Pool Hal.

Hal knew exactly what he was doing! YOU were clueless and you still are.

You do understand hogwash, though. I am convinced of that.

Please let it go, Lou.

Stan Shuffett


So let me get this straight: Hal knew he was putting out wrong/incomplete information (why does that sound familiar...) on his aiming system but got on RSB with his "bad/incomplete" info anyway, produced documents and/or explanations of said "bad/incomplete" aiming system, and would make unsolicited phone calls to forum members (I was not the only one who got one) and try and teach/explain this "bad/incomplete" info... just to have fun? To mess with people? All the while knowing what he was doing?

Lou Figueroa
just wanna be
clear on this
 
I see this arrogance come onto AZB and I just don't believe my eyes any more. I don't care what the past was and what Hal told people. There should be overwhelming evidence by now that CTE is the real thing. There are many players that come through here and advocate it with no personal gain for doing it. How can pro-level players such as Stevie Moore, Rodney Morris, Brandon Shuff, advocate CTE if it were hogwash? How on earth could RandyG, a Master BCA Instructor, teach pivot aiming techniques if they were not the real deal?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. At one time the earth was thought to be flat. Those that believed vehemently did, even against all evidence it was not. It was written word, it was what they were taught and it was what they knew. They hung anyone out to dry that thought otherwise. The only way they changed their ways was by dying.

So the pool flat-earthers know what they were taught, and anything that might suggest otherwise is immediately dismissed. I mean, how can something so radically different actually work, right? Decades of teaching couldn't be incomplete, now could it?

CTE is different, I'll give you that. So different that it takes some real up-front effort to realize it. If you can't get over that hump, you won't get it. Writing a review after a brief attempt to use it? Please. Even with more and more surmounting evidence that CTE is an extremely strong system, these guys will never give themselves an opportunity to experience it, because they have already dug their hole.

I think the whole perception of CTE will be very different in as little as five years. Common knowledge even. It's already changing before our eyes, thanks to one Stan Shuffett. But the flat-earthers will still take their grudges to the grave. So be it.
 
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So let me get this straight: Hal knew he was putting out wrong/incomplete information (why does that sound familiar...) on his aiming system but got on RSB with his "bad/incomplete" info anyway, produced documents and/or explanations of said "bad/incomplete" aiming system, and would make unsolicited phone calls to forum members (I was not the only one who got one) and try and teach/explain this "bad/incomplete" info... just to have fun? To mess with people? All the while knowing what he was doing?

Lou Figueroa
just wanna be
clear on this

Lou , I understand what you are saying but there is a lot to it and it will be discussed later , hopefully resulting in a better understanding for you with your concerns. I think you would think favorable of the whole thing if I were suddenly able to explain to you what I know...that will be later.

Stan Shuffett
 
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I see this arrogance come onto AZB and I just don't believe my eyes any more. I don't care what the past was and what Hal told people. There should be overwhelming evidence by now that CTE is the real thing. There are many players that come through here and advocate it with no personal gain for doing it. How can pro-level players such as Stevie Moore, Rodney Morris, Brandon Shuff, advocate CTE if it were hogwash? How on earth could RandyG, a Master BCA Instructor, teach pivot aiming techniques if they were not the real deal?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. At one time the earth was thought to be flat. Those that believed vehemently did, even against all evidence it was not. It was written word, it was what they were taught and it was what they knew. They hung anyone out to dry that thought otherwise. The only way they changed their ways was by dying.

So the pool flat-earthers know what they were taught, and anything that might suggest otherwise is immediately dismissed. I mean, how can something so radically different actually work, right? Decades of teaching couldn't be incomplete, now could it?

CTE is different, I'll give you that. So different that it takes some real up-front effort to realize it. If you can't get over that hump, you won't get it. Writing a review after a brief attempt to use it? Please. Even with more and more surmounting evidence that CTE is an extremely strong system, these guys will never give themselves an opportunity to experience it, because they have already dug their hole.

