Please help me to range these 9/10-ball handicaps

Vahmurka

Vahmurka

...and I get all da rolls
Silver Member
We are going to modify our local league handicaps for rotational games (9-ball and 10-ball), 8-ball is next. So far we have been using only giving spot in racks on the wire, like players of different skill level matching 6-4 or 9-5.
Our idea is to make the system more flexible, and I think it's good to introduce balls spot, just like they use in the US to match up. But since we are not familiar with it I have problems understanding how hard or easy various balls handicap is (compared to racks on the wire).

So far here are types of spot we consider (equal race to X unless racks are spotted) :

  • play even
  • spot one rack
  • spot two racks
  • spot one ball (weaker player has the 8 and 9 in 9-ball, 9 and 10 in 10-ball)
  • spot two balls (7 8 9 in 9-ball, 8 9 10 in 10-ball)
  • spot a rack AND a ball
  • spot a rack AND two balls
  • spot two racks AND a ball
  • spot a rack AND two balls

We will define 7 or 8 player skill levels, so one or two of the above mentioned handicaps will have to be omitted.

Please help me and range those handicaps from easiest to hardest. If you have anything to comment, please feel free to do that, much appreciated.

P.S. I believe giving an opponent a ball is easier than a rack, but my pals say I'm wrong...
 
Your pals are right.

Spotting balls is much tougher than spotting games, unless the games spotted are a huge number.

This is why: if you are playing someone much better than you, a spotted game is not enough because you cannot get there. A spotted ball, especially 'wild' can win you a game. Enough of that and you win the set. This applies to players of significant skill differences of course.


This is tough to explain, but let me put it another way: SVB can spot a scrub like me 15 games on the wire race to 20 and I am not going to have a chance in hell. Not remotely. But if he spots me the 3-out, race to 20 it is going to be much tougher on him. I'd still get horsef&cked, but still. :)


Edit: I thought of another example: if you are playing someone of your skill level, would YOU rather have a game on the wire or be spotted a ball? No contest. One free game vs most likely several.
 
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Spider1 said:
Your pals are right.

Spotting balls is much tougher than spotting games, unless the games spotted are a huge number.

This is why: if you are playing someone much better than you, a spotted game is not enough because you cannot get there. A spotted ball, especially 'wild' can win you a game. Enough of that and you win the set. This applies to players of significant skill differences of course.


This is tough to explain, but let me put it another way: SVB can spot a scrub like me 15 games on the wire race to 20 and I am not going to have a chance in hell. Not remotely. But if he spots me the 3-out, race to 20 it is going to be much tougher on him. I'd still get horsef&cked, but still. :)


Edit: I thought of another example: if you are playing someone of your skill level, would YOU rather have a game on the wire or be spotted a ball? No contest. One free game vs most likely several.
Click to expand...


It depends on the skill level of the players you are trying to handicap. If you have weaker players against weaker players, the ball spots are much bigger weight because they come into play nearly every game. If you have stonger players vs stronger players, the 8 is almost no spot because it rarely comes into play, whereas a game on the wire or two is guaranteed to come into play.
 
Spider1 said:
if you are playing someone of your skill level, would YOU rather have a game on the wire or be spotted a ball?
Click to expand...
I asked myself the same, and thought of an opponent not equal to me but a tad weaker. For any reason I feel spotting him a ball would be easier. But like I said, I've never tried that. Maybe as soon as I do I change my opinion ;)


Masayoshi said:
It depends on the skill level of the players you are trying to handicap.
Click to expand...
thanks for a wise comment, I felt smth like that was on but couldn't put to words ;)

Guys I still would be thankful if you rate the handicaps...
 
The whole thing with ball spots is that in many situations they're a gaffy bet,
designed to trick players into thinking they have enough weight to win, when really they don't.
Whether they're wild or count on the break is huge.

D vs F player: coin flip who gets to game ball first. So which ball = game ball is irrelevant.

