Ponderings of the potential ivory ban, legaleese
- Thread starter classiccues
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Its happened many times. One example is possession of eagle feathers. Even if you find one laying on the ground, you can't pick it up. Possessing one is a crime. They made an exception for native americans that used antique ceremonial head dresses with eagle feathers.
I think there should be exceptions for animals that die of natural causes. What do zoos do with irory after a display animal dies? They should be allowed to sell it and use the money to put back into the elephant exhibit. Nothing wrong with that.....and should be fine with the ivory ban groups....at least if they have half a brain that is.
You know, I have never really disliked anyone and feel whether your liberal or conservative let bygones be bygones and go on with life... But this BS, this has me thinking that forget using elephant ivory as inlays, but I think I might want a cue with inlays of liberal bone.
Remember the organizations that are pushing for this get federal money.. to "fight" ivory poaching.. and to pad their own pockets, and then kick that money back into the democratic election fund. Of course they are going to want more money.... These people are using the elephants and their so called agenda for extreme personal gains.
Its a crime they are no better than people collecting welfare checks for dead relatives, or kids they never had.
JV
Remember the organizations that are pushing for this get federal money.. to "fight" ivory poaching.. and to pad their own pockets, and then kick that money back into the democratic election fund. Of course they are going to want more money.... These people are using the elephants and their so called agenda for extreme personal gains.
Its a crime they are no better than people collecting welfare checks for dead relatives, or kids they never had.
JV
Sean,
I actually do not foresee low-balling in the future. But with everyone writing about the pitfalls with this new law, and the discussions all tend to be negatively slanted,
it's hard to remain an optimist....but I am.
All laws and new regulations can be twisted, misinterpreted, misapplied, overturned, repealed, amended....I just believe one of the aforementioned applies and the
boat will right itself when the waves start to subside. In the meantime, if anyone was worried, and wanted to "unload" their cues before the proverbial dam breaks,
then I'm a buyer for them to contact. I am not trying to lowball anyone....keep in mind I appear to be the sole voice on the Forum calling this a overreaction to the reg.
Doing that is contradictory to acting like an ambulance chaser going after cues with ivory at rock bottom prices.......there is not reason to panic...yet.
But if an ambulance drives by and honks at me, I'm ready to take a ride with them. I'd be an idiot not to and if I am wrong about this ivory ban, then I'll be an even bigger
idiot. But you see the cues in my signature......I am screwed if I am wrong about this....but I'm still doubling down on my money by buying more ivory laiden pool cues.
Unlike a few Azers, I buy my cues purely for personal enjoyment & play and not for monetary gain or appreciation. But I believe my cues will not lose value over time based
upon what I paid. The same applies to buying more cues with ivory....the price has to be right to even justify the risk which is becoming pretty sizeable based upon how much
I've invested so far and I'm not finished yet.
I am not in favor of slaughtering animals of any species......but when there is ivory in the United States that been here's legally, and some of this ivory isn't elephant ivory,
as long as that ivory was legal before the new ivory regulation, then I should not be denied the availability of buying or using that ivory. This isn't like Prohibition where all
distilled alcohol sales were against the law, except for medical purposes.
Anyway, I might be wrong and I'll come to regret it financially....which is all the more reason to always acquire these cues at the lowest possible prices imaginable.
Matt B.
I actually do not foresee low-balling in the future. But with everyone writing about the pitfalls with this new law, and the discussions all tend to be negatively slanted,
it's hard to remain an optimist....but I am.
All laws and new regulations can be twisted, misinterpreted, misapplied, overturned, repealed, amended....I just believe one of the aforementioned applies and the
boat will right itself when the waves start to subside. In the meantime, if anyone was worried, and wanted to "unload" their cues before the proverbial dam breaks,
then I'm a buyer for them to contact. I am not trying to lowball anyone....keep in mind I appear to be the sole voice on the Forum calling this a overreaction to the reg.
Doing that is contradictory to acting like an ambulance chaser going after cues with ivory at rock bottom prices.......there is not reason to panic...yet.
But if an ambulance drives by and honks at me, I'm ready to take a ride with them. I'd be an idiot not to and if I am wrong about this ivory ban, then I'll be an even bigger
idiot. But you see the cues in my signature......I am screwed if I am wrong about this....but I'm still doubling down on my money by buying more ivory laiden pool cues.
Unlike a few Azers, I buy my cues purely for personal enjoyment & play and not for monetary gain or appreciation. But I believe my cues will not lose value over time based
upon what I paid. The same applies to buying more cues with ivory....the price has to be right to even justify the risk which is becoming pretty sizeable based upon how much
I've invested so far and I'm not finished yet.
I am not in favor of slaughtering animals of any species......but when there is ivory in the United States that been here's legally, and some of this ivory isn't elephant ivory,
as long as that ivory was legal before the new ivory regulation, then I should not be denied the availability of buying or using that ivory. This isn't like Prohibition where all
distilled alcohol sales were against the law, except for medical purposes.