I think the whole perception of CTE will be very different in as little as five years. Common knowledge even. It's already changing before our eyes, thanks to one Stan Shuffett. But the flat-earthers will still take their grudges to the grave. So be it.

Monte,
I really appreciate this post!! I think your CTE time reference is right on..

Stan Shuffett
 
Lou , I understand what you are saying but there is a lot to it and it will be discussed later , hopefully resulting in a better understanding for you with your concerns. I think you would think favorable of the whole thing if I were suddenly able to explain to you what I know...that will be later.

Stan Shuffett


ah man, you're not going to pull a John Schmidt on me are you?

Lou Figueroa
 
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Lou, Stan is probably one of the nicest people in the pool world, bar none, and you may be one of pool's best tournament warriors, as many events as you attend. I always enjoy reading your trip reports. I cannot imagine how or why this back-and-forth colloquy has developed the direction it has gone. :sorry:

I know you're like a pitbull with a bone sometimes when it comes to being right, as am I. The color purple comes to mind ;)

But Stan is quite the opposite as far as temperament than you and me. :angel2:

I only wish I had remembered what "Pool Hal" was when I started this thread. I may not have posted it. Truth be told, I thought somebody had spelled "pool hall" wrong. :p

Anyway, let bygones be bygones, for goodness stake. Sometimes we all have to agree to disagree, even though that can be a tough pill to swallow. I know it is for me. :embarrassed2:
 
I am not going to bother to reference that to see what you are accusing John of pulling on you. Since you expected me to know what "pulling a John Schmidt is' perhaps others will know and can share what that means .

I was clear in what I said. I am NOT playing games with you !

Stan Shuffett


Well, I don't know what that means. But I do know that I offered you an explanation and you won't make the effort to understand. (Yet, anyone who cannot fathom your system, despite repeated tries, "isn't trying hard enough."

I also know that you did not provide a straight answer to my questions about HH: Hal knew he was putting out wrong/incomplete information (why does that sound familiar...) on his aiming system but got on RSB with his "bad/incomplete" info anyway, produced documents and/or explanations of said "bad/incomplete" aiming system, and would make unsolicited phone calls to forum members (I was not the only one who got one) and try and teach/explain this "bad/incomplete" info... just to have fun? To mess with people? All the while knowing what he was doing?

So, basically the only thing that passes the common sense test is that Hal, who was extremely ardent about passing on his systems, was sincere, but the systems were no good from the start. And now the best anyone can come up with was "he left stuff out on purpose."

Lou Figueroa
 
Well, I don't know what that means. But I do know that I offered you an explanation and you won't make the effort to understand. (Yet, anyone who cannot fathom your system, despite repeated tries, "isn't trying hard enough."

I also know that you did not provide a straight answer to my questions about HH: Hal knew he was putting out wrong/incomplete information (why does that sound familiar...) on his aiming system but got on RSB with his "bad/incomplete" info anyway, produced documents and/or explanations of said "bad/incomplete" aiming system, and would make unsolicited phone calls to forum members (I was not the only one who got one) and try and teach/explain this "bad/incomplete" info... just to have fun? To mess with people? All the while knowing what he was doing?

So, basically the only thing that passes the common sense test is that Hal, who was extremely ardent about passing on his systems, was sincere, but the systems were no good from the start. And now the best anyone can come up with was "he left stuff out on purpose."

Lou Figueroa
er

I think your obsessed . Why wrap yourself around it like this?
For the good of mankind? Or to try to smear Stan.
 
