Polishing Balls During a Run

[wrldpro]

Well maybe I can shed light on this subject since everytime it comes up I can teach the novices what happens when the balls are altered.

Having the cue ball cleaned by an official every so often is ok but not fair to have done after every rack and it must be done by a neutral towel meaning the refs towel not the players towel because there are a few players out there(wont mention the names) that have silicone on their towel to have buffed on the cueball to gain an advantage.

Anytime the balls are pulled of the table after a run starts the run can only be some kind of practice and the run that the player runs should never be reviewed as on the square and not to count.

When the balls are polished so often the polish makes the balls open up very easy so just look at some videos and when the player doesnt hardly have any clusters the balls have been polished.

If the balls are put into a ball machine with no polish then they are being cleaned and burnished and the heat that the machine buffs into the balls also make them seperate easy on the breakshots and there for again the player almost never has any cluster and can easily get through racks with out much difficulty.

For what it is worth none of the great players from back in the days such as Lassiter,Mosconi,Crane,sigel, varner and so on never used any silicone or ever had a ball polisher so again the way I see it is doing it in practice then whatever but doing it during a match is CHEATING.

I do know that some top players that are still playing like Holmann ran like 412,Cohen ran like 460,Neils ran over 400, and Thomas Engert ran 492 all without any ball polishers or illegal silicone and Ofcourse I never used either with my little run of 311.

Sorry about the long post and if I offended anyone but the truth must be told for people to understand why the balls react like they do.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou:

I have to agree, with one exception: the cue ball.

Let me say that I am one that enjoys these long run videos, like the runs filmed in Bill's house. I'll correct myself -- I REALLY enjoy these videos, and greatly appreciate the time and effort it takes to collect and upload them! I like to watch how a player, in a relaxed mindset, handles patterns, and what kind of risks he/she takes to ensure the run keeps going.

But, as you infer, I view them in a completely different light than I do, say, a long run that was executed in an actual match, where the player had to actually work for it. One of the reasons why is exactly what this thread is about -- the constant cleaning of the balls. I wouldn't go as far to call it a gaffe (or a circus run), but rather a non-real-life playing environment, different enough to even differentiate these from normal practice runs.

I do view the cleaning of the cue ball to be a different matter, though. Obviously, the cue ball collects chalk from the impact with the cue (and especially that Kamui sh.. -- I mean -- stuff that some people use). So when the cue ball gets dirty enough to cause excess skidding (and hopping, as David/acousticsguru mentions), I see no harm or foul in properly marking the cue ball position and giving a towel or white glove treatment to the cue ball. This, obviously, can be abused as well -- e.g. doing it more than once every single rack can be seen as excessive.

JMHO, however.
-Sean

You agree with me?! (I think I may be having a stroke.)

Though I do agree about the cue ball.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I've seen a rack of balls cleaned during a tournament match between racks, although it's fairly rare. It's not that uncommon to see them wiped with a wet rag during a tourney, and sometimes mid-match, and it's all within the rules. I've also seen players request a new set during a match and get it. It is quite frequent for a player to ask a referee to clean a ball that appears to have something on it (in fact, colored, meaning non-red, snooker balls are typically wiped by the referee before they are placed back on their assigned spots mid-rack). Seems to me that everything that is practical seems to be done when it comes to keeping the balls clean, even in tournament play.

It has often been noted here on the forum that the conditions of yesteryear cannot be duplicated easily. Dirtier balls, slow nappy cloth, high deflection shafts, deader rails, no air conditioning, possibly smaller (4x8) or larger tables (5x10), looser pockets, smoky rooms without air conditioning, were the norm in the good old days.

.... but, to me, all these nuances should all be ignored. It makes sense to me that the players of today use all the conveniences that these times afford them and play on and with the equipment that is typical of these times. There will always be debates when high runs occur, but a high run is a high run, and I wouldn't be inclined to view a high run as illegitimate just because the balls were cleaned or polished during the run.

