Poker vs Pool
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
whitewolf said:
Good post, Whitewolf.
In hoops, the three point shot is harder to hit than a two point shot, so you get extra for it. One problem I have with giving extra for a runout is that it's not inherently more skillful to run out that to play a safe, have opponent sell out the one ball after making a good hit, and then win on the very next inning. In fact, winning the latter way is usually more skillful.
Limiting the number of safeties allowed has been tried. In a 2004 ESPN 7-ball event, they had a rule that you were allowed a maximum of one safety per rack. You could call safety anytime, even if you were trying to pocket a ball. If you missed a shot, unless you called safety, opponent got ball in hand. Not a bad idea, really, as it allowed you one defensive shot or the chance to play a shot two ways once a rack. Of course, it eliminated safety battles.
whitewolf said:In my day (the 60s) I used to watch the players who ran the rack of 9 ball get double the money.
How about doing this on ESPN, like a three point shot in basketball. Let a player get 3 points for running a rack. This would cut out the safety sh*t wouldn't it? You would have to make the races longer to give a player a change to come back. If the player coming back had to run some racks and he did so, how exciting can you get? Maybe limit the safeties a player can have in a match. This would speed things up a little but may be a little too bizarre.
And now for my craziest idea. Put some regional action into pool. Look at the excitement the NCAA basketball puts out. Have each state put up some players (non-professionals even) and pick the best players. Then let the fans buy lottery tickets by picking teams all the way out to the end. Let half the prize money be donated back to the states or whatever and the fans who pick the best win the rest. Not tell me that wouldn't generate some excitement. Just like selling lottery tickets, only much, much better.
I wasn't good enough in the 60's to run the table. That rule use to piss me off. LOL
Thank you for the response. I don't mean my response to you as negatively as it may sound. I'd just like say here what I'm looking for.
I don't think my idea is a 'crazy idea'. As much as I don't think anything will come of it, I think it is workable.
I'm looking for improvements
If you don't agree with my idea, that would be OK to say.
but I'm not looking to see it quoted above completely unworkable unmanageable ideas.
I was going to edit the above post after reading it, but then decided to just make another post.
whitewolf
You just took the blunt of me being pissed at a poster 'cuteone' about our US open entries. I just think the next post I made no matter what it was about, was going to be negative. I didn't want to justify 'cuteone's post with a response so you got it.
very sorry whitewolf. You post anything you like
JR
whitewolf
You just took the blunt of me being pissed at a poster 'cuteone' about our US open entries. I just think the next post I made no matter what it was about, was going to be negative. I didn't want to justify 'cuteone's post with a response so you got it.
very sorry whitewolf. You post anything you like
JR
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ramdadingdong
Banned
sjm said:
_______________________________________________________________
Sid is the biggest jerk to walk the face of the planet. Somebody please stick a shoe in that guys giant mouth. He is 20 times more stupid and ignorant than Mataya ever was. He thinks he is announcing a wrestling match with all that yelling and screaming. He says one word soft then yells, he wakes me up and I spill me bloody pint. That may play to a bunch of working class cocknies which is what Barry tries to pack the audience with, but it drives me totally insane.
This guy is so bad, I had to turn the volumn off every time he was on. Who needs some jerk to tell me whats going on any way, I play pool, I know when he hits the 4 he goes to the 5. This is almost as stupid as when on the wpba they clap and applaude for every shot even if its a cruze out. What in the hell I must ask is pool doing to its self, programing for morons, assuming we are all morons. It is all very demeaning and degrading to me and I wish to speak out on this issue.
I rememer once a elderly snooker announcer, can't remember the blokes name, on the show pot black a break occured and he did not say a single word until he potted back and was on a century, he came in and said " I say, there can only be one thing on his mind now" He did not say another word, meaning you all knew a 147 was on and possible. It was respect for the viewer, that he did not have to be directed like some moron. During the 130 break he only said one sentence. There is too much announcing, it's becoming over kill. There needs to be a balance, and Sid needs to be taken out and hung.
