Pool has NO shot :-(

Njhustler1 said:
In response to the original post, I think everyone kind of missed the boat on this topic. I'll explain :)

etc...

You heard it here first, folks...



Hey! Whatsyoutalkinboutwillis? :D

(Ref post #7 this thread)


Great minds think alike! :)


Edit: I would like to add that I think you phrased it all better than I did!
 
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I did see that post by you. And yes you made a similar valid point. I just wanted to return to the original comparison, which I thought was very clever, of pool vs. fishing. Because it does seem soooo reasonable for one to think that pool should have as much sponsorship as an extremely non-mainstream sport like fishing. However there's a lot more sponsorship science behind the situation and I wanted to make that clear to the original poster and the readers so everyone better understands the hurdles that pool faces.

And hopefully some people pick up on the idea of the players coming to the conclusion that they're gonna have to get sponsorships to support themselves and shouldn't count on the big advertising dollars because their will never be a Citgo or Yamaho or Honda throwing money into the sport.
 
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JAM said:
Me, too! :p

Most of the pool tournaments I go to, the sponsors are pool industry folk. There are not too many non-pool-related sponsors in America, though some do exist, but pretty scarce. Sometimes the non-pool-related sponsors will provide financial assistance to a pro player. In order to get your industry name on, say, TV, a sponsor would have to pay a hefty sum, which most pool industry folk cannot afford.

You see the usual pool industry names at most TV pool events here in the States: Brunswick, Simonis, Sardo, Olhausen, Silver Cup chalk, Master Chalk, et cetera. There are not any non-pool industry sponsors at these pool events on TV.

Diamond made a huge investment in the IPT by providing the equipment. In return, they were/are the official table for the IPT. Today, I fear that the thousands of dollars and time invested did not compensate Diamond for their thousands of dollars and time invested. :(

The only pool player I know who has received name-brand recognition from advertising is Jeanette Lee. Hard work and dedication seems to have paid off, as she is the most recognized American pool player.

I recently was investigating domain names in an effort to get my counterpart a website. I was surprised to learn that my counterpart's namesake was already taken -- "KeithMcCready.com." It is a 3 cushion billiard website. :eek:

Today, the Internet seems to be a good vehicle to promote, advertise, and sell. It is the way of the future. Look at the poker players and professional boxers who have website insignia on their clothing when they are on TV.

I was watching a bowling tournament recently, and the player who won had his own website. The audience at this bowling tournament was filled to the brim with screaming fans. The tournament monies were decent, paying $100,000 for first place. All of the pro bowlers had non-bowling industry sponsor logos on their clothing.

Pool used to have Camel cigarettes, as one example of a non-pool sponsor. Today, I cannot think of any non-pool sponsor in pool. Sad to say, but true!

JAM

I have an advertising hand out for a Texas tournament in 1979. Corporate sponsors:
Coors
Budweister
Pepsi
Coke

Pretty big boys! So what happened, why don't they sponsor now? Maybe the pool community (pool rooms and bars where there is a pool tournament) ask or demand some sponsorship since most of the players and spectators are going to be drinking one or more of these products. Just a thought - it needs to start someplace.
 
John Barton said:
I just finished watching a bass fishing tournament. For an hour they kept switching between boats to show the fishermen pulling fish out of the water. The contestant were all decked out with logos like Nascar drivers, the had "cap cams". Each time a fish got pulled out there was a computer graphic in 3d of the brand and shape of the lure used.

At the end of the show the fishermen all got on stage to present their fish for weighing. There was a screaming crowd of about 500 or so. They cheered for every fish. First prize was $200,000, 2cnd was $100,000.

What chance does pool have in a climate where fishing tournaments have HUGE corporate sponsorship from the event on down to the participants?

You know why, POOL itself is not mainstream. Yamaha, Mercury, Coleman and many others whose logos were all over the place at the fishing tournament are household names. People who don't fish know what those companies do and have used the equipment they make at one time or another in their life.

Ask casual viewers of a pool match who the sponsors are? Blank stares all around. At the fishing thing it was obvious that the Logos were attached to things that are useful to the average viewers.

Just once I'd like to see a 3d shot of the player's cues on a televised billiard match. Maybe that would entice more sponsors to step up and be a part of pool.