D vs A player: the A player will have the game firmly in hand by the third ball, so unless the spot is the 4-out, any ball spot is irrelevant.

C vs B player: these are the guys who can dog their game ball, or the ball before, so getting those balls is quite helpful for either. That's probably why getting the 7 or 8 is a popular spot, because this is the level where it matters most.

A vs AAA player: unless the ball is wild or counts on the break, either player will run out an open rack and one or two balls is fairly meaningless. The guy who reaches the 7 or 8 ball would have finished the rack usually.

To me, spots based on balls are just further muddying a game with a lot of randomness by adding even more randomness. Games is much more fair but then it gets ridiculous, a C player might need like 75% of his games spotted to beat an A player.
 
Its close!

I think you guys are right..., but there is one thing that can change it. If the player (C level) is getting the wild 7 or b from the player (A level) and player (c) has a very good break and guts..., it can be close...,

You can nevr discount stones!
 
Good question mike

What a good thread and intelligent replies. I think the whole question depends on how difficult the table is. Naturally, on a super tough table ball spots come into play more than game spots. Buddy Hall told me, no matter what the spot is, the better player has control of the game. Then, he showed me what he meant by spotting me the six ball, playing nine ball, on his home table. At the time, I was a full time road hustler with a pretty good win/loss record on the road. I ran out pretty consistently but playing buddy, that didn't mean squat. Mr. Hall never missed a ball. Had there been a game spot instead the difference still wouldn't have come into play. This doesn't answer your question but it gave me a chance to tell how Buddy tortured me...bless his heart.
Spacebo for including me, my friend.
Keep it nice. Alfie
 
How about using a "wild ball" idea?

This is totally outside the box, but I throw it out for consideration.

Wild ball - the lower skilled player makes it for the win.



Rather than balls spotted or racks, has anyone tried using wild balls?

For example:
A against B player - wild ball is 7 (for B player)
A against C player - wild balls are 4 & 7 (for C player).
B against C player - wild ball is 5 (for C player).

This handicapping concept is a rough idea - but it could be used as a standalone, or combined with racks.
 
Alf, thanks a lot for reply, as I asked for your look at it. I understand the concept of gambling is different than tournament play, at gambling one has to get an edge while we are trying to have match-ups close to even ;)

allanpsand said:
Wild ball - the lower skilled player makes it for the win.
Rather than balls spotted or racks, has anyone tried using wild balls?

This handicapping concept is a rough idea - but it could be used as a standalone, or combined with racks.
Click to expand...

yes, we are going to do exactly this - combine balls hcp with racks. I can't get though why you make difference between balls spot and wild balls, as I view it to be the same thing :) I may be wrong of course.

I will quote the concept I like from one of similar threads:

players are rated from C- to AAA+ (10 categories), handicaps are

8-ball,
8 and the breaks,
7 and the breaks,
7, 8 and the breaks,
6, 8 and the breaks,
5, 7 and the breaks,

then they add racks on the wire. I assume racks are added to the last step of hcp, that is the next is 5, 7, the breaks AND 1 rack. Then the same and two racks, and finally 3 racks. That's what AAA+ will give C- player.


There are some questions in regard with this one already. Do I understand correct that money ball (9-ball in this example) also counts for a weaker player? So that with 5 and 7 he always has a winning 9-ball, thus he's got three money balls in the rack?

Next, I wonder how racking is arranged IF those money balls are wild? There must be an agreement that money balls can't be wing balls which often go on the break?
So far I feel it right to force weaker player to make a call shot attempt at the money ball, whichever it is (except for 9-ball).

Also, as I learned from the earlier posts, it's not possible to use this system straight, like "if there is one level separating players we use hcp #1 (giving 8-ball)". While it would work for C and B players, it will make little difference for AAA+ and AAA.

Also I wonder if strongest players are happy to play without breaking at all.

Please continue sharing your experience.
 
The player not breaking should be able to choose where the wild ball goes in the rack, but cannot change his mind if the opponent decides to break from the opposite side.
 
