Pool has NO shot :-(

StormHotRod300 said:
The reason the " Action " is such a big topic after a tournament is because pool players have to gamble to make money. Hence a reference to TCOM, a person can get knocked out in the first day and make more money gambling than the winner of the tournament did.

I doubt the prize funds will ever be up to the point that gambling is after thought, because the guys who do tournaments love the pressure or action of gambling.

I seriously think the only way billiards has a way of making it big, is by having one uniformed Tour, and combine the resources so you can get the big sponsors and the big prize funds.
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If there is a chance for a larger pay scale in mens pro pool it looks like the UPA is the front runner. I wonder who all they have talked too? I sure it would require a TV schedule of some sort. I would love to see Bud Light or some company like that as a sponser. I believe gambling isn't an issue anymore. High Stakes poker is one of the Game Show Networks highest ratings. We should embrace that side of our sport. During the golden era of pool when Fats and Mosconi was playing, wasn't It well known they gambled?
 
MikeJanis said:
Those sound pretty good Jam.

The next time I do a semi-major event I will use the below dress code and call it the Billiards JAM-boree.

Mj
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LOL! :D I like it. It kind of has a ring to it! :p

JAM
 
Gerry said:
I like this thread, and the ideas coming from it. Whoever made the comment about Tiger and Phil NOT gambling? HA! golfers gamble more than pool players. I caddied at Merion Cricket Club for years,and the money that changed hands between Doctors/Lawyers/club Pros and average members was staggering.

I don't think what you wear during events matters either. Pool needs to market to the masses and especially the younger GIANT oversized clothes wearing sect. Look at the poker players wearing all kinds of silly sun glasses, giant hockey jerseys with "Full Tilt" on them, and the public is scrambling to learn Hold'em. I don't think advertisers are hard to find because of the fact that there is nothing to sell, I don't think the right angle has been found or created. Again, look at poker.....not TOO much equipment needed there right!?;) Could you imagine ANYONE watching poker that was being played for free with no prize money?...yea maybe the guys mom!

In pool we have traditionalists who want to keep the game pure like the image we have from the Mosconi era, nothing wrong with that from a pool enthusiasts point of view...except the masses wont understand it, and will think it's boring as ballroom dancing. Lets not forget, Mosconi and the boys were playing tourneys to WIN money and make a living....or gamble to be accurate.

Then we have GAMBLING "the seedy underbelly" of the game always scoffed at by the purists I feel because thats what has been carrying the game all these years (and they probably can't gamble! ;) ). At the very basic levels, organized pool IS gambling. Leagues, tournaments, quarters on the rail at the bar, I'll playa for a beer, the IPT, they are all about trying to get more back then you put up front....right? which in my book constitutes a wager.

So thats my rant I had to get off my chest when I read someone saying gambling is ruining the game.....not a chance...it needs to be celebrated.

Gerry
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This is a 3 part message beacuse of the pics.


I AGREE, Gambling is very much a part of our sport and should be celebrated just as much as your very own custom cue.

As a promoter I make sure to invite the best gamblers I can to my larger events. The action stirs things up and get's everyone in the room excited.

The next 3 pics are from The Viking Tour Nationals in November of 06. The pics are taken from http://www.insidepoolmag.com/pool_billiard_photos/index.php?cat=19


Below is a pic of the spectators on Sunday viewing the final Match between Steve Moore and Dennis Hatch.
 

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This is a pic of the ACTION ROOM on Saturday night.

See the difference. This (The ACTION) is exciting.

Which picture to you want to be in ?
 

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As a promoter, I choose not to hide the ACTION at my events. In fact, I encourage it. Just ask McCready, Daulton, Deuel or any of the players that have attended my Big events. Several of them will tell you that I have even handed them my bankroll or a few Benjamins so they can get in the pit and stirr things up a bit for the spectators.

In fact, I count on the ACTION so much that we had the tables in the ACTION room pics moved to that location, put new cloth on them and they were both tripple shimmed for that event.

Believe me, the Action rating at this event was phenominal.


I sure hope the players and spectators appreciated it.
 
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exactly my point Mike! 3 deep to sweat the ACTION! barely awake to watch the Finals....oh so correct.

Gerry
 
Gerry said:
exactly my point Mike! 3 deep to sweat the ACTION! barely awake to watch the Finals....oh so correct.

Gerry
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Gerry, it is very important to note that this kind of Action rarely takes place outside of big events. There are many places were the action is good but it's more rare than most think. However, you can always find it at the big events.

I hope we haven't downgraded the importance of the tournaments themselves. Without the tournaments there wouldn't be as much action at one time.

This is why everyone needs to get their butts out to tournaments. Even if you are not in or bettin on the action you will sure enjoy it when the top road dogs get together.