This announcing style, is insulting to me as a pool player and to me means Barry views us as dumb morons, nothing less than a wrestling audience to be treated the same way. Having all those cocknie weirdows with tensiles in their hair like some alien's in from the planet Zor, I would have never let them in the door, what a distraction that was. What are we doing, turning pool into a freak show to liven it up or what?
Rama, all I know, is I know nothing, I am just a blind squirrel in search of a nut.
ramdadingdong said:_______________________________________________________________
Sid is the biggest jerk to walk the face of the planet. Somebody please stick a shoe in that guys giant mouth. He is 20 times more stupid and ignorant than Mataya ever was. He thinks he is announcing a wrestling match with all that yelling and screaming. He says one word soft then yells, he wakes me up and I spill me bloody pint. That may play to a bunch of working class cocknies which is what Barry tries to pack the audience with, but it drives me totally insane.
This guy is so bad, I had to turn the volumn off every time he was on. Who needs some jerk to tell me whats going on any way, I play pool, I know when he hits the 4 he goes to the 5. This is almost as stupid as when on the wpba they clap and applaude for every shot even if its a cruze out. What in the hell I must ask is pool doing to its self, programing for morons, assuming we are all morons. It is all very demeaning and degrading to me and I wish to speak out on this issue.
I rememer once a elderly snooker announcer, can't remember the blokes name, on the show pot black a break occured and he did not say a single word until he potted back and was on a century, he came in and said " I say, there can only be one thing on his mind now" He did not say another word, meaning you all knew a 147 was on and possible. It was respect for the viewer, that he did not have to be directed like some moron. During the 130 break he only said one sentence. There is too much announcing, it's becoming over kill. There needs to be a balance, and Sid needs to be taken out and hung.
This announcing style, is insulting to me as a pool player and to me means Barry views us as dumb morons, nothing less than a wrestling audience to be treated the same way. Having all those cocknie weirdows with tensiles in their hair like some alien's in from the planet Zor, I would have never let them in the door, what a distraction that was. What are we doing, turning pool into a freak show to liven it up or what?
Rama, all I know, is I know nothing, I am just a blind squirrel in search of a nut.
I just got done reading the recent post you did about resolving flaming wars and thought it was so good. Then I come in to this post and see you doing everything you can to start another one. I don't even know who Sid is, but if you don't like him, then I do. You want to cross wits with someone. Come ahead.
Sorry
Sorry jr and rama you are both wrong.
Rama-Binions does not put up a dime, the players put up all the money in the poker tournaments.
Jr. the cost to enter is 10,000 not 5 and this year there were almost 3,000 players and first was 5 million.
I wish it could happen but I do not think there are 3,000 pool players that could put up that kind of money and have any expectations to even finish in the money whereas almost all poker players have a chance.
CaptainJR said:
Sorry jr and rama you are both wrong.
Rama-Binions does not put up a dime, the players put up all the money in the poker tournaments.
Jr. the cost to enter is 10,000 not 5 and this year there were almost 3,000 players and first was 5 million.
I wish it could happen but I do not think there are 3,000 pool players that could put up that kind of money and have any expectations to even finish in the money whereas almost all poker players have a chance.
ramdadingdong said:_______________________________________________________________
Sid is the biggest jerk to walk the face of the planet. Somebody please stick a shoe in that guys giant mouth. He is 20 times more stupid and ignorant than Mataya ever was. He thinks he is announcing a wrestling match with all that yelling and screaming. He says one word soft then yells, he wakes me up and I spill me bloody pint. That may play to a bunch of working class cocknies which is what Barry tries to pack the audience with, but it drives me totally insane.
This guy is so bad, I had to turn the volumn off every time he was on. Who needs some jerk to tell me whats going on any way, I play pool, I know when he hits the 4 he goes to the 5. This is almost as stupid as when on the wpba they clap and applaude for every shot even if its a cruze out. What in the hell I must ask is pool doing to its self, programing for morons, assuming we are all morons. It is all very demeaning and degrading to me and I wish to speak out on this issue.