Neil said:
Used to be 7/5, now it's 5/5. Shorter race makes it tougher for the better players.
Click to expand...

4 games in a race to 5 with the breaks and the call 6. Yep...that would be pretty hard to outrun! ;)

A+ vs D ^^^^^^^

Good looking chart though!

Ken
 
Vahmurka said:
We are going to modify our local league handicaps for rotational games (9-ball and 10-ball), 8-ball is next. So far we have been using only giving spot in racks on the wire, like players of different skill level matching 6-4 or 9-5.
Our idea is to make the system more flexible, and I think it's good to introduce balls spot, just like they use in the US to match up. But since we are not familiar with it I have problems understanding how hard or easy various balls handicap is (compared to racks on the wire).

So far here are types of spot we consider (equal race to X unless racks are spotted) :

  • play even
  • spot one rack
  • spot two racks
  • spot one ball (weaker player has the 8 and 9 in 9-ball, 9 and 10 in 10-ball)
  • spot two balls (7 8 9 in 9-ball, 8 9 10 in 10-ball)
  • spot a rack AND a ball
  • spot a rack AND two balls
  • spot two racks AND a ball
  • spot a rack AND two balls

We will define 7 or 8 player skill levels, so one or two of the above mentioned handicaps will have to be omitted.

Please help me and range those handicaps from easiest to hardest. If you have anything to comment, please feel free to do that, much appreciated.

P.S. I believe giving an opponent a ball is easier than a rack, but my pals say I'm wrong...
Click to expand...

Good thread Vahmurka,
And some good answers too. I do not like to give games on the wire. I like giving balls for the weight difference.
At Buffalo Billiards, in Metairie/New Orleans, Louisiana. There is a handicapped tournament 9 ball type every Tuesday night of the week at 8:PM. The good players give the weaker players the 8 ball playing 9 ball. They flip for the break.

To me it does not seem like a lot of weight being given, but the 8 ball is wild and ends up sitting in a pocket with a combo shot on it. Or the weaker player makes the 8 on the break. And then lights out for the good player. This tournament is a free to enter tournament. Their are champions in it most of the time. And the champions do not win all the time. This might be a good start to try!
Just my 2 cents.

Many Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
thanks LockNLoad, definitely there is good contribution in this thread, thanks everyone!

I searched the forums deeper (this time for 8-ball handicap actually but that's a totally different story), found several good old threads, unfortunately some members that gave sound advice back in 2008 or 2010 are not active now :( Meaning no question to ask them in detail.

I ran across a concept (brought here too by Neil), Masayoshi mentioned it in 2011: last 2, 8 ball, 7 ball, 6 ball, 7 out... Also this great thread (which I would like to bring back to life in some near future because that's the very thing I have been interested since I learnt about various ways of giving weight in 9-ball), akinnyz talks about handicaps in ascending order:
  • Safe 8 (almost never used anymore)
  • Last Two
  • Call 8
  • Wild 8
  • Last Three
  • Call 7
  • Wild 7
  • Last Four
  • Call 7 & 8
  • Wild 7 & 8
  • Call 6
  • Wild 6

So well, please enlighten me what Last two (three) is and how it is different from giving the 8? As far as I understand it, 9-ball is always a winning ball for both players. So giving the 8 basically means the weaker player has the 8 and the 9, which counts two balls. So this "last two" spot confuses me.

Neil, thanks for your table, will give it thorough examination. Though I'm sure our stronger players won't be happy to get into the match with spotting breaks, so we will probably have to adjust in that part.
 
Vahmurka said:
thanks LockNLoad, definitely there is good contribution in this thread, thanks everyone!

I searched the forums deeper (this time for 8-ball handicap actually but that's a totally different story), found several good old threads, unfortunately some members that gave sound advice back in 2008 or 2010 are not active now :( Meaning no question to ask them in detail.

