Ponderings of the potential ivory ban, legaleese

classiccues

classiccues

Morgan set complete...
Silver Member
1. Cue collector has 500k in high end cues, all with ivory. Dies... Has receipts showing the 500k, however due to the ban and the fact they cannot be resold, makes them worthless.... Tax?



2. Can you claim your collection as a loss? I mean any different than flood insurance as a homeowner? You have 500k in cues, the government just made non-valued...



3. You get left a legit 1 million dollar Picasso in a so-so frame.. you glue a 3mm ivory dot to the back of the frame and claim you can't sell it, so therefore you cannot be taxed? ;)

JV
 
nice avatar KID......:grin-square: look at all that hair......
 
the situation sucks but WHO wants to fund the legal challenges associated with any of those scenarios???

plus, it would be years of appeals and challenges before it could be heard by the Supreme court to be decided once and for all.

Uncle Sam a.k.a. the tax man will have a problem with any deduction associated with financial loss via legislative rule changes.

but, all the best in your efforts!

Kd
 
So let me pose this question to the cue professionals.

You currently have many tens of thousands of dollars in your inventory, and likely hundreds of thousands for some cue dealers.

At what point do you confine the sale of the cues containing ivory to strictly person to person sales performed only within the state of your current domicile?

And do you foresee these cues you may get stuck with declining in value and how soon? Lots of Azers would like to know how you see this new supposed
challenge to secondary cue sales, presuming of course you concur there's reason to panic?

If this ivory ban is as intimidating as so many portray it, and just consider me a "Doubting Thomas" on this issue, when will cue prices reflect it and how would
you get the cue to a seller in another state? There's almost $7k in two Steve Klein cues laiden with ivory on classic's site and at what point does this ivory ban
undermine those prices?

I just received my cue from Bob Owen two weeks ago and it's laiden with ivory......4 Bushka Rings, flat ivory joint, ivory butt cap, and 50 ivory inlays. Bob told
me he recently made a large, legal purchase of ivory because of this new regulation. And my cue being made by Jerry Rauenzahn will have lots of ivory as well
and its completion date is next year. My point is I'm still paying top dollar for my cues and this ivory ban hasn't affected cue prices that I can see.

JV.......when you start to feel worried about the Feds knocking on your door, and are pressured to deal those Steve Klein cues before being confiscated, please
reach out to me first. The same goes for Joel Hercek & Ed Prewitt cues & Dennis Searing cues.......this law may be the billiards industry's worst nightmare and
I just don't buy it....but I will your pool cues at obviously what can expected to be significantly discounted prices since I'd become stuck with these cues.

What are the professional cue dealers thinking and are they going to keep acquiring cues with ivory, discontinue the practice entirely, and when will prices of cues
currently for sale become affected because it hasn't happened yet?

Thanks,

Matt B.
 
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classiccues said:
1. Cue collector has 500k in high end cues, all with ivory. Dies... Has receipts showing the 500k, however due to the ban and the fact they cannot be resold, makes them worthless.... Tax?



2. Can you claim your collection as a loss? I mean any different than flood insurance as a homeowner? You have 500k in cues, the government just made non-valued...



3. You get left a legit 1 million dollar Picasso in a so-so frame.. you glue a 3mm ivory dot to the back of the frame and claim you can't sell it, so therefore you cannot be taxed? ;)

JV
Click to expand...

1 this came up before, but got settled out of court over some art featuring a taxidermied eagle. Will need to go back to court to find our, so you can bet your ass the IRS is going to value them outrageously and take you to court over it. The outcome of that is uncertain.

2. Not unless the items are lost. Certainly not if intrastate sales are still legal. To claim a loss they'd have to be taken a la 5th amendment.

3. See #1 hell no. That eagle case was for something Sotheby's valued at $0, but the IRS said was worth $67 million. They charged $29 mil estate tax and nearly $12 mil in interest and fines.
 
I think it will change the way guys do business....

Shipping uninsured, but with indestructible packaging. Lets face it they aren't x-raying every package. Sure this is highly risky.

Face to face sales

Dealing with established, known collectors.