Mj
 
Fleece3 said:
I do agree with you that pool has no shot. However, I believe that the reason we can not get MAJOR sponsors is because of the gambling/hustling aspect. You can even see it here, take ANY major tournament, there will be a couple of posts regarding the tournament itself. Then there will be 3 to 4 times as many posts regarding after hours 'ACTION'. If you were a major corporation would you want you brand name associated with such an image? Pool itself is a very elegant, elite sport (a home table, let alone a home large enough to have a home table, is not cheap). However, until we are ready to let go of the image of Paul Newman in the Hustler, and allow our image to grow, we will forever stand still while the world expands around us.

After all, have you ever heard of Tiger playing Phil for 10 grand on the back 9?
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If gambling is the issue than a casino would be a good sponsor. They sponsor a lot of sporting events. The problem is exposure/$ spent. In NASCAR they have people charting how much TV time each sponsor gets. This doesn't even include all the print coverage, local appearances, transporters going down the highway with their logo and etc. What exposure/$ spent will a billiard sponsor get. A show that is just a filler on ESPN and even at that it gets prempted, and a few spectators at a tournament.

For the most part pool players are cheap. Other than maybe buying beer and cig's the amount spent by pool players is very small compared to other sports. A player buys a cue and case plus a few accessories. For less than $300 the player is off and running. Never needing to spend another dime on equipment. The only expendable supplies are chalk and tips. Big money! How many players buy chalk? I think the majority lift it from the bars and PH's.

Would a sponsor sway me in my decision to use their product? Maybe, but I don't own a Viking or Cuetec. Do any of you? How many own a Sardo rack or even used one?

How many have supported the sponsors of this site? I have bought a Layani and some stuff for Neilsens, and that was because Neilsens was the cheapest and was giving a discount besides. Also purchased from Joe Tucker. If it wasn't for them advertising and participating here I may not have know about them. So some sponsorship pays off but is it worth it? I think their participation in this forum gives them more business and it is free.
 
JAM said:
Years ago, somebody came out with some 9-ball shoes. I remember seeing them. They were sneakers with a 9-ball emblem on them. Kind of goofy-looking, but they were around for a spell! Didn't seem to take off, though! :o

Here's my pipe dream on how to present pool to mainstream America. I say it's a pipe dream because I have no idea how to make it happen, but at any rate, if I could find me a producer, I would be the director! :D

I'd like to bring in a video camera to the U.S. Open. I would interview a variety pool players on the offs, before, during, and after their matches. Then when the tournament came down to the semi-finals, the semi-finalists would be the ones whose interviews on the offs would be used, the idea being to allow the audience the opportunity to get to know the players, up front and close.

The U.S. Open would be an ideal setting to do this in. If BCn and/or Accu-States were willing, the TV table match recordings could be used in combination with the interviews on the offs. As the audience gets the chance to get to know the players, they may be pulled in to see who wins the U.S. Open championship title. The possibilities for this type of "reality show" are endless.

Imagine, as an example, Shane Van Boeing making it to the semi-finals. The video camera could capture some of his match-ups at Q-Masters on the off hours of the event. He's young, amiable, and shoots pretty doggone good. His television persona might hook a few curious onlookers to see how the young lad fared in the event, wanting to watch the broadcast to its conclusion.

Pool needs a personality. Whether it's a tournament soldier, a roadster, or a stone-cold gambler, people cannot appreciate the players if they don't even know who they are. Only when they get to know the players will they then be interested to learn how well the player shoots; thus, pool being accepted into mainstream America as a sport.

JAM
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I had a pair of those shoes and my wife threw them away. I bought them from George Michaels in Reno years and years ago.
 
First, I should say that I prefer pool's current "seedy" reputation compared to more "wholesome" reputations of other sports. It's part of the allure.

I think it will be very difficult to improve pool's status working from the top. As long as pool doesn't appeal to younger generations, pool isn't likely to go anywhere. That's why TCOM helped pool. Are middle aged adults will go out of their way to emulate movie stars? Not likely, but kids, teens, and young adults will.

Get pool into schools. I'm not talking about Physical Education (students get more exercise walking to class than playing pool), I'm talking about Math and Physics. I've yet to see a better Math or Physics lab than a pool table. Math and Physics may be a terrible way to learn pool, but pool can be a great way to learn Math and Physics. Competitive pool in school would also be helpful.

As long as the players gamble, pool doesn't have a good shot at credibility in the public eye. There is a reason that Pete Rose is not in baseball's hall of fame, and there is a reason the Black Sox were perceived as a black mark on baseball. Pool can't have it's cake and eat it too.

To make pool a mainstream sport will require decades of hard work towards that end. Just dumping money into the sport and expecting major changes is not realistic. Poker didn't get popular overnight. The first World Series Of Poker was held in 1970, over 36 years ago, with the goal of increasing poker's popularity with the public. Popularity won't come overnight for pool, either, no matter how badly today's top players would like to see it happen.

