Poker vs Pool

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Much of this post is reproduced from another post of mine, but some of the words have been changed and there have been additions.

Pokertropolis, an internet poker site, is the presenting sponsor of next week’s UPA Event called the Big Apple 9 Ball Challenge, and it got me thinking a lot about televised pool vs. televised poker. What can pool telecasters learn from televised poker’s meteoric rise in popularity? Though I’m sure somebody could, it wouldn’t be easy to argue that poker is an inherently more interesting game to watch than pool.

Taking in the personalities of the poker players is most of the fun in poker. The player profiles and interviews are fascinating. During a poker hand, players can be stoic, aggressive, passive, quiet, or talkative. When the hand is over, they can be openly elated, devastated, overwhelmed, or disgusted. Another thing I really like about poker is that the announcers are objective. They don't hesitate to praise or knock down the individual decisions of the players. They give you a sense when a player has done something brilliant, creative, reckless or stupid. When a player makes a mistake, they give it some context (inexperienced, still "hot" over that last hand, "out to get" a certain player). They'll tell you that a player bested another in the last poker event and that a revenge motive is in play or that "these two have never much like each other." Such comments heighten our interest in the game. Between the demonstrative animation of the players and the objective critique of the announcers, I get a great sense of the game's psychology, and the game's psychology is absolutely fascinating.

But pool has all these elements, too. Televised pool, unfortunately, focuses on the shots, and rarely on the personalities of the players, and nearly never on the game's psychology. The human element is missing from pool telecasts. The player interviews and profiles leave you nearly in the dark. Far too many pool players act like robots in televised play. When did you last hear an announcer call a player's shot selection to be flat-out wrong? On the contrary, very modest accomplishments are lauded as extraordinary by the pool announcers. Mitch Laurance will watch someone execute a shot that most good players would have at least a 95% success rate on and call it outstanding or comment that it's a shot he's always struggled with. Is this what we need to hear? Though there are a few exceptions, scholars of the game who make it to the microphone are usually nearly as bad, focusing on the good, often acting as an apologist for a player that has just made an error and, in general, covering up the bad in a way that it far from objective. When a scholar of the game is the commentator and sees a player making an ill-advised shot and says nothing, it's really disheartening.

Those of us that have been around pool for a while know that pool players have lots of personality, that they can be demonstratively animated during the play, that they play mind games with their opponents, that they do the right and wrong things for a variety of different reasons, that their behavior may vary from rack to rack and match to match, etc. We also know that this makes them fascinating to us every bit as much as their superb play. Nobody who gets their full dose of pro pool from TV knows it, though, because televised pool manages to drain the game of practically all of its human elements.

Those that televise poker understand the importance of stressing the human element in their game and stage a production that ensures that the focus is on the personalities and on the psychology of poker, and not just on the cards dealt. If the focus were on the cards only, televised poker would be every bit as dull as televised pool.
 
Mornin' sjm,

You pretty much have it pegged. One of the very few commentators that will speak up is Danny D. Have heard him say "That was a bad shot" - "This not the shot to make" "Why did he do that".

You are right. It is almost like they don't want to hurt anybodys feelings. They need to provide "colorful" commentary and the players need to realize they if they screwup they are going to get critized. They have to accept this as a way to bring more interest into the game. Like you say, if poker was just some folks sitting around a table playing cards there would be no interest. I will bet you that a lot of the "performances" by the players are scripted in advance - i.e. - "Ok Mr Wonabuck I'm the producer and this is how it is, if you lose a hand to Ms Gotstits you jump up and knock your chair over in the process" Kinda like the Springer show was. Pool players will watch Coor and Fischer but the general public wants excitment. JMHO

Later, Pel
 
You're absolutely right. Die hard pool fans, which are a distinct minority of the viewing audience, may be watching for the pool, but casual players and non-players could care less about the pool because they're not going to understand the intricacies of the game. Those non-/casual players are the ones TV needs to generate revenue (advertising dollars). How then, can TV garner the interest of non-players? Same way they did with poker. Knowledgeable commentators, real player interviews (not just comments about the current tournament or how well they're playing), showing and explaining the intricacies of the game (why are almost all safety battles edited out?) the way poker does with the lingo, etc. should all be part of the equation. If these things take place, next thing you know, prize funds would increase (didn't the World Poker Championship DOUBLE its fund this year?), more people would play, and players would be rewarded for all their toil in obscurity.

To reinforce SJM, it isn't pool which needs to be sold to the public, it's the players (yes, I've said this before). Everyone knows what poker and pool are. However, I bet there are far more people who know about "the Master," Moneymaker, "Cowboy," and some guy named Doyle than who Reyes, Deuel, Pagulayan, and Strickland are (in this country, at least). Pool coverage needs to take a page from poker's playbook and market the PLAYERS, not the game. Not that the game is being marketed anyway.... When was the last time you saw a commercial saying, "ESPN will have world class 9-ball, Thursday, 8 pm, get the DVR ready." You can't watch ESPN for 10 minutes without seeing a poker commercial, but you'll never see pool advertised. Besides, pool coverage is the first thing cut if a live event runs long, or some special event occurs.