Soooo, is there a limit or rule on how often a player can ask to have the balls cleaned or wiped down? Or is it at the referee's discretion? And at what point does it become unreasonable? Every four racks? Eight? 12?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm a big fan of cleaning the cue ball every rack, regardless of the game. I think cleaning the other balls every few racks is excessive...plus I doubt many tournaments would put up with it (more than maybe once), either, so there would be a difference between a basement high run and a tournament high run...although I'm not convinced cleaning the balls every rack would make that much difference, since they really don't pick that much up that frequently. Cleaning the cue ball does make a difference, however.

In 9 or 8 ball I like to clean the cue ball myself each time I'm given ball in hand in a tournament match...helps settle me down. In straight pool, I see nothing wrong/improper with a player calling for a cue ball cleaning at the conclusion of each rack during a run, either. Seems pretty shrewd, to me.

I think we're pretty much in agreement. I know that when I'm breaking at 1pocket I usually will wipe the CB down on the side of my jeans.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

cleaning the cueball is so common i think that's a normal part of the game. and as pointed out, Kamui in the equation makes it almost impossible to play without cleaning.

as for other balls, it seems sensible to be able to clean obvious problems, at the very least. even in Sigel's famous 150 against Zuglan, i believe i remember him pointing to an object ball and getting it cleaned.

the very fact that refs used to wear gloves sometimes actually cleaned the balls somewhat with each rack.

running them through a ball cleaner every few racks... well, i dunno, but at least keeping the equipment clean enough to not be Unfair seems okay to me. tables Can get dirty and give bad rolls. i remember seeing Thorsten ask for the table to be cleaned during last year's World match with Alex, although that might've just been about powder.

while we're on the subject, i remember watching a video where the table spot gave John Schmidt TWO bad rolls in one match. not disastrous, but his position certainly would've been better without that nipple pastie getting in the way...

I think we're in general agreement. Balls sets should be cleaned before the start of every match, but not run through a polisher during.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Only the cue ball. On a clean table the others should stay clean. If I see chalk on a object ball I'll wipe it off when its pocketed. I carry a extra cue ball for the lag.

I'm one of the few who get the balls polished before taking a table.

A pet peeve, taking object balls while I'm on a pee break and getting them all chalked up.

Seems like we agree.

And oh yeah -- I also hate the shooting of object balls, or the guy who warms up and then shoots the OBs towards the rack area to start.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Not a great player here, but i'm not offended at all by the frequent polishing, especially in "practice", and in my mind the practice run is not tainted by the excessive polishing.
(practice runs are already distinguished from tournament runs anyway, due to ideal opening break shots, etc).

I take note of Lou's comment that all this polishing must mean something or the top players would not be doing it!

(tennis analogy - weekend hackers play all day with one can of balls, in pro tournaments the balls are replaced every 9 games - clearly pros can tell the difference and dont want to play with even slightly worn balls).
An argument can be made that regular polishing could be "standardized" in pool tournaments as well, cleaned after (say) every 9 racks whether you ask for it or not.
(?)

That's pretty much what I'm getting at -- standardization. Not even so much on these home made videos, but in the case of the 14.1 Challenges. Now we've got them at the Philly Expo, The DCC, and The BCAL in Vegas. Greg may have one in Tunica and another TBD locale.

Having participated in a few and watched many, I note the when a ball polisher is in the room, some players will the balls polished *a lot* and others not at all. At what point does it become excessive? Who decides? What happens when every player starts picking up on this and the 50 ball runners ask to have the balls polished every other rack like the 200 ball runners?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I don't know if "tainted" is the right word or not. I don't think records tell as much of the story as people want them to. Look at the controversy over Roger Maris' 61 home run season, which was done in more games than Ruth had. They were going to put an asterisk in the record book.

So I think Lou's right in saying polishing the balls must give an advantage, but at the same time I wouldn't suggest an asterisk for whoever runs 527. Yes, Mosconi played on an 8 foot table, but then again the balls probably weren't being polished. You can go back and forth endlessly over who had what advantage. I think if you polished the balls with something that made them play differently than normal, then you would have a legitimate grip, and a suspect run.

I understand what you're saying, Dan, but plain vanilla polishing during a run does give an advantage, no?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Just to set the record straight when Corey put the balls in the ball polisher he did not add any polish to the balls, they were just spinning against a dry buffing pad. I knew some people would take offense to it and that's why I was against putting these videos up in the first place.
By the way, Schmidt ran 366 on this table on video. I don't believe the balls were ever put in the polisher during the run.