I ran across a concept (brought here too by Neil), Masayoshi mentioned it in 2011: last 2, 8 ball, 7 ball, 6 ball, 7 out... Also this great thread (which I would like to bring back to life in some near future because that's the very thing I have been interested since I learnt about various ways of giving weight in 9-ball), akinnyz talks about handicaps in ascending order:
  • Safe 8 (almost never used anymore)
  • Last Two
  • Call 8
  • Wild 8
  • Last Three
  • Call 7
  • Wild 7
  • Last Four
  • Call 7 & 8
  • Wild 7 & 8
  • Call 6
  • Wild 6

So well, please enlighten me what Last two (three) is and how it is different from giving the 8? As far as I understand it, 9-ball is always a winning ball for both players. So giving the 8 basically means the weaker player has the 8 and the 9, which counts two balls. So this "last two" spot confuses me.

Neil, thanks for your table, will give it thorough examination. Though I'm sure our stronger players won't be happy to get into the match with spotting breaks, so we will probably have to adjust in that part.
Click to expand...

Last two- When you get down to just two balls left on the table, the person getting the last two only has to make the lowest numbered ball for the win. Example- I am giving you the call 8 and the last two. I legally made the 8 earlier in the game. So now, most likely, the last two balls on the table would be the 7 and the 9. If you make the 7, you win and don't have to shoot the 9.

As to the chart I posted- you will find that the better players hate it. Even though the better players still win the tourney 99% of the time. The better players actually have to go "all out" to win, whereas the weaker players will tend to go for the luck factor more often. It will push the better players to perform, but still gives the weaker players a chance. It looks way lopsided for the weaker players, but it's really not. I went weeks at a time cashing in it, now, I'm going through weeks at a time going two and out. The luck factor can be really brutal giving up that kind of weight.
 
Spotting balls can sometimes be deceiving.

Giving up games on the wire is less deceiving, imo.

As others have mentioned, equipment matters, especially when it comes to spotting balls.

Shorter races favor the better players less, than the longer races.

Sometimes the luck factor kicks in for the lesser player in shorter races.

In longer races the luck factor is not as big of a factor.

I would be more inclined to use only spotting balls or only spotting games. Mixing the two only makes it even more difficult.

Another thing you can do is every time a better player wins against a lesser player, they have to increase the spot.
 
Neil said:
Last two- When you get down to just two balls left on the table, the person getting the last two only has to make the lowest numbered ball for the win. Example- I am giving you the call 8 and the last two. I legally made the 8 earlier in the game. So now, most likely, the last two balls on the table would be the 7 and the 9. If you make the 7, you win and don't have to shoot the 9
Click to expand...
thanks, this is what I imagined when asking.
But why is last two referred to as the smallest weight of them all? Last two are on the table up to the very end while if "call weight ball" is made earlier the weaker player has to go for the 9 only.

JoeyA said:
Shorter races favor the better players less, than the longer races.
I would be more inclined to use only spotting balls or only spotting games. Mixing the two only makes it even more difficult.
Click to expand...
Our local ranking system is based on ELO-like rankings. For the time being we use only racks handicap but that results in too long races usually. The tournament for 60 players runs well over 14 hours which is too long and finishes well past midnight which is exhausting too.
So the idea is to minimize races, try to make more pairs that will play even race (but balls handicap will be involved).
 
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Vahmurka said:
thanks, this is what I imagined when asking.
But why is last two referred to as the smallest weight of them all? Last two are on the table up to the very end while if "call weight ball" is made earlier the weaker player has to go for the 9 only.

Our local ranking system is based on ELO-like rankings. For the time being we use only racks handicap but that results in too long races usually. The tournament for 60 players runs well over 14 hours which is too long and finishes well past midnight which is exhausting too.
So the idea is to minimize races, try to make more pairs that will play even race (but balls handicap will be involved).
Click to expand...

You will find a lot of argument about the last two vs. call 8. My feeling is that the last two is only a spot if you get that far, and how often is a person going to make the second to the last ball and not make the last ball?? Whereas, the call 8 can be there the whole game. Thereby potentially being a threat on each and every shot.
 
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