Anyway, I might be wrong and I'll come to regret it financially....which is all the more reason to always acquire these cues at the lowest possible prices imaginable.
Matt B.
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Out of curiosity, what is the fascination with ivory? It isn't really very expensive and a piece of cake to work with and the final result is nothing special. I like working with MOP. It looks much more interesting a can be tricky to work with.
I would put the value of a MOP inlaid cue higher then ivory all things being equal. Cue makers don't need ivory in the least. Except for existing cues it is kind of a none issue really in the industry. Want something special, work with MOP, gold, silver, platinum, precious stones, exotic wood inlay and much more. Ivory is nothing as far as being special, it's a bore and has been for years.
No testing. There's a codified assumption that it's illegal without the paperwork. Even if it's not ivory, and only looks like ivory.
For me, nothing else hits like an ivory jointed, big pin cue. 'Nuff said.
macguy.....I never thought the construction details of a cue were important....just picked up a cue and if I liked the way it played,
I'd buy it or else just use it if the cue was available (borrowed).
Then I learned by "my personal experience", which does imply this would be the same for you or anyone else, that there are key
features in the cue design which help impart the feel of the cue stroke in your fingers. It's something not every player concurs with
or even believes........ specifically, that the cue joint material is a critical element because it's the cue's assembled transfer point.
I won't impose on your patience, nor bore other Azers, by elaborating my thoughts on the hierarchy of cue joints but suffice to say,
flat ivory (big pin) is what I have learned is the best cue joint. Now others will chime in and disagree by naming a different cue joint,
or entirely dismissing the notion this even matters. Let's be candid.......The game of pool is played between the ears before you ever
stroke the cue ball. If you think this is important, it will be.....if you think it isn't true, then it won't be....for you... for someone else.....not for me.
The last steel joint cue I purchased was a "76 Joss West I bought from Jim Murphy on Az and I just couldn't adjust to the harder feel and hit
compared to my ivory joint cues. I sold that cue and swore I'd stay with what I know works best for me........the weight of the cue is
important with an ivory joint. If the cue has too much weight, you'll lose some of the sensitivity......always go a little lighter when you play
with a ivory joint pool cue.....you'll be amazed at what the difference is.....and then again, maybe not.
Matt B.
I'd buy it or else just use it if the cue was available (borrowed).
Then I learned by "my personal experience", which does imply this would be the same for you or anyone else, that there are key
features in the cue design which help impart the feel of the cue stroke in your fingers. It's something not every player concurs with
or even believes........ specifically, that the cue joint material is a critical element because it's the cue's assembled transfer point.
I won't impose on your patience, nor bore other Azers, by elaborating my thoughts on the hierarchy of cue joints but suffice to say,
flat ivory (big pin) is what I have learned is the best cue joint. Now others will chime in and disagree by naming a different cue joint,
or entirely dismissing the notion this even matters. Let's be candid.......The game of pool is played between the ears before you ever
stroke the cue ball. If you think this is important, it will be.....if you think it isn't true, then it won't be....for you... for someone else.....not for me.
The last steel joint cue I purchased was a "76 Joss West I bought from Jim Murphy on Az and I just couldn't adjust to the harder feel and hit
compared to my ivory joint cues. I sold that cue and swore I'd stay with what I know works best for me........the weight of the cue is
important with an ivory joint. If the cue has too much weight, you'll lose some of the sensitivity......always go a little lighter when you play
with a ivory joint pool cue.....you'll be amazed at what the difference is.....and then again, maybe not.
Matt B.
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I have owned a few, after the first ivory joint Martin cue I owned I pretty much never played with another steel joint cue. I even had a rare Szamboti ivory joint cue with a piloted 14 pin. But if you go back a short time before any of this ivory controversy how many played with an ivory joint, almost none so that is not a factor really.
The new trend and has been for a long time is the flat faced phenolic joint. I would say it's original basis may have been the ivory flat faced joint. Not because of the use of the ivory, but the design. with the big screw and wood to wood joint. For that type of joint Ivory is not indispensable, it's use is totally unnecessary.
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If that was true people would have been clambering for ivory joint cues. How many do you know who play with them, like none. I would say the majority do like the flat faced big pin wood to wood. I have not played with a steel joint cue for probably close to 40 years since I got a Martin.
The feel you talk about I don't really think is so much from the use of ivory as the design. Many of the ivory joints made in the last few years are just superficial. They are sleeved in a thin sleeve of ivory for looks only.
Yes. I'm not w big fan of Ivory. Modern materals get the job done better when it comes to cues anyway. But I don't want to be the one to say someone else shouldn't use it. Some people may like it. They may feel it has certain properties that I don't see. Back in the early 20th century it was a top of the line material. I don't think it is today.
That may be true for some cue-makers and I've criticized a famous cue-maker over his ivory joint but that's entirely just my opinion.
I am in the minority on that one.....let me restate that......I am in the incredibly vast minority with my opinion but that doesn't change it.