I rememer once a elderly snooker announcer, can't remember the blokes name, on the show pot black a break occured and he did not say a single word until he potted back and was on a century, he came in and said " I say, there can only be one thing on his mind now" He did not say another word, meaning you all knew a 147 was on and possible. It was respect for the viewer, that he did not have to be directed like some moron. During the 130 break he only said one sentence. There is too much announcing, it's becoming over kill. There needs to be a balance, and Sid needs to be taken out and hung.
This announcing style, is insulting to me as a pool player and to me means Barry views us as dumb morons, nothing less than a wrestling audience to be treated the same way. Having all those cocknie weirdows with tensiles in their hair like some alien's in from the planet Zor, I would have never let them in the door, what a distraction that was. What are we doing, turning pool into a freak show to liven it up or what?
Rama, all I know, is I know nothing, I am just a blind squirrel in search of a nut.
Ramda, suffice it to say that your supposed distaste for the lingo of the common man is extremely well concealed in your post.
The bottom line is that, whether you think so or not, Sid's personality and enthusiasm helped Barry get Europeans excited about nine ball, and helped turn the WPC into something really special. This matter you raise of "respect for the viewer" is nonsense, because the intended audience is the sports fan, not the pool player. By my standards, the fellow who didn't alert viewers to the possibility of a 147 break and failed to give that potential achievement some context for viewers who have only a casual interest in snooker is a TERRIBLE announcer. No wonder you forget his name!
ramdadingdong said:
You're talking about the legendary 'Whispering' Ted Lowe.
One reason he didn't offer much opinion on the game is that very often he would pick the wrong shot or somehow otherwise put his foot in his mouth.
Sid Wadell is at the other extreme, and sometimes all he is doing is making stupid noises.
I'd prefer intelligent commentary with some personal insights into the character of the players in action. Let the viewers imagine the passion behind their cool exteriors. The agony of defeat and the thrill of victory.
It seems to me that the slowest part of the game is when the guys are deciding a push out. They often take 2 minutes to decide their shot. Imagine this routine on every shot, some games would become a game of chess.CaptainJR said:
I'll suggest the following options:
1. Ring Game: It gives an incentive for players to go for big shots, which we normally never get to see in standard 9 ball. It also has the gambling atmosphere which is great for TV.
2. No safety ball in hand after miss (not foul). This game is pure aggression with a big penalty for losing position. It adds extra pressure to the player as it is absolutely cut throat. No more 30% chance of safety if you miss the 6, 7, 8 or 9 ball. Also, you'll see guys going for huge shots, doubles, plants, using their full range of skills. That would be great for highlights.
Sometimes it is good to have some time to examine a shot choice...build tension...let the audience know the importance of the coming shot. Get time to show the options with the telestrator.
Colin Colenso said:
Nice post, Colin. Much earlier in this thread, I took note of the hybrid game of 7-ball. To save you the trouble of backpedaling, I'll reproduce it:
Limiting the number of safeties allowed has been tried. In a 2004 ESPN 7-ball event, they had a rule that you were allowed a maximum of one safety per rack. You could call safety anytime, even if you were trying to pocket a ball. If you missed a shot, unless you called safety, opponent got ball in hand. Not a bad idea, really, as it allowed you one defensive shot or the chance to play a shot two ways once a rack. Of course, it eliminated safety battles.
Was just wondering how you feel about this format.
Whispering Ted Lowe
Some famous quotes by the legendary, retired Snooker commentator Ted Lowe.
"And Griffiths has looked at that blue ball four times now, and it still hasn't moved."
"Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green."
"That's inches away from being millimetre perfect."
Here is some history on Ted and the development of Snooker as a popular television sport. It all began with one-frame luck outs in the Pot Black series!
Some famous quotes by the legendary, retired Snooker commentator Ted Lowe.
"And Griffiths has looked at that blue ball four times now, and it still hasn't moved."
"Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green."
"That's inches away from being millimetre perfect."
Here is some history on Ted and the development of Snooker as a popular television sport. It all began with one-frame luck outs in the Pot Black series!
sjm said:
It hardly seems necessary for 7-ball, but, two things about this method bother me.
