT going any further until YOU consider & address my sphere weight barbel with the two connecting rods.

Best Wishes for You & Your.

PS You appear to be more like another with every post.
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Rick,

The relative rotation concept is the key to the puzzle and crucial to understand the operation. If you can get past that hurdle the rest is mundane. (Mostly) :)
 
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