Poll: Inlayed cues vs. natural wood cues
- Thread starter J&D CUSTOMS
- Start date
classiccues said:
You are correct that most builders are doing it for the love of doing it. It's a job of passion for sure. But there are several that do it & have been doing it for years as a main source of income.
I am not toughing it. In fact, i'm kinda lucky & am doing ok. I do not make my living building cues, so i'm actually pretty slow. But I have several friends who build cues who are not so lucky. Some charge accordingly & some do not, but few are making liveable wages. I am doing well, not exactly on my "second batch of cues", but I will honestly admit that there's no way I could even pay my mortage with cue money. If I were to depend on cues as a source of income, i'd be dumpster diving to feed my kids. I'm not saying anybody should get rich building cues. And I agree that the better the builder, the more he should get paid. And I agree that lousy builders should fail & have to build their status and income. All I want to see is fairness across the board. Pipe dreaming, as you might say. And yes, it's a neat debate.
On topic, I love any cue well thought out & well executed. I'm a cue nut. I love them. But there's nothing better to me than a great piece of figured rosewood.......well, except for maybe that Hawk guy's avatar!!!
Eric Crisp
Sugartree Customs
qbilder said:
Eric,
Nice to meet you. I understand your position entirely on the pay scale. However you're at a point where you can change your position if you deem necessary. I also agree that there should be more standards across the board.
I must commend you on your presence in the secondary market, although my initial comment was with you in mind, I will admit. Not with you personally, just with what people pay for "plain" cues. I also admit I have heard nothing but good things about your cues, so please do not take my comment as a knock on them.
As you like your plain figured woods I tend to go with traditional points and inlays. A Bushka style cue done right will set me off, as a nice piece of rosewood might you. So when I see plain cues going for over 12-15 hundred I always think WTF is that guy thinking. Just my opinion of course.
Anyways a pleasure, hope all goes well, may your cuemaking be prosperous and enjoyable.
JV
"WTF is that guy thinking?"
If that guy is me He's thinking... "DAMM! Look at that fantastic cue!! That sucker is just plain beeee u ti fulllll ."
When I see one of the cues you've described as tripping your trigger I wonder exactly what you have said.. "WTF is thast guy thinking". Those cues just don't do it for me.
Go figure. It really is strange how opinions can differ so completely. A highly figured wrapless cue with 2 or 3 woods and some nice ring work to set them off just make me drool.
If that guy is me He's thinking... "DAMM! Look at that fantastic cue!! That sucker is just plain beeee u ti fulllll ."
When I see one of the cues you've described as tripping your trigger I wonder exactly what you have said.. "WTF is thast guy thinking". Those cues just don't do it for me.
Go figure. It really is strange how opinions can differ so completely. A highly figured wrapless cue with 2 or 3 woods and some nice ring work to set them off just make me drool.
market value
First of all I would like to answer the question related in the thread .. Traditional cues not overly inlayed with good solid wood is better IMO.
As for the off topic that was brought up ... The fact that a dealer/middleman believes he creates/holds market value for a cuemaker could be the most absurd comment I read on this thread. Market value comes from buyers (both dealers and direct buyers)... primary/secondary market it is all the same.
Think of Dale Perry cues, they are priced low if purchased from him or in the secondary .. the fact that they are easily obtainable doesn't help drive the cost of his cues up and that he no longer has support from his previous dealers. A discount offered to dealers is easily discovered from buyers and everyone then see the real market value.
A middleman/dealer that hypes a cuemaker for his own gain really is not doing any service for a cuemaker in the long run. Because we all know once the cuemaker has established himself and doesn't offer the big discounts once offered he will no longer be the cuemaker that is pitched to people looking for cues.
My recommendation to a cuemaker is to never offer the discount, prove yourself and let the market decide what you can sell for!!!!
By the way, Sugartree cues are well know in the short term for their playability. Don't own one, but have hit with a few and they are very nice. Plain jain or not the supply is limited and demand is high = people will pay b/c everyone wants what others have and they can't get a hold of (ex. Hercek, SW, Manzino, Boti, Showman, etc ....)
First of all I would like to answer the question related in the thread .. Traditional cues not overly inlayed with good solid wood is better IMO.
As for the off topic that was brought up ... The fact that a dealer/middleman believes he creates/holds market value for a cuemaker could be the most absurd comment I read on this thread. Market value comes from buyers (both dealers and direct buyers)... primary/secondary market it is all the same.
Think of Dale Perry cues, they are priced low if purchased from him or in the secondary .. the fact that they are easily obtainable doesn't help drive the cost of his cues up and that he no longer has support from his previous dealers. A discount offered to dealers is easily discovered from buyers and everyone then see the real market value.
A middleman/dealer that hypes a cuemaker for his own gain really is not doing any service for a cuemaker in the long run. Because we all know once the cuemaker has established himself and doesn't offer the big discounts once offered he will no longer be the cuemaker that is pitched to people looking for cues.
My recommendation to a cuemaker is to never offer the discount, prove yourself and let the market decide what you can sell for!!!!