Now as far as my cues' ivory joints......sorry you missed the mark......not a bit of steel although my Mottey cue is piloted ivory and
the shafts have brass threads......my Scruggs and Owen cues are flat faced ivory......and the Rauenzahn cue being made is flat faced
ivory.....if it isn't genuine ivory, the cue won't be in my collection.
Besides, I have several posts about all the factors that comprise the hit and feel of a cue starting with the tip to the size of the thread etc.
There's numerous factors but given all the same conditions, i.e., cue specs, a flat faced ivory joint just feels better and therefore plays
better for me. And I know top notch famous cue-makers that would agree with me and I'll name one since he's retired.......Bill Stroud.
There are lots of active great cue-makers whom would pick a flat ivory big pin joint as their personal favorite. This isn't just a coincidence.
But back to the ivory ban, anyone got any further news?
Matt B.
I am in the minority on that one.....let me restate that......I am in the incredibly vast minority with my opinion but that doesn't change it.
Now as far as my cues' ivory joints......sorry you missed the mark......not a bit of steel although my Mottey cue is piloted ivory and
the shafts have brass threads......my Scruggs and Owen cues are flat faced ivory......and the Rauenzahn cue being made is flat faced
ivory.....if it isn't genuine ivory, the cue won't be in my collection.
Besides, I have several posts about all the factors that comprise the hit and feel of a cue starting with the tip to the size of the thread etc.
There's numerous factors but given all the same conditions, i.e., cue specs, a flat faced ivory joint just feels better and therefore plays
better for me. And I know top notch famous cue-makers that would agree with me and I'll name one since he's retired.......Bill Stroud.
There are lots of active great cue-makers whom would pick a flat ivory big pin joint as their personal favorite. This isn't just a coincidence.
But back to the ivory ban, anyone got any further news?
Matt B.
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The construction of the all ivory joint is a factor. Some are a solid slug of ivory and some are more like capped ferrule. Some are threaded on and fairly thick while others have thin walls and are just sleeved on. All ivory joints, but all different. Are you saying just the presences of ivory creates magical powers?
I don't want to debate this I am just saying there are a lot of factors in joint construction even using the same material. The term "Ivory joint" can apply to different design you are not aware of unless you were there when it was made or see it after being broken.
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What good is paperwork from a cue maker. If I buy a small block of ivory, with paper work. Once I turn the block down and make cue parts. How can anyone prove the ivory came from said block?
Larry
Whoa there....step on the brakes......."Magical Powers"?
Can you believe this fellow.....magical powers....like I suggested anything even reminiscent of that.
How can you infer this when there wasn't even an implication of such.....what a gross misinterpretation!
OMG....if you're in that end of the pool, just go swimming by yourself.....I'm done with you.
But 63Kcode does make a great point....from a cue-maker letter to the cue's ferrules, joint, butt cap or inlays.....it's basically an act of hope & trust.
Can you believe this fellow.....magical powers....like I suggested anything even reminiscent of that.
How can you infer this when there wasn't even an implication of such.....what a gross misinterpretation!
OMG....if you're in that end of the pool, just go swimming by yourself.....I'm done with you.
But 63Kcode does make a great point....from a cue-maker letter to the cue's ferrules, joint, butt cap or inlays.....it's basically an act of hope & trust.
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Judging by both of your avatars, I will have to say......HONEY GRT THE KIDS INSIDE! THERES GOING TO BE A SHOOT OUT!
Buckshots...You Might Be Right......I'm Ready.
What was it that Col. Colt said?
Oh yeah, well, I still say more is better.
And look at my cowboy with those sweet ivory grips that cost $650.
Just joking 'bout the grips....it's staghorn but sure comes close.
What was it that Col. Colt said?
Oh yeah, well, I still say more is better.
And look at my cowboy with those sweet ivory grips that cost $650.
Just joking 'bout the grips....it's staghorn but sure comes close.
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So you are saying you have a special design for your ivory joint construction you give to the cue maker?
They don't all make them the same as is with all joint construction. And I will repeat my comment that you didn't seem to enjoy, the presents ivory is not magical. This is your quote I was responding to
Quote
"There's numerous factors but given all the same conditions, i.e., cue specs, a flat faced ivory joint just feels better and therefore plays better for me."
Since not all ivory joints are constructed the same, then I can only assume that all you need is ivory for the cue to feel good regardless if it is a thin sleeve and cap or a solid slug. All the cues you have are top end cues that should play good regardless.
Unless you have a way of knowing the actual construction of the joint on a finished cue you don't know what actual effect if any it really has. I admit if it is a nice selection of ivory they can look nice and if that is the look you want then you have it. Playing qualities are another thing though, there are more factors to consider not just the shear use of ivory.
Vanity is vanity. Materials Science has marched triumphantly onward and ivory has been easily replaced [even SURPASSED] in all aspects except for the mental - no ivory means an inferior cue.
Sure it cracks, but it's just so pretty that it makes you a better player.
The VAST majority of pros have used steel and brass joints for many years past, and phenolic lately. Phenolic joints are probably the best overall because you can get different materials to suit your preference, but oops, it's not ivory.
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