Play Your Best Straight Pool, p. 34

[7stud]

On p. 34 of "Play Your Best Straight Pool (2015)", there is a diagram titled "Soft Outside Draw", which shows an approximately 30 degree cut shot:

The diagram in the book says the aim line is the dotted line, i.e. the left side of the pocket. I don't understand that. If you were hitting center ball, then in order to compensate for cut induced throw, you would need to aim to overcut the ball into the right side of the pocket, so you would have to hit the OB after the CB compressed the cushion a bit. With outside, or gearing english, like in the diagram, you don't have to compensate for cut induced throw, but now you have to compensate for the CB squirting to the right, so once again you would have to aim to overcut the ball into the right side of the pocket, and the squirt would cause the CB to hit the OB a little fuller, aimed right at the center of the pocket opening. Why does the author say the aim line is to the left side of the pocket? I think if you aim at the left side of the pocket, the squirt will cause you to hit the OB even fuller than that aim line, causing the OB to rebound off the rail and miss the pocket.

 

[Pin]

Looks different to what I'd expect too. The usual advice is to aim a little thinner than you normally would, so the opposite. I guess try both and see.

If you aim for the cue ball to contact the object ball a little too thick (i.e., after any squirt) and use outside English to throw the OB wider, in theory you could offset the thick contact, but I can't see it working in practice because you'd need a lot of English-induced throw.

Why not try the shot various ways and tell us all what your results say?

Is this the Capelle book? I'd consider him pretty credible, but it looks odd.

 

[Poolmanis]

Sometimes there is flaws on books too. Just ignore content if it not make any sense to you.

 

[Bob Jewett]

On p. 34 of "Play Your Best Straight Pool (2015)", there is a diagram titled "Soft Outside Draw", which shows an approximately 30 degree cut shot:

View attachment 596069

The diagram in the book says the aim line is the dotted line, i.e. the left side of the pocket. I don't understand that. ...

I believe that the point Phil is making is that if you have "excess" left on the cue ball when it arrives at the 2 ball, the line of centers should be to the left side of the pocket to put the 2 ball in the pocket. In this case, "excess" means that the surface of the cue ball is moving left-to-right across the 2 ball, throwing it to the right.

 

[7stud]

If you aim for the cue ball to contact the object ball a little too thick (i.e., after any squirt) and use outside English to throw the OB wider, in theory you could offset the thick contact, but I can't see it working in practice because you'd need a lot of English-induced throw.

Okay, in my head I was thinking "gearing English", but if you hit the CB with more than gearing spin, then the OB would be thrown to the right. Of course, the proposed aim point still neglects squirt and cut induced throw.

 

[sparkle84]

The key word here is "soft". Very little squirt here and certainly no CIT. Swerve and possibly a slight masse effect are in play here, also a fair amount of SIT. Believe it or not, it's actually very easy to overcut this shot.

 

[Poolmanis]

btw diagram shows up 20-22 degree cut. not 30. Just nitpicking. Because my aiming include thinking cut angle in number before i shoot. I see it even from this diagram right away.

 

[Poolmanis]

The key word here is "soft". Very little squirt here and certainly no CIT. Swerve and possibly a slight masse effect are in play here, also a fair amount of SIT. Believe it or not, it's actually very easy to overcut this shot.

30 degree cuts have most of collision included throw and soft shots make it even more. Also you need to shoot this shot hard enough to bring cueball backwards.
That been said with a lot of low left you probably should still hit object ball before rail to make it good. Especially if cut is 20 degrees like diagram shows.

 

[alstl]

The key word here is "soft". Very little squirt here and certainly no CIT. Swerve and possibly a slight masse effect are in play here, also a fair amount of SIT. Believe it or not, it's actually very easy to overcut this shot.

You can use that shot to get around a slightly blocking ball. Good shot to know.

 

[7stud]

The key word here is "soft". Very little squirt here

According to Dr. Dave, squirt is the same no matter what the speed.

and certainly no CIT.

Can you explain why there's no CIT?

Swerve and possibly a slight masse effect are in play here, also a fair amount of SIT. Believe it or not, it's actually very easy to overcut this shot.

According to Dr. Dave, when you hit the left side of the CB, squirt will send the CB to the right, then swerve will cause the CB to curve to the left, canceling out some of the squirt, but the net deflection will be to the right. If you elevate the cue, then you can get the swerve to cancel the squirt, but there is nothing in the shot description about elevating the cue.

Believe it or not, it's actually very easy to overcut this shot.

Some day, I hope to be able to practice that shot and find out.

 

[Dan White]

According to Dr. Dave, squirt is the same no matter what the speed.



Can you explain why there's no CIT?


According to Dr. Dave, when you hit the left side of the CB, squirt will send the CB to the right, then swerve will cause the CB to curve to the left, canceling out some of the squirt, but the net deflection will be to the right. If you elevate the cue, then you can get the swerve to cancel the squirt, but there is nothing in the shot description about elevating the cue.

You are leaving out where you are pointing the cue. Back hand english will cancel out some, all, or more than all of the squirt. When I shoot this shot and I want to aim a little fat, all those variables are taken into account so that I end up sending the cue ball where I want it to go, namely a little fat or full on the ob. You just have to know your cue and practice it.

I just hit this shot several times and the diagram is correct. You can even hit low outside a bit harder and it still goes in nicely. If you attempt to hit rail first as if there were no english on the cue ball you will likely miss. It seems SIT is a bigger player than you are giving credit.

 

[sparkle84]

According to Dr. Dave, squirt is the same no matter what the speed.



Can you explain why there's no CIT?


According to Dr. Dave, when you hit the left side of the CB, squirt will send the CB to the right, then swerve will cause the CB to curve to the left, canceling out some of the squirt, but the net deflection will be to the right. If you elevate the cue, then you can get the swerve to cancel the squirt, but there is nothing in the shot description about elevating the cue.



Some day, I hope to be able to practice that shot and find out.

I have a great deal of admiration for Dr Daves work and often recommend his material to people interested in learning how the balls work.
However, if he somewhere suggests that speed has no bearing on deflection he's wrong.

To my knowledge, CIT is negated when using running English.

If you soft draw a shot you must hit very low on the CB which means there will be a certain degree of elevation, enough to introduce enhanced swerve and possibly a slight masse effect. With soft speed, initial deflection is minimal and easily overcome by swerve, masse and SIT.

Why can't you go on a table and see for yourself?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I have a great deal of admiration for Dr Daves work and often recommend his material to people interested in learning how the balls work.
However, if he somewhere suggests that speed has no bearing on deflection he's wrong.
...

It is very, very hard to separate squirt and swerve. On most slow shots with side spin it appears that there is less squirt. I believe there is simply more swerve and sooner. On a slow shot, the swerve can take place in the first inch of travel, depending.