-Bill

Bill, as someone who owns his own ball polisher I have found that you do not need to add polish to the ball cleaner every time -- there's always a slight build up in the lining of the polisher. If you put polish in every time you'd probably gum up the machine pretty quickly. So just running them through "dry" still polishes then up pretty good from the residual polish in the machine. This is especially true if the table is clean enough to eat off of, like yours, and the balls are in relatively good shape.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Frankly, what a guy does in the privacy of his own home is none of my business, but I really wouldn't want to see this in tournament play. Straight pool is trying to make a resurgence here and we don't need to slow the game down by having players call for the balls to go in the machine every rack. Clean the cue ball on a scratch if you want and let the ref use gloves when he racks the object balls, but that should be about it for competition. Maybe allow cleaning the CB between racks if it has significant chalk build up on it, everyone hates a skidder.

What about the 14.1 Challenges? What should the ball cleaning/polishing standard be for those?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

No.
-----------

er, OK. I guess we're in disagreement.

Lou Figueroa

 

[acousticsguru]

Something else: at the last Straight Pool tournament (a qualifier for the Nationals) I participated in (three weeks ago), I noticed one of my opponents, a very nice guy and fierce competitor, cleaned the balls while racking up for me during a run. While I appreciate the courtesy, and resist replying when people start chatting in moments like this, I couldn't help thinking for a moment there that I was waiting to shoot my next break shot, so much so that after a short while, I sat down.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[lfigueroa]

Very Very well put don't these professional pool players deserve professionally kept equipment just as in tennis or as you mentioned baseball.
Next someone will say they should go back to clay balls. LOL
Don't forget AC is an advantage!

So how often should they be cleaned AND shouldn't they be cleaned equally for all players?

Lou Figueroa

 

[acousticsguru]

So how often should they be cleaned AND shouldn't they be cleaned equally for all players?

Lou Figueroa

I like what the refs do at the European Championships: they wear gloves and clean object balls gently and quickly while taking them out of the pockets, whereas they'll clean the cue ball upon request - provided there is a visible chalk spot on it etc. They'll not allow excessive cleaning, let alone stalling, as when the shot clock is in use, a player has only one extension per rack, and they're well-trained enough to realize players could make a mockery of the shot clock by having the cue ball cleaned any time they need to take a second look.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[lfigueroa]

Well maybe I can shed light on this subject since everytime it comes up I can teach the novices what happens when the balls are altered.

Having the cue ball cleaned by an official every so often is ok but not fair to have done after every rack and it must be done by a neutral towel meaning the refs towel not the players towel because there are a few players out there(wont mention the names) that have silicone on their towel to have buffed on the cueball to gain an advantage.

Anytime the balls are pulled of the table after a run starts the run can only be some kind of practice and the run that the player runs should never be reviewed as on the square and not to count.

When the balls are polished so often the polish makes the balls open up very easy so just look at some videos and when the player doesnt hardly have any clusters the balls have been polished.

If the balls are put into a ball machine with no polish then they are being cleaned and burnished and the heat that the machine buffs into the balls also make them seperate easy on the breakshots and there for again the player almost never has any cluster and can easily get through racks with out much difficulty.

For what it is worth none of the great players from back in the days such as Lassiter,Mosconi,Crane,sigel, varner and so on never used any silicone or ever had a ball polisher so again the way I see it is doing it in practice then whatever but doing it during matched is CHEATING.

I do know that some top players that are still playing like Holmann ran like 412,Cohen ran like 460,Neils ran over 400, and Thomas Engert ran 492 all without any ball polishers or illegal silicone and Ofcourse I never have either with my little run of 311.

Sorry about the long post and if I offended anyone but the truth must be told for people to understand why the balls react like they do.

Thanks for the post, Bobby. (I always suspected the silicone towel thing.)

I think you're right, especially watching the videos, that it is clearly a huge advantage the ways the balls pop open after polishing. I know that even with my own set fresh out of the polisher that at the start of a practice session the balls open up very nicely. And then, after an hour or less not so good. If I go three hours, it gets pretty miserable.