OK, the TV coverage, money and sponsorship in Bass Fishing is really nice. However, Bass Fishing has very few tournaments. There are no stops that I know of. So they can always blow some insane amount during those few big tournaments. Not to mention that there are big companies(boat, motor, cooler) who have stakes in that sports.

About the crowd, unlike pool the result of the tournament is determined at the end of the tournament. So crowd gather at that point of the tournament.
 
Nice post Jack, good thoughts. Maybe a request (petition) to Budweiser, Miller, Coca-Cola & Frito-Lay would be in order.

Then a boycott if no reasonable response is received. I understand the BIG companies might not see the boycott initially, but when the owners of all the Pool Rooms quit ordering BUD, COKE & Fritos, the message will be passed upstream.

The spectators need a little lesson along the way, too. Free admission to a tournament should be curtailed & ceased. Players don't get in free, they have to pay a Green Fee, the audience should have to pay too. Nobody in the entertainment field entertains for free. Golf Tournaments, Poker Tournaments & Tennis Tournaments charge admissions.

If we work together (everyone has ideas & Brainstorming is used by every major company in the world) to develop our sport, we will all get more from playing Pool & Billiards.
 
documentary

I don't think we need a reality show as George in VA suggests, I think JAMs idea was expanded a bit, and a pure documentary was filmed, and professionally edited.....

then there would be something to 'pitch' to a cable network and sponsors

I can see it now....starting off late nights,and slowly build a cult following among the non-pool playing public....
 
Njhustler1 said:
In response to the original post, I think everyone kind of missed the boat on this topic. I'll explain :)

The reason fishing has such large sponsors (i.e. Citgo, Yamaha, Honda) is these companies make the ENGINES, BOATS, and GAS that the fishing participants use. This represents probably 99% of the money that can be made in relation to the sport of fishing and its competitions and tv sales rights. Probably well less than 1% comes from the revenue generated bu lure sales and bait sales.

Do you fish a lot? Bass fish? If so, I don't know how you figure that 99% of the money generated from fishing is in the boats and engines and only 1% on bait and lure sales. I would assume that you would include rods and reels with the lure category?

Before moving to Hawaii, I used to bass fish a lot. I have a bass boat. Nothing expensive but it works. I can tell you that I have spent a lot more on my tackle over the years than I have on the boat. Most of that tackle is worthless now. I could probably get a few hundred for everything. But if I sell the boat I could still get a descent percentage of the money back on it.

I think if you ask most serious bass fisherman which actually costs them more in the long run, the boat or the tackle (remember you have to take off resale value), I think most will say tackle. Don't forget, a fisherman will only need one boat but 10 different rod and reels, 50 different spinnerbaits, a pack each of 50 different styles of rubber worms with a few colors of each one, countless numbers of different hooks and a ton of other stuff. That fisherman might use the same 10 things every time they go out but we are packrats, and we keep buying the stuff whether we need it or not.

Also, there are a lot of fisherman that don't own boats and never will. Their dollars are still spent on tackle.

My guess is 70-30. Tackle over boats and engines. Could be wrong though.

Nathan
 
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I'm not really quite so sure as Bass Fishing is just one aspect of fishing sports. Machinery could still be the main commodity. If my hunch is correct the big game fishing people also watch Bass fishing and most of these "hobbyists fishermen" are rich.

So even if a fisherman spend more money on fishing equipments than the boat, I think Bass Fishing and Deep Water Fishing is still a vehicle for selling machines and not necessarily fishing equipments.
 
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crosseyedjoe said:
I'm not really quite so sure as Bass fishing is just one aspect of fishing sports. Machinery could still be the main commodity. If my hunch is correct the big game fishing people also watch Bass fishing and most of these "hobbyists fishermen" are rich.


I guess it depends on the program that someone is watching. For deep sea fishing I could definitley see how more is spent on machinery.

As far as the big game fishing people watching bass fishing, I am not so sure. From my experience here in Hawaii, and other places, most people that are strictly salt water fisherman couldn't care less about watching freshwater fishing, especially bass. Freshwater fisherman are probably more likely to watch saltwater fishing because the fish are usually bigger. This is probably why you will sometimes see freshwater equipment advertised on saltwater shows but it is much more rare to see it the other way around.

I am not sure what "hobbyist fishermen" are. If you mean the guys that are trolling for marlin or something I would have to agree that most of them are much wealthier than most but this is not the average saltwater fisherman. Many of those guys are going to go out on charters where the guides own all the equipment. The most common saltwater fisherman is casting off of the beach.