1. I think it would confuse the viewers to have to understand and keep track of the number of safeties nominated.
2. It may not eliminate the semi-safeties where guys play a risky shot and send the cue ball to a safer zone. There may even be delibrate misses which are hard to adjudicate.
With the ball in hand rule following any missed legal pot, playmaking is almost always 100% aggressive and playing for the best possible positions. Kissing out dead balls aggressively instead of getting close and then playing a snooker. This game really brings out player's shot making abilities.
Occaisionally a guy could have no shot at then knock a ball against another to make the clearance harder, but this isn't a big barrier to pros so would be only occaisionally played.
I played this version of the game a lot and it has 4 great features:
1. Every time you come to the table you've got a good shot with an exciting opportunity to clear.
2. There is an extra feeling of pressure to not make mistakes leading to the 9. Any mistake is almost certain doom, which is not the case in standard 9 ball where you may often see several safeties taken on the 9 ball.
3. Allows you to play and watch very aggressive shots which normally would be low percentage in a standard 9 ball game.
4. Fast games and twice as many balls pocketed for the same time as standard 9 ball. Games will average from 2 to 5 minutes depending on players. Pros on TV could probably shoot 15-18 games an hour.
ramdadingdong
Banned
Colin Colenso said:
_________________________________________________-
Thanks colin for the name. I have a rather large library of the pot black series including the first one. I did not want to go searching for him. I agree with you Colin, yelling and shouting I don't need. I don't require somebody to tell me when to be excited. Bring sid over and have him do the commentary on golf during the Ryder cup, they would take him out and drown him in a lake to shut him up. He is a jerk, he is obnoxious, he is a clown. Kim was being a proper gentleman and commentator and thank God he refused to become a carney pitchman like Sid.
Another total clown was again the legendary whispering Joe Wilson, who was a bowling announcer who did not know squat about pool. He did the commentary in the 66 us open where Crane runs 150 and out on the meat man, one of my favorite tapes and matches of all time. This is another one I have to turn the audio off so I don't have to listen to that moron commentate. Jimmy Mataya used to drive me nuts as well with his half ass Minnesota Fats imitation. He was also obnoxious.
Pool needs color, they don't need jerks yelling in the mic IMHO. aH, what do I know, all I really know, is I now know nothing.
Rama...
Announcer Chick Hearn
Rama,
I think it's different strokes for different folks. The good players watching will want something different than a newbie to the game. The newbie may enjoy the bells and whistles, but eventually, I expect the viewers will prefer intelligent and sometimes humorous commentary with the occaisional sledging.
I actually enjoyed listening to Jimmy Mataya with Danny Diliberto at last years Derby City Classic. Perhaps because it was my first time to hear Jimmy so all his jokes and his antics had not worn on me yet.
For the good of the sport the game does need more professional production and intelligent, entertaining commentators. A great example is the legendary Chick Hearn who helped to turn basketball into the sport it is today. See pic below and great article about Chick and his influence on the growth of basketball here.
Also, some things I would like to see to improve broadcasting:
1. Graphical display of speed and tip contact point on cue ball on every shot.
2. Shots of angles of plants, paths to pockets so I can see exactly what the player is looking at and follow the decision making process.
3. Replays of good and bad shots from a couple of angles.
4. Players expressions after good and bad shots.
ramdadingdong said:
Rama,
I think it's different strokes for different folks. The good players watching will want something different than a newbie to the game. The newbie may enjoy the bells and whistles, but eventually, I expect the viewers will prefer intelligent and sometimes humorous commentary with the occaisional sledging.
I actually enjoyed listening to Jimmy Mataya with Danny Diliberto at last years Derby City Classic. Perhaps because it was my first time to hear Jimmy so all his jokes and his antics had not worn on me yet.
For the good of the sport the game does need more professional production and intelligent, entertaining commentators. A great example is the legendary Chick Hearn who helped to turn basketball into the sport it is today. See pic below and great article about Chick and his influence on the growth of basketball here.
Also, some things I would like to see to improve broadcasting:
1. Graphical display of speed and tip contact point on cue ball on every shot.
2. Shots of angles of plants, paths to pockets so I can see exactly what the player is looking at and follow the decision making process.
