Pool Handicapping Boom or Bust !!!!!!!!!!!!!

F

FATS

Registered
Hi I am new to the forum. I was just wanting to know everyones thought on handicapping players for leagues and tournaments. Here in Arkansas we have a statewide tournament organization. We started rating players about 18 years ago. It started out just A or B players then ABC now we rate players from 3 to 12. Initially this was a success with an increase in player numbers and overall morale. As the number of divisions grew the numbers increased until the ratings were 2 to 7. We race to our rating. A 7 would give a 5 a two game spot going to 7. We then went to a 3 to 10 system and have had a steady decline the past 8 years. I contend the long races make our tournaments undesirable. What do you think??????

FATS
 
I almost agree 100% probably 97%. In some cases the handicap has allowed players to compete and get better by playing better players. The hcp does make the better player show more speed than might normally. But this in itself has hurt the game.

FATS
 
What's the alternative? Have open, B and C tournaments? What are the weaker players supposed to do, continue playing in open tournaments even though they don't have a chance? Fewer players means less money.





LastTwo said:
People say the handicapping system is what destroyed pool. Worst idea ever.
Click to expand...
 
Rickw said:
What's the alternative? Have open, B and C tournaments? What are the weaker players supposed to do, continue playing in open tournaments even though they don't have a chance? Fewer players means less money.
Click to expand...

One alternative can be found at home.gate.net/~higgins3/
no www. required
 
Rickw said:
What's the alternative? Have open, B and C tournaments? What are the weaker players supposed to do, continue playing in open tournaments even though they don't have a chance? Fewer players means less money.
Click to expand...
I think open,B anc C tournaments could be the answer. They have worked well in our organization. As for less money. I played in three tournaments last week two handicapped one not. If I had won both hcp tournament I would have won $200 I finished one in the money and one out winning $10. The other tournament was a non hcp tournament straight race to 5 nineball. I win it and win $330. It has been this way as long as I can remember. The best money tournaments are open.

FATS
 
I've had several APA teams ask me to play. I didn't like the idea of handicaps, until my friend reminded me that I played handicap tournaments in golf. He had a point.

So I emailed the APA to ask about there handicap system. The email they sent back was a copy and paste of the handicap info page. I expected this. In my reply I told them that I wouldn't ask a question that was already answered on there site.

You see I wanted the formula and they didn't want to give it to me. My question was, In golf you only get 93 or 94 percent of your handicap basic figure. In other words, in golf, bowling and other handicap systems, the better player is always given a slight edge that their diligence should afford them.

The next three emails beat around the issue, but in the forth email they finally admitted that in their handicap system the less skilled player is given the edge.

Your not going to get the good player into your league with a handicap system like this. It's like saying, 'Let's see what we can do to help out the sandbagger.'

No thanks
CaptJR
 
Rickw said:
What's the alternative? Have open, B and C tournaments? What are the weaker players supposed to do, continue playing in open tournaments even though they don't have a chance? Fewer players means less money.
Click to expand...

Well Rick, all of the professional pool players didn't become as good as they play today by competing in handicapped tournaments, that's for sure. They paid their dues. Anyone who wants to become a good player must do the same. Getting your ego crushed over and over again until that desire to beat those guys gets stronger and stronger, and suddenly you start running over people.

Aside from that, handicapping pool is what destroyed most of the game's action. Instead of people just getting up and playing, people are so careful to match up. If I had a penny for every time I heard a conversation between two players something similar to: "Well you're an 88 speed and I'm a 63, so you have to either give me the 8 ball or two games on the wire blah blah blah".....and it goes on and on, just about everywhere you go. Many pros admit that these handicapped systems are what killed the game, destroyed all the action.
 
Mornin' Capt,

I have inquired on numerous occassions how it works. Not with the APA themselves but with the League Operator. All he will say basically is that it is confidential. He did admit the the League Operator has a lot of leeway in assigning handicaps.

I think maybe TAP has a better system, from what I know of it. All results are sent to the League Headquarters and they do the handicapping. At least that way they are working strickly from a performance statistic. I know that our currrent LO does seem to be more lenient with female shooters.