It ain't right, pool is better than poker, dammit!

-djb <-- Thinks Chris Moneymaker is the luckiest bastard on the planet
 
How about giving the pool players enough time to show some personality and emotion, talk the talk and walk the walk. A shot clock in pool to me compairs to a clock used in chess. It just doen't belong there. It is a thinking game. Only if a poker player takes way way to long, time and time again, will they put a timer on him.

CaptJR
 
Once again I laud your comments on this subject, sjm. Another thing that I believe hurts televised pool (albeit far less than what you've mentioned, but still palpably) is the poor grammar of some of the color commentators (especially some men players). I truly believe this can detract from sponsorship potential as well. As far as criticizing shot selection on televised matches, it could be argued that some of the commentators (obviously Mitch but often his sidekicks as well) are less knowledgable than the players they're commentating on, and therefore largely not qualified to discuss a player's errors -- the commentators themselves, being somewhat aware of their inadequacy, may be hesistant to declare a player's opposing shot selection an error. Not to mention that among the top pros there aren't a lot of glaringly obvious errors anyway (it's rare that a player's route for shape or whatever differs from the color commentator's). However, I do believe that you are correct that the experts seem to almost apologize for the players on these occasions, and that this does not provide any insight into, nor facilitate any interest in, the game (and that's a shame).

Pelican, as far as Danny D., does he commentate for ESPN or just Accu-Stats? I don't believe I've heard Danny on an ESPN match before. But it's great that he's willing to criticize the players!

Whitewolf, what a great idea! Keith for color commentator! :D
 
runmout said:
... as Danny D., does he commentate for ESPN or just Accu-Stats? I don't believe I've heard Danny on an ESPN match before. But it's great that he's willing to criticize the players!

Runmout, I agree that the top players don't make a lot of errors in offensive conceptualization, though they do make some. I believe there are more than a few errors in defensive shot selelction, kick shot selelction, and push out strategy, too.

Still, there is big picture commentary, too. How often have you heard, "he should definitely have run out there" or "at this level, there's no excuse for missing that kick (or safety)" or "going for the runout there was a really bad idea", or "he's not taking his time"?

I've never heard Danny D do ESPN commentary, but he sounds like my kind of announcer. Jim Rempe, who has done ESPN commentary, is also very objective and is willing to question the decisions of his fellow professionals.
 
Still, there is big picture commentary, too. How often have you heard, "he should definitely have run out there" or "at this level, there's no excuse for missing that kick (or safety)" or "going for the runout there was a really bad idea", or "he's not taking his time"?

Very true, sjm, you are right -- I almost never hear color commentators say these things, and it would be a refreshing change if they did. I definitely think either a change in the attitude of the commentators or some "new blood" (perhaps in the form of Keith McCready? :) ) would liven things up, in addition to ESPN adding more interviews and player histories to flesh the players out, give them more than two dimensions -- as you pointed out, we do have some real characters!
 
I agree to a point. I think pool is a thinking game but as a TV item it
is rather boring. In golf another boring game to watch on TV there are
more hard shots to show and get worked up about. In pool its always
one match and people want to see the whole match. Why not
broadcast it like golf. they show all the good shots but bounce around the course. We get one table and if they are taking there time people are going to turn the channel. If something was always going on then it would maybe capture their attention. They dont have to show every shot.
I like the personal bios during poker as well. It blends the broadcast a little
better.
Pool playres now have gotten to where they take so much time its crazy.
You got JA picking invisible lint off the table 3 feet from his shot. ONe of the reasons KM is popular is that he plays quickly and with emotion. Earl is the same way. Love him or hate him he wears his emotions on his sleeve. They
let the pools fans inside them a little.
In baseball Barry Bonds is less of a jerk then Earl is in pool but Barry is
hated by many. He does not let anyone inside and it hurts him a little.





CaptainJR said:
How about giving the pool players enough time to show some personality and emotion, talk the talk and walk the walk. A shot clock in pool to me compairs to a clock used in chess. It just doen't belong there. It is a thinking game. Only if a poker player takes way way to long, time and time again, will they put a timer on him.

CaptJR
 
The question

Why do people watch poker and not pool. One might think it is because more people understand poker, but 9 ball isn't that hard to understand, it just takes a lot of skill to play it well. Oh, skill! We haven't talked about that very much.

1. How often have you seen a pool player, that has only been playing for one year, in an internet computer pool game, make it to the final 6 of the world 9 ball championship? You see it all the time in poker.