Lou, Stan is probably one of the nicest people in the pool world, bar none, and you may be one of pool's best tournament warriors, as many events as you attend. I always enjoy reading your trip reports. I cannot imagine how or why this back-and-forth colloquy has developed the direction it has gone. :sorry:

I know you're like a pitbull with a bone sometimes when it comes to being right, as am I. The color purple comes to mind ;)

But Stan is quite the opposite as far as temperament than you and me. :angel2:

I only wish I had remembered what "Pool Hal" was when I started this thread. I may not have posted it. Truth be told, I thought somebody had spelled "pool hall" wrong. :p

Anyway, let bygones be bygones, for goodness stake. Sometimes we all have to agree to disagree, even though that can be a tough pill to swallow. I know it is for me. :embarrassed2:


JAMster, I'm sure Stan is quite pleasant in person. I've been told I am (can be) too :-)

As to the discussion at hand, there's nothing wrong with a little dialogue as long as it stays polite. Certainly we're never going to agree on the merits of certain systems but my only quibble in this case is the explanation proffered for a pretty crazy system that really doesn't make much sense.

To say the man knew it was wrong but put it on the street with missing parts on purposes makes no sense. I know this because I talked to Hal myself -- *he called me* and tried to convince me that his system was sound. And if you ever spoke to him you'd know he was not about deceiving people. He was a true believer in his systems and very badly wanted others to believe too. So the leaving stuff out "for fun" does not pass muster.

Udder than that, I think we're good :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
Well, I don't know what that means. But I do know that I offered you an explanation and you won't make the effort to understand. (Yet, anyone who cannot fathom your system, despite repeated tries, "isn't trying hard enough."

I also know that you did not provide a straight answer to my questions about HH: Hal knew he was putting out wrong/incomplete information (why does that sound familiar...) on his aiming system but got on RSB with his "bad/incomplete" info anyway, produced documents and/or explanations of said "bad/incomplete" aiming system, and would make unsolicited phone calls to forum members (I was not the only one who got one) and try and teach/explain this "bad/incomplete" info... just to have fun? To mess with people? All the while knowing what he was doing?

So, basically the only thing that passes the common sense test is that Hal, who was extremely ardent about passing on his systems, was sincere, but the systems were no good from the start. And now the best anyone can come up with was "he left stuff out on purpose."

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

You are good at spinning! Lol

I was clear in what I said and you keep spinning.

Stan Shuffett
 
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Stating the facts is not spinning... particularly in the absence of any creditable, alternate explanation.

Hal was wrong.

Lou Figueroa

You do not have all the facts! And furthermore you have not worked the facts you think you have.

Stan Shuffett
 
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Jam, what you found is a landmine from a past war:D. Reminds me of a true story from my army days of someone stepping on a landmine from ww2. Luckily it was corroded and the explosives had been compromized. It went off but did almost no damage. To this day I don't know if this guy was mostly lucky or unlucky? :shrug::

I remember Hal posting on RSB Google Groups. He contacted me several times on the offs, wanting to send me a present pertaining to pool. He was so sincere and genuine in his writings, as I recall.

I also sensed he was a senior citizen at that time. When folks age, what brings them pleasure in the autumn of their life is to give to others what they deem as their best treasure. This mini CD Hal sent me was just that, and it pleased him just as much to give it to me as a present as it did me receiving it. I filed it away and forgot about it until the other day.

Poor man, only trying to promote goodness in the pool world, with whatever he could offer. God bless him always! This is what life's meaning is supposed to be all about. Unfortunately, most people don't understand the power of giving to others for nothing in return until it's too late to do so. I'm glad Hal got a chance to share with me. In a way, it makes me feel special. :)
 
I see this arrogance come onto AZB and I just don't believe my eyes any more. I don't care what the past was and what Hal told people. There should be overwhelming evidence by now that CTE is the real thing. There are many players that come through here and advocate it with no personal gain for doing it. How can pro-level players such as Stevie Moore, Rodney Morris, Brandon Shuff, advocate CTE if it were hogwash? How on earth could RandyG, a Master BCA Instructor, teach pivot aiming techniques if they were not the real deal?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. At one time the earth was thought to be flat. Those that believed vehemently did, even against all evidence it was not. It was written word, it was what they were taught and it was what they knew. They hung anyone out to dry that thought otherwise. The only way they changed their ways was by dying.