If you could I would like to see what they sent you. My email - ricksgp@gulftel.com.

Gotta go open the store, later, Pel
 
No doubt handicapping systems have their pluses and minuses as mentioned in the posts above.My home poolhall has a weekly handicap tourney that attracts 25-30 players on a regular basis.Despite the handicap all four A+ players finished in the top 4 as the cream usually rises to the top.On the odd rare occasion I've seen a B player win the thing.Every now and then we get a sandbagger who claims a lower rank than he should. If he finishes in the money a little to often he is moved up and his gig is over.

Local pro John Horsfall plays in a simuliar tournament at another pool hall and seems to win the thing almost 80-90% of the time.This week however he went down in two straight loses to a pair of B players as BS luck can surface itself every now and then, especially in short races to 3 or 4.In our bigger yearly tourneys it's almost allways pros and A+'s left standing in the final 6, because these tourney feature longer races usually to 9.
We use the Pro-A+, A, B+ etc. ranking system.
 
I went to this site. Looks like an open tournament to me. Maybe I misread it?



KBP said:
One alternative can be found at home.gate.net/~higgins3/
no www. required
Click to expand...
 
Generally speaking, I agree with you but that's not always the case. The USPPA is a hcp tournament and while there usually isn't that much money to be made in them regularly, twice a year they have a big tournament in Reno and the winner can win over $3,000. This tournament does attract good players, Amar Kang, Tony Chohan, and Tony Annigoni just to name a few. In order to qualify for the Reno tournament, you have to have played in a certain number of tournaments and have at least 30 score sheets.



FATS said:
The best money tournaments are open.
FATS
Click to expand...
 
I disagree with not getting the good player in, read my earlier post. The sandbaggers are a real problem however that doesn't mean that they can't be dealt with. Tony Annigoni has been working on a method to give more money to those that have increased there rating. Many players like to toss out their rating if it's high, it's kind of a status thing.




CaptainJR said:
Your not going to get the good player into your league with a handicap system like this. It's like saying, 'Let's see what we can do to help out the sandbagger.'
No thanks
CaptJR
Click to expand...
 
FATS, race to your handicap works really well.
As long as you keep track of your players' progress .
You can also have an abbreviated race. Say two 12's race to 8 instead.
 
LastTwo,

What about those players that will never get that good? Don't you know players like that? What are they supposed to do, never play in a tournament? That's really going to help this sport to grow! How many people do you think would play golf if they had no handicapping system?

When players match up for the cash, they "match up" which means adjustments are made. They've been doing this for as long as I've been around, 54 years, and they were doing it long before that. Do you think the best players of yesteryear always got to play everyone even? I don't think so unless they were able to "hustle" someone that didn't know them. The "hustling" is one of the things that gives this game a bad rep, not handicapping.




LastTwo said:
Well Rick, all of the professional pool players didn't become as good as they play today by competing in handicapped tournaments, that's for sure. They paid their dues. Anyone who wants to become a good player must do the same. Getting your ego crushed over and over again until that desire to beat those guys gets stronger and stronger, and suddenly you start running over people.

Aside from that, handicapping pool is what destroyed most of the game's action. Instead of people just getting up and playing, people are so careful to match up. If I had a penny for every time I heard a conversation between two players something similar to: "Well you're an 88 speed and I'm a 63, so you have to either give me the 8 ball or two games on the wire blah blah blah".....and it goes on and on, just about everywhere you go. Many pros admit that these handicapped systems are what killed the game, destroyed all the action.
Click to expand...
 
RJ,

I've played in weekly tournaments that come out just about the same way as what you describe below where the best players usually win. Most of the money for the tournament comes from the weaker players. To figure this out, all you have to do is do the math. If there are 5 good players in a tournament and the entry is $20, that's $100. If ten or 15 weaker players don't get into the tournament, the better players won't either because they know their chances of winning or getting their money back is less likely when all the players in the tourney are as good or better than they are. I don't understand why all the weaker players get in week in and week out. I guess I can understand it if you feel like you're improving but if you're getting drilled every week, what's up with that?



recoveryjones said:
No doubt handicapping systems have their pluses and minuses as mentioned in the posts above.My home poolhall has a weekly handicap tourney that attracts 25-30 players on a regular basis.Despite the handicap all four A+ players finished in the top 4 as the cream usually rises to the top.On the odd rare occasion I've seen a B player win the thing.Every now and then we get a sandbagger who claims a lower rank than he should. If he finishes in the money a little to often he is moved up and his gig is over.