Just my $.02.

Good Rolls,
Rasta
 
TheBook said:
If gambling is the issue than a casino would be a good sponsor. They sponsor a lot of sporting events. The problem is exposure/$ spent. In NASCAR they have people charting how much TV time each sponsor gets. This doesn't even include all the print coverage, local appearances, transporters going down the highway with their logo and etc. What exposure/$ spent will a billiard sponsor get. A show that is just a filler on ESPN and even at that it gets prempted, and a few spectators at a tournament.

For the most part pool players are cheap. Other than maybe buying beer and cig's the amount spent by pool players is very small compared to other sports. A player buys a cue and case plus a few accessories. For less than $300 the player is off and running. Never needing to spend another dime on equipment. The only expendable supplies are chalk and tips. Big money! How many players buy chalk? I think the majority lift it from the bars and PH's.

Would a sponsor sway me in my decision to use their product? Maybe, but I don't own a Viking or Cuetec. Do any of you? How many own a Sardo rack or even used one?

How many have supported the sponsors of this site? I have bought a Layani and some stuff for Neilsens, and that was because Neilsens was the cheapest and was giving a discount besides. Also purchased from Joe Tucker. If it wasn't for them advertising and participating here I may not have know about them. So some sponsorship pays off but is it worth it? I think their participation in this forum gives them more business and it is free.
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I think that Harrahs would be an excellent sponser. Look how many Casinos they have all over the country! They even have big spaces to hold such an event! How about the Hard Rock Casinos in Florida?
 
I've been having this interesting idea lately - it stems from the whole idea of the World Series of Poker. How come the payoff is so darn huge on the world series of poker? Come on guys, it has nothing to do with advertisers, its because the entry fee is $10K.

What about a Pool event where everybody ponies up a SIGNIFICANT amount of money, and the winners get to go home with a lot of cash. It could be run like a traditional tournament and work pretty well. BUT...

My idea is to get great money players together in a pool room, have them all put up $10K, give them betting chips (or some other type of markers), and let them have it out against each other, freestyle. The only requirement is that they have to bet at least a certain amount of their cash eash hour, or they lose it and it is redistributed among the other players. Eventually there'll be only a few players left, and it'll really get interesting!

Imagine the fireworks, personalities, interesting prop bets, ect. With a coupld of really good commentators, that would make for some good TV!

Jon
 
JAM said:
Years ago, somebody came out with some 9-ball shoes. I remember seeing them. They were sneakers with a 9-ball emblem on them. Kind of goofy-looking, but they were around for a spell! Didn't seem to take off, though! :o

Here's my pipe dream on how to present pool to mainstream America. I say it's a pipe dream because I have no idea how to make it happen, but at any rate, if I could find me a producer, I would be the director! :D

I'd like to bring in a video camera to the U.S. Open. I would interview a variety pool players on the offs, before, during, and after their matches. Then when the tournament came down to the semi-finals, the semi-finalists would be the ones whose interviews on the offs would be used, the idea being to allow the audience the opportunity to get to know the players, up front and close.

The U.S. Open would be an ideal setting to do this in. If BCn and/or Accu-States were willing, the TV table match recordings could be used in combination with the interviews on the offs. As the audience gets the chance to get to know the players, they may be pulled in to see who wins the U.S. Open championship title. The possibilities for this type of "reality show" are endless.

Imagine, as an example, Shane Van Boeing making it to the semi-finals. The video camera could capture some of his match-ups at Q-Masters on the off hours of the event. He's young, amiable, and shoots pretty doggone good. His television persona might hook a few curious onlookers to see how the young lad fared in the event, wanting to watch the broadcast to its conclusion.

Pool needs a personality. Whether it's a tournament soldier, a roadster, or a stone-cold gambler, people cannot appreciate the players if they don't even know who they are. Only when they get to know the players will they then be interested to learn how well the player shoots; thus, pool being accepted into mainstream America as a sport.

JAM
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JAM,
I described in another thread about a week ago an idea to frame a reality show around pool players. Have a dozen or so players live in a house -- or even in a poolroom -- for some period of time, with tournaments among them, and the loser going home each week, including side action games. Can you imagine Earl and Efren sharing a room with Kid Delicious or Ralf Soquet? And how about throwing Keith into the mix?! What a nightmare! Even have players representing companies like Viking or Brunswick so you can throw in stories about their products. Have lots of player profiles thrown in, showing that people from all walks of life are enjoying the game, and vignettes about the game's history and all the colorful characters of the past who used to capture America's attention. A hundred years ago, newspaper's ran front-page stories about big tournaments. Most people don't know that. Nor do people know the grand history of the game, how it began hundreds of years ago. How many other games/sports exist that have such a grand and noble history?