3. Replays of good and bad shots from a couple of angles.
4. Players expressions after good and bad shots.
ramdadingdong
Banned
Colin Colenso said:Rama,
I think it's different strokes for different folks. The good players watching will want something different than a newbie to the game. The newbie may enjoy the bells and whistles, but eventually, I expect the viewers will prefer intelligent and sometimes humorous commentary with the occaisional sledging.
I actually enjoyed listening to Jimmy Mataya with Danny Diliberto at last years Derby City Classic. Perhaps because it was my first time to hear Jimmy so all his jokes and his antics had not worn on me yet.
_______________________________________________________________
Some of these players a decade ago or more were really bad. A perfect example of this was Keith McCreedy, you did not get any worse off than he got, but he has now turned his life around and I think that is just wonderful and I admire him for this. Mataya was a real smart mouth prick, full of him self. He got so bad he cursed on a broadcast, gave one of the producers the finger, got fired off ESPN and virtually baned out of the game.
What you are now seeing is obviously a new version of him. I spoke of the old version. People do see the errors of their ways and do change. Every one should give people a chance to mend their past and to do right in the future. Jimmy has a wealth of experience and knowledge, channeled and controlled it can be a great thing for the game.
Capt wrote:
I just got done reading the recent post you did about resolving flaming wars and thought it was so good. Then I come in to this post and see you doing everything you can to start another one. I don't even know who Sid is, but if you don't like him, then I do. You want to cross wits with someone. Come ahead.
Capt, dear sir, I am not trying to start any flame war. Cross wits with you, bring it on, argue and fight with you, I have better things to do with my life.
An opinion was made that sid was the greatest, I simply dis agree with this and stated an alternate viewpoint. Sid is the English commentator on the Mosconi cup recently shown on ESPN. Imagine a commentator for a wrestling match, that is Sids act. Barry puts the venue in a working class neighborhood and lets all the working class cocknies in for free because he wants a rowdy crowd. Sid who is educated is doing a bad imitation of a ignorant cocknie. Its all staged and a little too phony for me.
This is a free country and last time I looked we had free speech. The other person had two choices to make, one, be a gentleman, respect my opinion even though he still did not agree with it and respond in a polite manner which he did, or become an animal and respond like one. It is those who respond like that who cause the flame wars.
Sid, when he comes on and is one of the commentators in a match, I grab my remote and hit the mute button, problem solved for me. I will not allow this obnoxious jerk to aggravate me.
Barry Hearn controls snooker, the high end of the sport, saw pool coming and early on gets in to control it as well. The Mosconi cup is his, a English Matchroom production. He is pushing two markets, his high end, his low end.
I object to him turning pool into a copy of a wrestling match with all the yelling and shouting that goes with that. He is playing to the lowest common denominator and I find that insulting to me and to my game. That is not me cup of tea. I don't care what he does across the pond, I just am concered this is seen here and then copied and spreads. Most of what goes on in pool is monkey see monkey do any way. It is a new trend I don't like and wanted to speak out on and have. I do not expect every one to agree with that opinion. IMHO, all I now know, is I know nothing. Ta Ta, Toot Ta Loo...
Rama...
ramdadingdong said:
Good post, Ramda, you make some excellent points. As you note, Barry Hearn's choice to use Sid Waddell and his melodramatic ways to telecast pool tells us something about what demographic he's trying to appeal to, but it also shows what audience he believes is available to him for pool telecasts.
As Colin noted, different strokes for different folks. Some of us, myself included (and I'm well-educated), enjoy Sid's work, others, yourself included, don't, and we're all entitled to our opinion.
Still, what's wrong with a working-class rowdy crowd, and what's wrong with trying to appeal to that obviously huge demographic in the market place? I, for one, don't have a problem with it if (what you've termed) a "wrestling atmosphere" is created. Several friends of mine had been to the WPC, and not one has described the atmosphere there as uncivil.