Local pro John Horsfall plays in a simuliar tournament at another pool hall and seems to win the thing almost 80-90% of the time.This week however he went down in two straight loses to a pair of B players as BS luck can surface itself every now and then, especially in short races to 3 or 4.In our bigger yearly tourneys it's almost allways pros and A+'s left standing in the final 6, because these tourney feature longer races usually to 9.
We use the Pro-A+, A, B+ etc. ranking system.
Click to expand...
 
Rickw said:
LastTwo,

What about those players that will never get that good? Don't you know players like that? What are they supposed to do, never play in a tournament?

Rick
I agree with this. I have seen many 3 rated players who try to get better but lack the aptitude. I always believed these players should stay where they belong as the lowest rated players. These are the players handicapped tournaments were made for. It is the players who hide there skill by sandbagging that ruin it. I have played at all levels always feeling it was a good thing to get promoted to the next highest level. If everyone felt this way maybe all hcp systems would work.

FATS
Click to expand...
 
Great post Fats. So, the thing that needs to be done then is to ensure that "sandbaggers" are minimized. I'm not sure how to do that but I think that's where the effort needs to be focused.
 
A lounge I went to quite often started a Weds nite 8 ball league. The first few weeks would bring 30 or so players at 5 bucks each plus the bar added a 100. It was payed out 50/30/20. Because it did not have any form of handicapping their were 5 top end players of which 3 of the 5 won every week. Pretty soon most folks decided all they were doing was peeing away their entry as they had no chance to win. When the entries dropped to about 12-15 the bar quite adding as they were not making enough to make it worth while. Within a month or two the whole thing folded. My point -( I'm sure there is one somewhere )- most folks don't care to play if they continually lose and know they might as well flush the entry down the drain. Now also I feel this only applies to weekly tournaments they run for long periods of time. A lot of people will enter a large tournament just for the thrill of playing with some big time players. When I enter one I just tell the tournament director upfront "This a donation" :D Once they asked me if I wanted to bid on myself in the calcutta. I told them I would rather buy stock in ENRON.

Later, Pel
 
Last edited:
Pelican said:
A lounge I went to quite often started a Weds nite 8 ball league. The first few weeks would bring 30 or so players at 5 bucks each plus the bar added a 100. It was payed out 50/30/20. Because it did not have any form of handicapping their were 5 top end players of which 3 of the 5 won every week. Pretty soon most folks decided all they were doing was peeing away their entry as they had no chance to win. When the entries dropped to about 12-15 the bar quite adding as they were not making enough to make it worth while. Within a month or two the whole thing folded. My point -( I'm sure there is one somewhere )- most folks don't care to play if they continually lose and know they might as well flush the entry down the drain. Now also I feel this only applies to weekly tournaments they run for long periods of time. A lot of people will enter a large tournament just for the thrill of playing with some big time players. When I enter one I just tell the tournament director upfront "This a donation" :D Once they asked me if I wanted to bid on myself in the calcutta. I told them I would rather buy stock in ENRON.

Later, Pel
Click to expand...

Pelican

I can relate all too much. I have seen and been the cause of weekly tournaments going under. I regularly play in a Thursday night tournament that more often than not fills a 40 man field. This has been the most successful tournament that I have ever played . It has run for over 2 1/2 years like this. The tournament director keeps all the hcp fair. But he will occaisionally raise one or two of the top five where they can't or won't win thus giving the lower players a chance of beating them. The lower players still don't win but that occaisional win against an A+ player keeps them coming. The money still goes to the top players but the regular joe's can beat some of them. I don't think handicapping is bad I just wonder if it hasn't hurt pool by causing many players not to step up and take a chance by playing better players. I would have always have been a C player if I had never paid my dues by playing the best. Though many said this was stupid, It made me a better player.

FATS
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top