So we have now eliminated skill, they don't watch poker on TV because of the skill involved in playing it.

Why can't we get 500 to 1000 pool players to put up $3000 of there own money to play in a pool tournament? Because there isn't enough luck in the world for half of them to make it to the money round. I'm not saying that there is no skill in playing poker. I am saying that luck plays a much bigger role in poker than it does in 9ball. And the luck is one of the main things the TV audience is watching. The river card is about to be turned. The TV shows the odds. Player A only has a 12% chance to pull one of the two cards he needs to win the hand. All about luck!

So maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. We need to pick a luckier pool game and shorten the time clock to about 10 seconds. :eek:
 
CaptainJR said:
The question

Why do people watch poker and not pool. One might think it is because more people understand poker, but 9 ball isn't that hard to understand, it just takes a lot of skill to play it well. Oh, skill! We haven't talked about that very much.

1. How often have you seen a pool player, that has only been playing for one year, in an internet computer pool game, make it to the final 6 of the world 9 ball championship? You see it all the time in poker.

So we have now eliminated skill, they don't watch poker on TV because of the skill involved in playing it.

Why can't we get 500 to 1000 pool players to put up $3000 of there own money to play in a pool tournament? Because there isn't enough luck in the world for half of them to make it to the money round. I'm not saying that there is no skill in playing poker. I am saying that luck plays a much bigger role in poker than it does in 9ball. And the luck is one of the main things the TV audience is watching. The river card is about to be turned. The TV shows the odds. Player A only has a 12% chance to pull one of the two cards he needs to win the hand. All about luck!

So maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. We need to pick a luckier pool game and shorten the time clock to about 10 seconds. :eek:

OK, Captain, in the spirit of running with your idea, one way to increase the luck factor in nine ball would be to get rid of the push-out. If you are hooked after the break, you have to masse, kick, or jump. What do you think? LOL
 
I think that matchroom have the best commentators out there. Jerry Forsythe, Jim Wych, Steve Davis, Bob Guerreo (sp? sorry Bob!), and Sid Waddell. They all make a boring game interesting and are not afraid to pull any punches (especially Davis).

What was very cool about this year's WPC was they got Archer and JJ to do the colour commentary on some of the L64/L32 matches. They were great, absolutely vicious when someone made an error in judgement but very complementary on good play. Very good stuff.

The above commentators do a better job than ANYONE I have ever heard on an accustats tape IMO.
 
what i gather from listening to poker players, poker is inherently about reading other players and analyzing their personalities. chan said something about he could beat players without looking at his cards.

from a television perspective, poker is popular because,,,,,, everyone has played it, everyone plays cards, everyone thinks it's mostly luck,,,,and everyone thinks they can win. i mean look,,,,,for whatever nuances ther are through the course of a hand, it seems, inevitably, that the game ends with a "gamble",,,a hope and a prayer that they get their card.

the activity involved in pool and poker is slow and boring, but in poker, as you say, the camera is in on the table and captures the personalities involved. there's no such interaction in pool. a pool player shots or a pool player sits. he doesn't talk when he's sitting,,,that's sharking, and he doesn't talk while he's shooting,,,it doesn't help concentration.......it's like golf.

color commentary won't help pool. there are simple elemental flaws in the game that prevents it from being a viable alternative to other televized games.
 
What about...

Do most casual pool players play nine ball? Maybe some big money televised 8 ball tournaments would help. It seems more people at least start out with 8 ball and then learn other games. Just a thought.

Andy
 
DawgAndy said:
Do most casual pool players play nine ball? Maybe some big money televised 8 ball tournaments would help. It seems more people at least start out with 8 ball and then learn other games. Just a thought.

Andy

Now we're getting somewhere, but the last time I ventured to mention 8 Ball on here I was stuck down big time.

I do have this figured out in my head. Want to hear about it? I'll see if I can write it down.
 
I want to get into Poker, but I'm having trouble understanding the rules at the moment. With pool, if nothing else, I think it's easier to understand the rules.

I also think the TV coverage/broadcasting/videos of the US Open have improved in the last two years, and I think they are learning from Matchroom. Matchroom have the most abililty to make the sport look exciting, I've seen many matches like that. They haven't just been close matches, but with commentators that add pressure with their voices, and the production is the best.
 
OK! Lets make TV pool get watched more.

You need to play the game that is played by the majority of players. That is what I'm saying if the goal here is to get pool on TV to become more popular. After you get that accomplished the rest (9 ball championship, one pocket, etc, etc) will come.

I'm still going to keep to the subject of the thread 'Poker vs. Pool'. I think it is an important comparison because we've watched poker in the last few years go from a couple hours a year on TV, to 6 to 12 hours a week.