Now if they made it illegal to own, that might be a little more extreme with extreme outcomes....

There was a conference Monday the 9th, and I guess it was to hear more concerns. I would love to read about it, so if anyone finds a link, or hears anything please contribute to the thread.

JV


Bavafongoul said:
So let me pose this question to the cue professionals.

You currently have many tens of thousands of dollars in your inventory, and likely hundreds of thousands for some cue dealers.

At what point do you confine the sale of the cues containing ivory to strictly person to person sales performed only within the state of your current domicile?

And do you foresee these cues you may get stuck with declining in value and how soon? Lots of Azers would like to know how you see this new supposed
challenge to secondary cue sales, presuming of course you concur there's reason to panic?

If this ivory ban is as intimidating as so many portray it, and just consider me a "Doubting Thomas" on this issue, when will cue prices reflect it and how would
you get the cue to a seller in another state? There's almost $7k in two Steve Klein cues laiden with ivory on classic's site and at what point does this ivory ban
undermine those prices?

I just received my cue from Bob Owen two weeks ago and it's laiden with ivory......4 Bushka Rings, flat ivory joint, ivory butt cap, and 50 ivory inlays. Bob told
me he recently made a large, legal purchase of ivory because of this new regulation. And my cue being made by Jerry Rauenzahn will have lots of ivory as well
and its completion date is next year. My point is I'm still paying top dollar for my cues and this ivory ban hasn't affected cue prices that I can see.

JV.......when you start to feel worried about the Feds knocking on your door, and are pressured to deal those Steve Klein cues before being confiscated, please
reach out to me first. The same goes for Joel Hercek & Ed Prewitt cues & Dennis Searing cues.......this law may be the billiards industry's worst nightmare and
I just don't buy it....but I will your pool cues at obviously what can expected to be significantly discounted prices since I'd become stuck with these cues.

What are the professional cue dealers thinking and are they going to keep acquiring cues with ivory, discontinue the practice entirely, and when will prices of cues
currently for sale become affected because it hasn't happened yet?

Thanks,

Matt B.
Click to expand...
 
Ivory

Well Bill from Conerstone cues just a month or 2 ago said he buy your big ivory cues. So that seems to tell me their going to go up in value not down. Most all black market things cost more to get or am I wrong.
 
classiccues said:
1. Cue collector has 500k in high end cues, all with ivory. Dies... Has receipts showing the 500k, however due to the ban and the fact they cannot be resold, makes them worthless.... Tax?



2. Can you claim your collection as a loss? I mean any different than flood insurance as a homeowner? You have 500k in cues, the government just made non-valued...



3. You get left a legit 1 million dollar Picasso in a so-so frame.. you glue a 3mm ivory dot to the back of the frame and claim you can't sell it, so therefore you cannot be taxed? ;)

JV
Click to expand...
I don't know a lot about this just what I have read. There has been changes as recently as the last few weeks. Please read this. It looks like we have a 'Squeaky wheel effect here". The pool industry needs to make it's concerns known.

http://americanorchestras.org/advoc...-material/ivory-ban-impact-on-orchestras.html

For some reason this opens at the bottom of the page you have to page up to the top
http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html#7
 
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Is the ACA doing anything about this? At least making their concerns known?

I don't really have a dog in this fight, I don't really like the idea of ivory in the first place and don't own any right now. But if I were a cuemaker or a collector I would certainly be writing letters and trying to organize others to do the same but I haven't heard anything like that.

As I've said before, I'm fine with doing whatever can be done to actually prevent new ivory from being used to quash the demand and marketplace for the stuff, but I don't believe ivory already used in cues should make those cues illegal to sell interstate.
 
macguy said:
I don't know a lot about this just what I have read. There has been changes as recently as the last few weeks. Please read this. It looks like we have a 'Squeaky wheel effect here". The pool industry needs to make it's concerns known.

http://americanorchestras.org/advoc...-material/ivory-ban-impact-on-orchestras.html

For some reason this opens at the bottom of the page you have to page up to the top
http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html#7
Click to expand...