The average fisherman's household income is between $50,000-$60,000 for freshwater and just over $60,000 for saltwater. That makes since with the coasts having higher wages and costs of living than the middle of the country.

http://www.asafishing.org/asa/statistics/consumer_dem/bc_income.html

Most fishermen are freshwater, 28,000,000 vs 9,000,000 and each freshwater fisherman spends almost 16 days a year fishing compared to about 10 for saltwater. This does not include the guys that freshwater fish on the Great Lakes.

http://www.asafishing.org/asa/statistics/participation/fishing_participation.html


Do you really want to know why fishing can get the sponsorships???????

Sportfishing
44.3 million fisherman
$41.5 BILLION in retail sales
$116 BILLION in overall economic impact

How much economic impact do you think the billiiards industry generates per year?

Nathan
 
And there you have it. The numbers. Pool - $1 billiion per year. Fishing $116 billion.

Pool is what you play after a hard day of fishing. :-)
 
How about Celebrity Billiards Showdown. Either celebrity vs. celebrity or paired in teams with a pro.
 
Few suggestions on getting TV viewers to watch pool like they do fishing. And if you get them to watch, the sponsers will come.

1. Many people watch fishing because they feel like they are going to learn something. The pros show the baits they are using, the color, explain why they are using it, how they are fishing it, and why they chose the location.

Most beginners don't learn that much from watching pool on TV. How about instead of saying "he is going to use low left english on this shot" they also put a picture of a ball in the corner of the screen with a spot showing the approximate area the ball will be hit. Maybe add in a speed guage. Then beginners may be able to learn a little more by seeing how the balls react.

Focus and discuss some of the different bridges used for different shots.

Point out mechanics.

Try to teach something. Kind of like the fishing industry and poker tournaments have done.

2. People watch because they know and either love or hate the people involved. Fishing does a lot of background stuff on the pros. So does poker. With these "sports" the pros are talking anyway and you get a sense of who they are. It is not the same with pool so they have to do more background stories on the players involved. Look at Nascar, they have to do background stories or else everyone would just be cheering for their favorite color of car.

How many times has there been a boxing match come on that you didn't really care about until they did the prefight fighter stories. Then all of a sudden you are involved and want one fighter to win. Are you more likely to watch another fight later if the same fighter is on again???


So my sugestions are to dumb it down so no matter what level you play at you can learn something and get the audience to feel more of a connection to certain players.

Teach them, entertain them, and give them a reason to cheer for someone.

Just my 2 cents.

Nathan
 
Imageek2 said:
How about Celebrity Billiards Showdown. Either celebrity vs. celebrity or paired in teams with a pro.

If you can't get people to watch the top guys play, how are you going to get them to watch amuaters play?
 
tk_it_ez said:
If you can't get people to watch the top guys play, how are you going to get them to watch amuaters play?
I started watching Celebrity Poker Showdown because of the celebrities. I was interested to see how they would be in that kind of situation, and the show looked like a lot of fun. At the time I knew nothing about Texas Hold-em. Zero. Watching taught me the game, so that now I can watch the pros play and be just as interested in their game and strategy. I would never have watched poker on TV if not for Celebrity Poker Showdown. And let's face it, if you put Jennifer Tilly and Dennis Rodman playing pool against each other on television people will watch.
 
JAM said:
Pool needs a personality. Whether it's a tournament soldier, a roadster, or a stone-cold gambler, people cannot appreciate the players if they don't even know who they are. Only when they get to know the players will they then be interested to learn how well the player shoots; thus, pool being accepted into mainstream America as a sport.

JAM

JAM--I could agree & disagree with this statement. Yes people enjoy personality. But what made poker so big is after Chris Moneymaker won the World Series. I am not sure if you have seen this broadcast or have ever met Moneymaker. I have done both. He has the personality of a box turtle. The next year, poker was steam rolling and another box turtle Greg Raymer won. Yes he wore funny glasses but that was about the only personality he showed. Poker got big because the American public can see themselves as these two guys. I don't think you can compare the success of poker on tv with pool. The only factor that is the same is gambling. But people know they can't run four balls in a row. They all think that they could beat the pros playing poker.

I think you have to compare pool more with bowling, as you did. Or golf. Or tennis. None of these sports are overally exciting to watch. And there aren't too many personalities among the players in these sports. Unfortunately, I cannot think of what makes these 3 sports work.