Yes I do think that colorful commentary has a lot to do with the success. You have to give them something to work with though. Give the commentators something to argue about.

Let me ask you this question. No, changed my mind, I'm not going to ask because I'm looking for responses to my entire post, not just this paragraph. 100 games of 9 ball. A good player. How many table runs do you get from the first pocketed ball (not necessarily from the break). 30 to 40 maybe. 100 games of 8 ball. A good player. How many? I think maybe 20 to 30. Why is this? Am I saying that 8 ball is more difficult than 9 ball? Nope! Luck, (see above post, they like to see, luck) I think there is a little more luck involved in 8 ball and nobody has all good luck in 8 ball. Sometimes you gamble a little in 8 ball. Have the commentators emphasize this. In poker on TV, the viewers enjoy seeing a newbie in there. This could happen from time to time in 8 ball. Anything can happen in 8 ball. That's why local leagues play it, the luck part gives the weaker player a little bit of a chance if things role right. The important thing here though is to play the game they play.

A very aggressive shot making game must be forced. The TV show MUST have some GREAT SHOTS. Something the crowd would go nuts about. Even if the great shot is missed it is still more exciting. If this would be done, maybe we could keep 9 ball, but I really think that playing the game everyone plays still has merit. How do you force an aggressive game. It would take a couple of rule changes. Not many. Here is one change that might do it by itself. Well, one or the other of two. Might take some experimentation to see which would be more effective or work better.

1. (To the contrary of sjm's suggestion above) make the 'push out' available on every shot.
or
2. Allow 'I'll pass' available on every shot. Now that would be an aggressive game.

#2 might be over doing it. Might have to make push available on any shot passed back. OH! I like that.
I think I'll add #3

3. 'I'll Pass' available on every shot. Push available on passed back shots (as well as 1st shot after the break of course).

By the way, I am keeping the shot clock here. Maybe extending a little longer than 30 seconds. No spending 10 minutes deciding if your going to pass or not.

This probably needs refined, but remember what I'm talking about here. Getting pool more popular and on TV more, which in turn would eventually get the entire (real) championship on TV.

Do me a favor before you chop this to pieces. Read it again, think about it and how much fun it would be to watch.
 
Additionally, if you had this format and player wouldn't have to think they were going to get safetied to death every game, you would get a substantially higher number of entries at maybe $1000 a head. Bigger payouts, more popular on TV. A gamble for your own cash. I think that has something to do with poker being so popular, to a big extent, they are playing with there own money.
 
CaptainJR said:
Additionally, if you had this format and player wouldn't have to think they were going to get safetied to death every game, you would get a substantially higher number of entries at maybe $1000 a head. Bigger payouts, more popular on TV. A gamble for your own cash. I think that has something to do with poker being so popular, to a big extent, they are playing with there own money.

___________________________________________________________________

Poker is an interesting study, you put a bunch of guys on TV that looks like you cleaned out the drunk tank at the jail house and they play poker. If they were playing for $20 chips nobody would care. What sold this was the high stakes, playing for a million bucks.

Pool can duplicate the same thing if somebody can put up the million bucks. This is understood, the problem is nobody has the money. Binions put up the mil to promote their casino and their poker table games.
Rama...
 
Raistlin said:
I think that matchroom have the best commentators out there. Jerry Forsythe, Jim Wych, Steve Davis, Bob Guerreo (sp? sorry Bob!), and Sid Waddell. They all make a boring game interesting and are not afraid to pull any punches (especially Davis).

What was very cool about this year's WPC was they got Archer and JJ to do the colour commentary on some of the L64/L32 matches. They were great, absolutely vicious when someone made an error in judgement but very complementary on good play. Very good stuff.

The above commentators do a better job than ANYONE I have ever heard on an accustats tape IMO.

Sid Waddell is the best pool commentator of all time. He is a Cambridge graduate with a wide range of knowledge and a gift for rhetoric. In some ways, he is similar to Cosell. He sees a pool match as big news the same way Cosell saw a football game as big news, and manages to transfer his limitless enthusiasm for the event to the viewer.

He can be both scholarly and well-spoken, but also has a way of blending in the language of the common sports fan into his commentary in a most impressive way.

I was in London during the Cardiff WPC of 2001, so I saw most of the action on Sky Sports (British Cable TV). In one match, Sid Waddell, teamed with Kim Davenport, was doing commentary, but Kim just couldn't compete. When someone got a super lucky roll, Waddell, in his inimitable, animated style, offered: "Oh, that lady luck, one day she's a bitch, the next day she's a babe." Such language might or might not fly in the US, but Waddell's ability for wild and innovative similes and metaphors is something special.

Waddell gets excited about pool in a way that no other announcer ever has.

By the way, has anyone ever heard him commentate darts? He even manages to make that really exciting. Now that's talent!
 
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