I'd love for someone to point out where I'm misinterpreting the current proposed regulation, but as I read it, unless you possess the documentation providing proof that your cue with ivory joint was made from pre-ban era ivory, then it isn't legal to own. Period! Forget speculation about selling or transporting across state lines. IMO, 99% of all cue owners DO NOT have the CITES documentation that would make your cues legal to own. Therefore, to be hypothetical, traveling across town to play at your local pool hall puts you and cue at risk unless you have the certification.
 
Walkermine said:
I'd love for someone to point out where I'm misinterpreting the current proposed regulation, but as I read it, unless you possess the documentation providing proof that your cue with ivory joint was made from pre-ban era ivory, then it isn't legal to own. Period! Forget speculation about selling or transporting across state lines. IMO, 99% of all cue owners DO NOT have the CITES documentation that would make your cues legal to own. Therefore, to be hypothetical, traveling across town to play at your local pool hall puts you and cue at risk unless you have the certification.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about it. This law is not making it illegal to own. Just selling across state lines. You can own it all day long and sell it to someone within your own state. The documentation is ony required if you sell across state lines. The feds are using the interstate commerce clause of constitution (the only part of the constitution the feds actually like). And, what law enforcement officer is going to be able to identify if its ivory or not? Just don't admit it. Use your right to remain silent.
 
I think to keep things in perspective.......pool cue confiscation isn't going to happen as long as you keep your cues in the USA mainland. Your pool cues
won't be grabbed because is has ivory in it. People are paranoid about the government confiscating their guns and that hasn't happened and won't either.

De Facto enactment with grandfathered exemptions that were already fostered in the regs, well, that's what I foresee in the future. Presently there's just
lots of confusion and Fish & Wildlife will assume a major role in the future. I even posted before Bill Grassley did that I'm seriously interested in buying
your ivory joint cues if the cues were <19 ozs and from an esteemed cue-maker.....but naturally at a discounted rate.....never got any offers.

I think the folks that don't like ivory in pool cues for their own reasons, well, those are the folks most rooting for bad news about the revised regulation on
ivory with the hope it will discourage cue-makers from using ivory and scare away cue owners from even thinking of ordering a cue with ivory. If you start
reading scare messages, just be a little skeptical. The ivory ban does not intimidate me or the cue-makers I'm using and I think it's all a bunch of hogwash.

And I am so confident I'm right that I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I am only interested in buying ivory joint pool cues with ivory ferrules, ivory
inlays, and even ivory butt caps if possible (cues must be under 19 ounces). So if you've got a $5-6k cue (Prewitt, Hercek, Tibbits, Ginacue, Kohara, JMW,
R. Black, Searing, or Black Boar) and you're becoming worried, contact me at "any" time......we can explore a sale but it will be on terms favoring the buyer
considering the potential risks involved since I could be wrong.

bavafongoul@yahoo.com
559-977-6944 (PST)

Matt B.
 
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I posted this link a few weeks back. Anyone wishing to get involved should look at this website. http://www.elephantprotection.org/

Today I received a summary email from them regarding the happenings from yesterday's meeting. They limited speakers/presenters to 2 mins and promptly cut people off. Sandra Brady was apparently not allowed to present David Warther's prepared comments (who was allowed to be present but could not make it to the meeting in person). It was reported that of the 24 presenters, 15 were critical of the ivory ban. Unlike previous meetings, yesterday's was not videotaped.

Here is a link with their recommendations: http://www.fws.gov/international/ad...il&utm_term=0_3a7fb4a39e-a9adf20317-155986413

Here is a link to the written feedback that people submitted prior to this meeting: http://www.regulations.gov/?utm_sou...cketBrowser;rpp=25;po=0;D=FWS-HQ-IA-2014-0019

Next, this group will be presenting its findings to the White House/Task Force and then a decision may be forthcoming.

It is important to note that this proposed "law" is a regulation that is being promulgated through the ruled process.

If you care about this issue and the notion of your federal government trampling all over your property/constitutional rights, once again, I suggest you get yourself involved. Contact your congressmen, senators, media, etc., etc.

Perhaps next, American muscle cars will fall into their cross-hairs.....after all, making those cars illegal that get less than 15 mpg will be for our "common good", right?
 