That is crazy that keith's namesake is a 3 cushion site. I wonder if they would sell you the name or are you looking into using one of his nicknames for your dot com.
 
tk_it_ez said:
I guess it depends on the program that someone is watching. For deep sea fishing I could definitley see how more is spent on machinery.

As far as the big game fishing people watching bass fishing, I am not so sure. From my experience here in Hawaii, and other places, most people that are strictly salt water fisherman couldn't care less about watching freshwater fishing, especially bass. Freshwater fisherman are probably more likely to watch saltwater fishing because the fish are usually bigger. This is probably why you will sometimes see freshwater equipment advertised on saltwater shows but it is much more rare to see it the other way around.

I am not sure what "hobbyist fishermen" are. If you mean the guys that are trolling for marlin or something I would have to agree that most of them are much wealthier than most but this is not the average saltwater fisherman. Many of those guys are going to go out on charters where the guides own all the equipment. The most common saltwater fisherman is casting off of the beach.

The average fisherman's household income is between $50,000-$60,000 for freshwater and just over $60,000 for saltwater. That makes since with the coasts having higher wages and costs of living than the middle of the country.

http://www.asafishing.org/asa/statistics/consumer_dem/bc_income.html

Most fishermen are freshwater, 28,000,000 vs 9,000,000 and each freshwater fisherman spends almost 16 days a year fishing compared to about 10 for saltwater. This does not include the guys that freshwater fish on the Great Lakes.

http://www.asafishing.org/asa/statistics/participation/fishing_participation.html


Do you really want to know why fishing can get the sponsorships???????

Sportfishing
44.3 million fisherman
$41.5 BILLION in retail sales
$116 BILLION in overall economic impact

How much economic impact do you think the billiiards industry generates per year?

Nathan


Nathan, I can see that you don't know anything about fishing. Why don't you do some reserch before making these claims!!! :p
 
Jennie,

I think due to Keith's professional status his name is tradmarked. You can probably get the domain assigned to you if the other party is using it to promote billiards in any form. It's called cybersqatting to register a domain in the name of a celebrity without that celebrity's consent. Check around.

We have been able to get a few domains back that were squatted on.
 
JAM said:
In sum, I think the gambling/hustling aspect of American pool is exactly what needs to come forth. If American society accepts poker, enjoys watching it on TV, seeing the poker pros chatting it up with each other, dressed in their shorts and baseball caps, then maybe pool should follow this route. It is obvious that all other avenues have been tried and failed. It's time for something new.

Hey Jam, normally I agree with just about every one of your posts, and on this one I even understand your view. However, there are a few differences between pool and poker. Poker IS gambling, it is the very bases of the game. The game was created as a gambling vehicle. Pool on the other hand was created as a competitve hobby. It then grew into a skilled and artistic recreation. Now when you see a A+ or open player at your local pool hall INTENTIONALLY missing shots, losing position, scratching just to keep an unknowing D+/C player ON THE LINE, that type of hustling does NOTHING to endear our sport to the masses. Or what about the stories of someone getting a gun pulled on them behind a pool gambling debt. Or the worst of all, a player WINNING only to be mugged later that evening. That is the gambling/ hustling that I am talking about. And gambling and pool was tried on TV, remember? It was called "BALLBUSTERS" and it failed in a matter of weeks. Even in poker, have you noticed that we only see the final 6-8 players in a tournament? Where EVERYBODY win some money! I bet you if they showed the 500 or so players that left heartbroken and broke, poker would lose its mass appeal VERY quickly.
 
Gerry said:
I like this thread, and the ideas coming from it. Whoever made the comment about Tiger and Phil NOT gambling? HA! golfers gamble more than pool players. I caddied at Merion Cricket Club for years,and the money that changed hands between Doctors/Lawyers/club Pros and average members was staggering.

I made this statement. And I know your statement to be true. People will gamble at anything. Hell I have seen people gamble on paper football. My statement said "Tiger and Phil" not "Doctors/Lawyers/club Pros and average members". My point is while you don't HEAR of Tiger and Phil (Top Pros)gambling. You commonly hear of Efren and Busta (Top Pros) gambling. So if your were the CEO of let's say Rolex, would you attach your company name to an athlete that is commonly known to partake in illegal gambling?
 
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