So the pool flat-earthers know what they were taught, and anything that might suggest otherwise is immediately dismissed. I mean, how can something so radically different actually work, right? Decades of teaching couldn't be incomplete, now could it?

CTE is different, I'll give you that. So different that it takes some real up-front effort to realize it. If you can't get over that hump, you won't get it. Writing a review after a brief attempt to use it? Please. Even with more and more surmounting evidence that CTE is an extremely strong system, these guys will never give themselves an opportunity to experience it, because they have already dug their hole.

I think the whole perception of CTE will be very different in as little as five years. Common knowledge even. It's already changing before our eyes, thanks to one Stan Shuffett. But the flat-earthers will still take their grudges to the grave. So be it.

Hi Monte:

A couple things:

1. You seem to me to be a level-headed guy. I wouldn't use the "flat-earther" analogy, for that is not only a religious-extremist point of view, but is also the tact that "ENGLISH" used in his "anti-pendulum stroke" anti-instructor rants. As per the "$200 for a diploma" thread, we all know what happened with that (we won't be hearing from him for quite a while), and I don't think you want to associate yourself with that off-the-charts extremist analogy. The world has *enough* extremists -- people who can't distinguish between varying shades of gray and instead cling to either the "100% black" or "100% white" signposts. Given the fact that it takes only a modicum of effort to "see" those shades of gray, I just don't see you as one of those lemmings who clings to a signpost extreme because "it's easier."

2. I'm late to this thread, but I'm gathering someone said something about Hal Houle "leaving things out of the explanation of his systems on purpose." Sort of like a Loss Leader, but in knowledge-sharing form. Like Lou says (and I know neither of these guys, except on here), I don't think Hal was/is that type. He gave me the impression that he really, truly, honestly believes in and stands behind his systems, and wanted *everyone* to know about them and use them. Using Loss Leader tactics would be counterproductive to that goal, because Loss Leader tactics are used for financial gain only.

3. You sing the praises of Stan Shuffett, and rightfully so -- this is a guy who's done an incredible amount for the understanding of pool execution by focusing on the aiming aspect, and furthering Hal's systems. However -- and this is a HUGE "however" -- you need to remember the "furthering" aspect. That is to say, Stan himself is still making discoveries, adding things, discovering / coming up with exceptions to the "rules," etc. -- and coming out with a new DVD to show and share the progress he's making in defining the system. In other words, CTE/Pro-1 is an airplane that is still being built while in flight. It is far, FAR from being a "de facto" standard as you seem to cheerlead.

4. Remember that pool is only one of the various cueing sports in the world today. Snooker is the top cue sport by both numbers and prize monies, and I'll go out on a limb and say none of its top-flight (or even just merely accomplished) players use any exotic aiming system like pivot-based aiming (e.g. CTE/Pro-1). And if you compare the playing ability of today's top-flight/accomplished players to yesteryear's players, you'll see that the sheer execution level of today's players has increased over those of yesteryear. In other words, I'd pitch Steven Hendry, or Ronnie O'Sullivan, or Judd Trump, against *any* of yesteryear's players like Joe Davis, Jimmy White, Cliff Thorburn, etc. when they were in their prime. This didn't happen because these new players "found a new way to aim." Nope, the increased skillset came through better understanding of the science of playing the game (i.e. break building) and most importantly, of better fundamentals. Today's snooker players just have better form, and cue better than yesteryear's players. That is what made the difference. And oh yes, talent always comes into play here as well. ;)

Pool will need to have a renaissance like this as well. Aiming is important, yes, but it's not the thing that will suddenly set one player apart from the other. The one with better [practiced] fundamentals will, in the end, prevail. And yes, we know the argument of "what good does having perfect fundamentals do if you can't aim correctly." That is a non-sequitur, because good fundamentals means practice. The more regimented the practice and focus on delivering the cue ball where you intend, the more you hone in, and the more honed in you are, the more accurate your aim. The aim part fixes itself, as long as you practice some kind of system -- whether that be ghostball, fractional aiming, back-of-ball [snooker's "aiming system" if you want to call it that], or the pivot-based aiming systems. In other words, horse (fundamentals) before the cart (aiming).