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Bavafongoul said:
I think to keep things in perspective.......pool cue confiscation isn't going to happen as long as you keep your cues in the USA mainland. Your pool cues
won't be grabbed because is has ivory in it. People are paranoid about the government confiscating their guns and that hasn't happened and won't either.

De Facto enactment with grandfathered exemptions that were already fostered in the regs, well, that's what I foresee in the future. Presently there's just
lots of confusion and Fish & Wildlife will assume a major role in the future. I even posted before Bill Grassley did that I'm seriously interested in buying
your ivory joint cues if the cues were <19 ozs and from an esteemed cue-maker.....but naturally at a discounted rate.....never got any offers.

I think the folks that don't like ivory in pool cues for their own reasons, well, those are the folks most rooting for bad news about the revised regulation on
ivory with the hope it will discourage cue-makers from using ivory and scare away cue owners from even thinking of ordering a cue with ivory. If you start
reading scare messages, just be a little skeptical. The ivory ban does not intimidate me or the cue-makers I'm using and I think it's all a bunch of hogwash.

And I am so confident I'm right that I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I am only interested in buying ivory joint pool cues with ivory ferrules, ivory
inlays, and even ivory butt caps if possible (cues must be under 19 ounces). So if you've got a $5-6k cue (Prewitt, Hercek, Tibbits, Ginacue, Kohara, JMW,
R. Black, Searing, or Black Boar) and you're becoming worried, contact me at "any" time......we can explore a sale but it will be on terms favoring the buyer
considering the potential risks involved since I could be wrong.

bavafongoul@yahoo.com
559-977-6944 (PST)

Matt B.
Click to expand...

Quoted for posterity.

So, let the low-balling begin, huh......:)
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Don't worry about it. This law is not making it illegal to own. Just selling across state lines. You can own it all day long and sell it to someone within your own state. The documentation is ony required if you sell across state lines. The feds are using the interstate commerce clause of constitution (the only part of the constitution the feds actually like). And, what law enforcement officer is going to be able to identify if its ivory or not? Just don't admit it. Use your right to remain silent.
Click to expand...

What I am reading is taken directly from the drafted guidelines. It reads as follows:


Personal possession of legally acquired items containing elephant ivory will remain legal.

By the government's definition that means pre-ban (1976) ivory. That can only be proven with the CITES required certification which may or may not be available from the original maker of the cue. If you have it, I guess you are okay. If you don't, like most of us, your cue is illegal.
 
Walkermine said:
What I am reading is taken directly from the drafted guidelines. It reads as follows:


Personal possession of legally acquired items containing elephant ivory will remain legal.

By the government's definition that means pre-ban (1976) ivory. That can only be proven with the CITES required certification which may or may not be available from the original maker of the cue. If you have it, I guess you are okay. If you don't, like most of us, your cue is illegal.
Click to expand...

I don't know anyone with a certificate that came with their cue. Makers should have received this documentation when they purchased their ivory from legal pre-ban ivory dealers (like Warther). I would say that makers will likely be inundated with requests for paperwork.
 
cueaddicts said:
I don't know anyone with a certificate that came with their cue. Makers should have received this documentation when they purchased their ivory from legal pre-ban ivory dealers (like Warther). I would say that makers will likely be inundated with requests for paperwork.
Click to expand...

How will you match the paper work, if it exist, to the cue? DNA?

Larry
 
cueaddicts said:
I don't know anyone with a certificate that came with their cue. Makers should have received this documentation when they purchased their ivory from legal pre-ban ivory dealers (like Warther). I would say that makers will likely be inundated with requests for paperwork.
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point. I'm advised that Warther, because of this proposed ban, may no longer be a source for acquiring "legal" ivory. That may or may not be a good thing. However, what disturbs me most is the overzealousness by those in control to now criminalize anyone for merely possessing a substance that was perfectly legal to own, trade or sell just yesterday. What's next? Brazilian Rosewood? Gabon Ebony? African Blackwood? Crocodile? Will it be your wallets, belts, cue wraps, purses, furniture, clothing that will be illegal to own?
 
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