Lou Figueroa

 

[dmgwalsh]

... there are a few players out there(wont mention the names) that have silicone on their towel to have buffed on the cueball to gain an advantage.

That comes as a surprise to me. With polished balls at Derby, Danny Harriman, Niels Feijen, and John Schmidt were very concerned about whether or not the cue ball had been polished and if so with what substance. Cue ball control became quite problematic if it had been polished.

At Derby, I would polish the balls in the polisher and the cue ball would be cleaned by hand, with Aramith polish if anything.

For what it is worth none of the great players from back in the days such as Lassiter,Mosconi,Crane,sigel, varner and so on never used any silicone or ever had a ball polisher so again the way I see it is doing it in practice then whatever but doing it during matched is CHEATING.

Am I dreaming or do I remember EVERYBODY saying that when Willie Mosconi arrived in town to do his exhibitions, he brought his own polished balls and demanded new (slick) cloth? I wonder what the conditions were on his 526 ball run. I hope he wasn't cheating or Bobby is going to have to add an asterisk to the record books.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at -- standardization. Not even so much on these home made videos, but in the case of the 14.1 Challenges. Now we've got them at the Philly Expo, The DCC, and The BCAL in Vegas. Greg may have one in Tunica and another TBD locale.

Having participated in a few and watched many, I note the when a ball polisher is in the room, some players will the balls polished *a lot* and others not at all. At what point does it become excessive? Who decides? What happens when every player starts picking up on this and the 50 ball runners ask to have the balls polished every other rack like the 200 ball runners?

Lou Figueroa

Lou: My memory may be messing with me but I do not remember ever polishing the balls mid run at Derby.

We tried to give a new clean set at the beginning of their first inning. Sometimes, when it was busy, even that did not happen. I do not remember anyone ever asking for new balls during their time at the table.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

I knew some people would take offense to it and that's why I was against putting these videos up in the first place.

Hey Bill,
Over the past two years, I've enjoyed watching ALL of the 14.1 videos of you, John and Corey. I look forward to seeing many more of these videos. Please don't be offended by the comments people are making here about the frequent cleaning or polishing of the pool balls.

As for myself, the Aramith measles cue ball that I play with does accumulate a lot of chalk marks. When I play 8-ball, 9-ball or 1P, I will wipe the cue ball clean with a microfiber cloth after every rack.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Am I dreaming or do I remember EVERYBODY saying that when Willie Mosconi arrived in town to do his exhibitions, he brought his own polished balls and demanded new (slick) cloth? ...

Well, except sometimes a spectator would steal his cue ball.

I think Willie knew better than most what conditions gave him the best chance to run a lot of balls. Dirty cloth, dirty balls, sticky pockets were his enemies.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Frankly, what a guy does in the privacy of his own home is none of my business, but I really wouldn't want to see this in tournament play. Straight pool is trying to make a resurgence here and we don't need to slow the game down by having players call for the balls to go in the machine every rack. Clean the cue ball on a scratch if you want and let the ref use gloves when he racks the object balls, but that should be about it for competition. Maybe allow cleaning the CB between racks if it has significant chalk build up on it, everyone hates a skidder.

What about the 14.1 Challenges? What should the ball cleaning/polishing standard be for those?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, I consider that a competition even if it isn't match play. So polish the balls for the start each attempt. The CB can be marked and polished between racks if an official agrees the CB is sufficiently marked with chalk to possibly affect play or during a rack if there is obviously a foreign object on a ball like a hair or insect. I don't consider chalk or lint from the bed cloth to be foreign objects, so cleaning the CB under those conditions would have to wait until the re-rack. Obviously, any marking and cleaning of the CB should be performed by an official overseeing the competition.

The same should apply for the match play portion of the event.

BTW, on a side note - I don't know why I don't know this but is the 14.1 Challenge played all ball fouls (both the high run competition and the match play)?

 

[wigglybridge]

"BTW, on a side note - I don't know why I don't know this but is the 14.1 Challenge played all ball fouls (both the high run competition and the match play)?"

not Valley Forge. i was there and scoring, it was cue ball fouls only.

and i don't see why anyone would object to cleaning obvious dirt and debris from Any ball at Any time. if it's big enough to see, it's random luck to leave it on there. already got enough of that random luck stuff in our sport.