Just wanted to lean in on this a little,
-Sean
 
Hi Monte:

A couple things:

1. You seem to me to be a level-headed guy. I wouldn't use the "flat-earther" analogy, for that is not only a religious-extremist point of view, but is also the tact that "ENGLISH" used in his "anti-pendulum stroke" anti-instructor rants. As per the "$200 for a diploma" thread, we all know what happened with that (we won't be hearing from him for quite a while), and I don't think you want to associate yourself with that off-the-charts extremist analogy. The world has *enough* extremists -- people who can't distinguish between varying shades of gray and instead cling to either the "100% black" or "100% white" signposts. Given the fact that it takes only a modicum of effort to "see" those shades of gray, I just don't see you as one of those lemmings who clings to a signpost extreme because "it's easier."

2. I'm late to this thread, but I'm gathering someone said something about Hal Houle "leaving things out of the explanation of his systems on purpose." Sort of like a Loss Leader, but in knowledge-sharing form. Like Lou says (and I know neither of these guys, except on here), I don't think Hal was/is that type. He gave me the impression that he really, truly, honestly believes in and stands behind his systems, and wanted *everyone* to know about them and use them. Using Loss Leader tactics would be counterproductive to that goal, because Loss Leader tactics are used for financial gain only.

3. You sing the praises of Stan Shuffett, and rightfully so -- this is a guy who's done an incredible amount for the understanding of pool execution by focusing on the aiming aspect, and furthering Hal's systems. However -- and this is a HUGE "however" -- you need to remember the "furthering" aspect. That is to say, Stan himself is still making discoveries, adding things, discovering / coming up with exceptions to the "rules," etc. -- and coming out with a new DVD to show and share the progress he's making in defining the system. In other words, CTE/Pro-1 is an airplane that is still being built while in flight. It is far, FAR from being a "de facto" standard as you seem to cheerlead.

4. Remember that pool is only one of the various cueing sports in the world today. Snooker is the top cue sport by both numbers and prize monies, and I'll go out on a limb and say none of its top-flight (or even just merely accomplished) players use any exotic aiming system like pivot-based aiming (e.g. CTE/Pro-1). And if you compare the playing ability of today's top-flight/accomplished players to yesteryear's players, you'll see that the sheer execution level of today's players has increased over those of yesteryear. In other words, I'd pitch Steven Hendry, or Ronnie O'Sullivan, or Judd Trump, against *any* of yesteryear's players like Joe Davis, Jimmy White, Cliff Thorburn, etc. when they were in their prime. This didn't happen because these new players "found a new way to aim." Nope, the increased skillset came through better understanding of the science of playing the game (i.e. break building) and most importantly, of better fundamentals. Today's snooker players just have better form, and cue better than yesteryear's players. That is what made the difference. And oh yes, talent always comes into play here as well. ;)

Pool will need to have a renaissance like this as well. Aiming is important, yes, but it's not the thing that will suddenly set one player apart from the other. The one with better [practiced] fundamentals will, in the end, prevail. And yes, we know the argument of "what good does having perfect fundamentals do if you can't aim correctly." That is a non-sequitur, because good fundamentals means practice. The more regimented the practice and focus on delivering the cue ball where you intend, the more you hone in, and the more honed in you are, the more accurate your aim. The aim part fixes itself, as long as you practice some kind of system -- whether that be ghostball, fractional aiming, back-of-ball [snooker's "aiming system" if you want to call it that], or the pivot-based aiming systems. In other words, horse (fundamentals) before the cart (aiming).

Just wanted to lean in on this a little,
-Sean


You lean well, Sean.

Hal was passionate about sharing his knowledge. He didn't leave anything out on purpose or to mess with people.

Lou Figueroa
 
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