If the working class rowdies can be drawn to our sport, it can only help. Whatever brings more fans to pool and helps to heighten pool's visisbility is surely good for the game we love and its future. Barry Hearn and Matchroom have shown they can heigthen the game's visibility through their colorful telecasts, and their choice of commentators is part of their formula. Let's hope Barry and Matchroom succeed beyong their wildest dreams.
ramdadingdong
Banned
If the working class rowdies can be drawn to our sport, it can only help. Whatever brings more fans to pool and helps to heighten pool's visisbility is surely good for the game we love and its future. Barry Hearn and Matchroom have shown they can heigthen the game's visibility through their colorful telecasts, and their choice of commentators is part of their formula. Let's hope Barry and Matchroom succeed beyong their wildest dreams.[/QUOTE]
_______________________________________________________________
Everything Barry does he suceeds at.
Talk about somebody that deserves to be in our BCA hall of fame, it is him. The problem is it is a pool hall and a billiard hall, snooker players are not recognized by them yet. Where is Joe and Steve Davis, why are they not in there I must ask?
The majority of our pool players in America are also blue color, go to any league in any pool hall and look around. I sir am from a blue collar family, my father was a teamster truck driver. I achieved a degree from a University and went into corporate upper management and became what in the pool world is know as a suit. I really do see both sides of the coin here.
Our market is the same, but we don't treat them like drunks and ruffians by playing our telecasts to that punk 19 mentality. Now tell me all that xmas tensile in the hair of the weidows freaks they brought over to Vegas is good for pool, I think not. If that was a golf telecast, they would never let the camera on them. Barry could not keep the camera off of them, his paid planted stooges. I see where he is going, how he is doing it and why. I just don't like it. Ah, who listens to me, I am just a blind squirrel in search of a nut who knows nothing. I am just a Ding Dong. Thanks for the polite consideration of my ramblings. Somebody help me, I need it bad...
Rama...
_______________________________________________________________
Everything Barry does he suceeds at.
Talk about somebody that deserves to be in our BCA hall of fame, it is him. The problem is it is a pool hall and a billiard hall, snooker players are not recognized by them yet. Where is Joe and Steve Davis, why are they not in there I must ask?
The majority of our pool players in America are also blue color, go to any league in any pool hall and look around. I sir am from a blue collar family, my father was a teamster truck driver. I achieved a degree from a University and went into corporate upper management and became what in the pool world is know as a suit. I really do see both sides of the coin here.
Our market is the same, but we don't treat them like drunks and ruffians by playing our telecasts to that punk 19 mentality. Now tell me all that xmas tensile in the hair of the weidows freaks they brought over to Vegas is good for pool, I think not. If that was a golf telecast, they would never let the camera on them. Barry could not keep the camera off of them, his paid planted stooges. I see where he is going, how he is doing it and why. I just don't like it. Ah, who listens to me, I am just a blind squirrel in search of a nut who knows nothing. I am just a Ding Dong. Thanks for the polite consideration of my ramblings. Somebody help me, I need it bad...
Rama...
ramdadingdong said:
How true, Ramda. Factoriing in both the WPC and the Mosconi Cup, Barry has probably created the two pool events that are the most important to the future of pool.
I believe the Mosconi Cup, by coming to the US this past year, entered the consciousness of the American pool fans, and, I believe, the event is now destined for greatness. As the WPC event is not televised in the US, the Mosconi Cup is the only time the American pool fans gets to watch an event in which the players exhibit any real emotion. The fist pumping and the high fives and the general level of excitement among the players is something we need more of.
If, in other telecasts, we could somehow generate as much enthusiasm among the players as they do at the Mosconi Cup, we might start to see the players' personalities come out in full force.
Barry has the sport on the right track, and I'd agree with you that his contributions to the sport already merit serious Hall of Fame consideration.
CaptainJR said:
My freind and I tried it. Doesn't work. Totally aggresive 8 ball just doesn't work. To many times ball are to tied up to shoot that aggresively. You end up getting all your balls out of the opponents way and lose the game. So much for that theory. I still like the idea of playing the game that is played by the large majority of people that play. But the rest of my above post just doesn't work.