The reality show theme could have players from all walks of life in one series, then in another maybe have selected pro's who compete in the U.S. Open living together for a few weeks before the tournament. Countless varieties on the theme. Just think of all that is available for this format: amateurs with colorful personalities, pro's (with even more colorful personalities), all-male, all-female, young-old, etc. Throw in some celebrities, too. The reality show format has already been embraced by the American public in everything from singing to dancing to cooking (American Idol, Survivor, Big Brother, Top Chef, and probably another dozen or more variations).

I think it's an idea whose time has come...and if it doesn't happen while the iron is hot, there may never be another opportunity.

George in VA
 
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OK, Mike, it's easy to see which scenario is more exciting.

Question ?? Do the Sweaters & Players have to pay to watch (admission fee to the room).

To the fisherman... Did fishing show up on TV, because some TV Director thought it would be a good idea or did the TV Folks get some letters & cards from fishermen, wanting to see this on their TV??

I would venture to guess that a couple million signatures on a sack full of petitions for recognition, might get someone's attention. A petition sent through email can be printed, taken to the Pool Halls of America for signatures & sent back to a central "HOME" for collecting & then mailed to sponsors & TV Directors. If the folks in charge have a squeaky wheel, maybe they will grease it.

Boycotts work too.
 
ceebee said:
OK, Mike, it's easy to see which scenario is more exciting.

Question ?? Do the Sweaters & Players have to pay to watch (admission fee to the room).

To the fisherman... Did fishing show up on TV, because some TV Director thought it would be a good idea or did the TV Folks get some letters & cards from fishermen, wanting to see this on their TV??

I would venture to guess that a couple million signatures on a sack full of petitions for recognition, might get someone's attention. A petition sent through email can be printed, taken to the Pool Halls of America for signatures & sent back to a central "HOME" for collecting & then mailed to sponsors & TV Directors. If the folks in charge have a squeaky wheel, maybe they will grease it.

Boycotts work too.
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Count me in on passing out the petitions. I'll even help fund it.
 
How about a show where you take a bunch of either a) interested bangers or b) decent (APA 5+ish) players and pair them each with a top pro/instructor. For one month they get lessons and coaching maybe 4-7 days a week. The idea is to see who can improve the most/be the best in one month, 2 months something like that. Starting from relatively equal skillsets, who has the 3 Ds? Maybe you take some young guy who is skilled in another sport, say golf or tennis. He knows how to compete, but has no skills in pool. A marathon runner so you know he has some real dedication (hasn't Corey Duelle run a marathon? Thought I heard that once). Maybe a good chess player? People who need to excel at things.

You take these people, and they get coaching constantly. Maybe they are on teams, I dunno. Every week, they have a new game. Start out with 8-ball because that's "pool". Then move on to 9 ball, 1 pocket, straight pool, trick shots. Snooker, 3 Cushion. You cover everything. A great player of each game co-hosts each week (Efren gets subtitles;-). Contestants are in the same house. Lots of smack talk. There is gambling, but not with cash. Instead, you risk points of some kind. Maybe something that can save you from elimination. Maybe you bet hours of coaching and table time. Hard to get better when you can't play.

For the top prize, maybe you get guaranteed entry fees and airfare to (let's just say) 10 major tournaments for a year. Or maybe just a chunk of cash (but that's lame since you just learned so many new skills).

I don't know if that sounds entertaining to you guys, but at least I had a good time writing it.:)
 
In response to the original post, I think everyone kind of missed the boat on this topic. I'll explain :)

The reason fishing has such large sponsors (i.e. Citgo, Yamaha, Honda) is these companies make the ENGINES, BOATS, and GAS that the fishing participants use. This represents probably 99% of the money that can be made in relation to the sport of fishing and its competitions and tv sales rights. Probably well less than 1% comes from the revenue generated bu lure sales and bait sales.

These companies make millions and millions of dollars a year in revenue from the boats. It's well worth it to them to offer big time dollars to sponsor a tournament and participant if it will get thousands of other fishing boat owners to buy their boats, their engines and their gas.

You don't see Joe Schmo Custom rods or Pete's Back and Tackle sponsoring these tournaments.

So back to the sport of pool. The only real money to be made is from the table providers and the convention hosts. And guess what? Yup, they're the ones who do provide the most bucks. Still the revenue to be generated by them is so much smaller compared to the revenue to be generated by a motor or gas or boat company in fishing. Therefore there's less dollars to promote less pool tournaments.

My suggestion is, since the sport cant provide enough funds for pro players to make a living and compete in tournaments all year long, the players have to take it upon themselves to start spackling their uniforms with logos in every in of space available. I bet in the next few years, someone will do this. And they'll make a ton of money from just the promotions. Enough to support them. And the other players will pick up on it and start doing it to.

You heard it here first, folks...
 
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