By the way, Sugartree cues are well know in the short term for their playability. Don't own one, but have hit with a few and they are very nice. Plain jain or not the supply is limited and demand is high = people will pay b/c everyone wants what others have and they can't get a hold of (ex. Hercek, SW, Manzino, Boti, Showman, etc ....)
classiccues said:
Nice to meet you, too. Fortunately, i'm doing just fine with my cues & pricing is fair for my figuring at my expense to build. I, too, find it outrageous that a plain jane can pull more than $1000, until I actually begin running numbers & figuring costs. For me to build a cue like I build them and sell it for only a few hundred bucks would be literally losing money. That is reputation aside, only factoring in the costs of my equipment, materials & time. My whole objective in this debate is that it's not really outrageous for a price to be what we percieve as high, but actually quite fair. What's outrageous is how some can sell cues & take a loss to do it, or not make enough to compensate him for the time.
I never took offense by you, because I know very few people have actually punched numbers to find the accurate market prices. You, I assume, are a cue nut like the rest of us but not a builder, and therefore only know what you see everyday in the market's prices. What bothered me was the statement, which is not really out of line given the current state of the market. But to me, I see too many fine cuemakers struggling & I can understand things from their point of view. There are two sides to every window. That is why I took offense.
I'm not upset at you or anybody else, by any means. It was just the wrong button at the wrong time. I thought i'd share my feelings of the situation & shed some light on why I feel the way I do. I appreciate your willingness to debate, not fight, and be a gentleman about it.
Take care
Qb
qbilder said:
I totally agree with this statement.
qbilder said:
I am sure there are many different reasons for the wide range in cue prices, not just this. Some have to have the money and must do whatever they can to get it, because of medical, financial, or other circumstances beyond their control.
I will not argue this issue, because I am a heart patient who also just underwent surgery for colon cancer, which turned into a much bigger surgery, from which I still do not have much strength back from. Just know that your assumption is way off base in some situations and to me, it sounds like you are basically accusing all cuemakers of trying to cut other cuemaker's throats, when that is the furthest thing from their minds.
The cuemakers who have built their names through time and truth will remain at the top of the pay scale and be quite in demand. Like any other career, some get lucky right away and some have to work their way up.
SSach said:
Show me where this was said, as you state it here, anywhere in the thread.
When a dealer "holds" a cuemakers price it means he stands by the retail number of the cue. Primary or secondary market. He doesn't try and move it for 5% over his price just for the sake of the sale. That contributes to the secondary market value.
JV (---still looking for what he read...
JimS said:
And thats exactly what the thread is about.. glad you get it.
JV
...........people like what they like.......... a maker can go either way and be successful but what determines that success is the quality, originality, and performance of their work as well as their desire to push the envelope. those type makers in either category are well and equally desired.
J&D CUSTOMS said:
whats the history lesson here?
http://www.palmercollector.com/3rdCatalogScanAd.html
jayman said:
Offer it all (the full spectrum of styles) and potentially cater to every customer preference....
Just a guess.
J&D CUSTOMS said:
Well, my thoughts are that you certainly don't need inlays or even points to get great playability or performance. In the old days the points were supposed to help with the cue's stability as well as adornation, but with modern coring, adhesives, tolerances, etc. they aren't needed for stability imo. Obviously wood selection also plays a great role in this.
As for looks, my personal tastes have always been more partial to moderately adorned pointed cues done in the traditional style (who coulda figured?). That being said, I also love plain janes with greatly figured woods, exposed wood handles, and especially nice ring work that sets everything off.
All inall, you can't go wrong with either style and most importantly nowadays it's pretty tough to find a 'bad' hitting cue. As a whole all cuemakers are doing better work than 10 years ago and building nicer playing cues....but as in anything, some excel at certain things more than others, of course.
I prefer the undisturbed designs created by Mother Nature on my cues. Years ago, I hated wood grain and I called all wood-looking pool cues "table legs". Now, I've learned to really love some of the great natural designs of the wood and I much prefer a fancy-wooded plain jane to an inlayed cue.
I also appreciate inlays, although I prefer the inlays that are "different" than the norm. No inlays is my preference, though.
I also appreciate inlays, although I prefer the inlays that are "different" than the norm. No inlays is my preference, though.
JesPiddlin said:
First of all, i'm sorry to hear about your health. God bless you & your family.
I think you may be reading too far into what I was saying. I was lobbying for cuemakers, not degrading them. I'm on your side. I want to see cuemakers finally get their due. All in all, cuemakers are friends & comrades. But you can't tell me you don't see builders on this very site going at it, trying to bash each other or disqualify each other as builders. I can think of two such incidents within the last six months. One was a couple of builders fighting about sneakies & pricing for them & who was a real cuemaker & not. The other was two builders fighting over machinery & patents & crap. If we all got paid our worth, there would be no tension & cues in general would progress to all new heights of quality & creativity. So I feel it would be great if all got their true worth, and never had to stress selling a cue because they needed the money. I don't know a single cuemaker who can use cues to pay for his home, transportaion, food, clothing and all insurances including health. I seriously doubt one exists, besides production factories. I don't think cuemakers should all be rich. But I think it would be neat if any guy who builds a quality cue could make as much as if he had a 40hr/week job at McDonalds.